A major little word of warning re. EV conversions
Discussion
OutInTheShed said:
You change an old mini to electric, you've totally lost it's identity anyway.
No reason why you should, it is within the remit of changes that allow you to keep the same identity.OutInTheShed said:
in my view it's entirely reasonable that a car with a whole new powertrain needs an IVA.
But that's not what the rules are.OutInTheShed said:
An actual professional would have designed something to operate in its real world regulatory framework.
From what I'm seeing, they did, and then someone decided the regulations should be interpreted in a ridiculous way.I accept that I only have the OP's description and no report on the car etc, but I've met enough people with that kind of attitude problem to believe him.
InitialDave said:
That doesn't help him with having lost the car's original identity, aside from the fact that he shouldn't need to.
I'm really not seeing anything about this situation that indicates anything other than overzealous misapplication of poorly defined rules. It all seems very poor.
not really, the rules are easy to follow and easy to work around. the UK has one of the most flexible arrangements of any country when it comes to building cars. you can make something in your garage, take it for a test, pass the rules and get a reg plate for it.I'm really not seeing anything about this situation that indicates anything other than overzealous misapplication of poorly defined rules. It all seems very poor.
you can modify anything, within the rules or around and its also fine.
if spend time putting lovely 3d CAD's together but mis an important bit of the required rules, this is what happens
bitsilly said:
Thanks all.
The holes were for mounting a plate to mount the batteries. The plate was secured over the cut out box of the original battery so actually removed a stress concentration!
There are many firms doing conversions and you-tube stuff etc. Since I have been having this problem a number of the registrations you see on the TV have been deleted, and some of them are still listed as petrol.
If you are planning a conversion I would ask in detail how they plan on registering it afterwards.
Someone recently contacted me to say after over 2 years the DVLA 'reassessed' his case and said he needs an IVA.
I think they are cynically applying this nonsense to anything which has upset them in the past, but I am bias!
Sadly, I'm not convinced the DVLA is the party at fault here. The DVLA is a sleeping bear that you need to be careful not to wake up. The holes were for mounting a plate to mount the batteries. The plate was secured over the cut out box of the original battery so actually removed a stress concentration!
There are many firms doing conversions and you-tube stuff etc. Since I have been having this problem a number of the registrations you see on the TV have been deleted, and some of them are still listed as petrol.
If you are planning a conversion I would ask in detail how they plan on registering it afterwards.
Someone recently contacted me to say after over 2 years the DVLA 'reassessed' his case and said he needs an IVA.
I think they are cynically applying this nonsense to anything which has upset them in the past, but I am bias!
This is quite key when doing restomods. You always start with a car that is registered already with the DVLA specifically so that you have no need to be asking them for a registration number after the engine swap and all they're discounting is the engine change.
The engine only accounts for 1 point. It's the least relevant part. Most EV conversions don't even inform the DVLA in the same way that almost no one who changes the engine does. You are supposed to update the V5C if you change the engine but it's a grey area on the grounds that in the entire history of the points rule system almost no one has ever done so. But no one wants to be the individual attempting to define a legal precedent!
This is part of the reason why Classic EV modders poke the electric motor into the existing gearbox. This allows you to retain all the other drivetrain components. This retains all your other points.
These are your points as I'm sure you're fully aware:
DVLA 8 Point Rule
5 Points: Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer).
2 Points: Original suspension (front and rear).
2 Points: Original axles (both).
2 Points: Original transmission.
2 Points: Original steering assembly.
1 Point: Original engine.
So with a classic mini that already has a registration and historic classification an EV conversion is no different to any other engine conversion. Whether you drop in a 1275 or an electric motor it's 1 point you've removed.
That's why most EV conversions are kosher. They're done in the same manner as any other engine conversion meaning there is no real issue.
But unfortunately you have fallen foul of the chassis/shell rules.
As you know, the chassis/shell is 5 points. It's the thing you never mess with.
Especially with a mini as it doesn't have a chassis but two subframes linked by the shell. The shell is part of the chassis when it comes to minis so you can't much about with it.
If you're modding something like a Range Rover you can actually mess about with the body as it is a body on chassis design but the golden rule with a mini is that you don't much about with the shell because it forms part of the chassis structure. With minis the body is considered in the same manner as a monocoque.
This means that you weld not drill and bolt brackets. As well as making absolutely sure any changes will be acceptable.
I'm afraid the mistake was drilling and bolting brackets to the floor which meant you risked them arguing that you have 'radically altered the chassis/body' and removing 5 points effectively ending its life as a road car .
. With the engine conversion being to an electric motor they were always going to pay more attention. If you have any recourse it would be to seek damages from the professional who opted to drill these holes in a vehicle where the shell was a part of the chassis. It's that party who is at fault in reality. The DVLA is only really doing what it is supposed to do and while they may seem officious in this example it does sadly read as if they're correct in their interpretation of their rules.
The golden rule of restomodding is to not touch the 5 points and to really think about touching the 2 points. The original car has 14 points and the DVLA are quite generous in allowing you to only keep 8 but you'd be a bit mad to run it that close.
hidetheelephants said:
What is the difference between joe soap replacing his mini boot floor due to corrosion damage and the OP replacing the boot floor because the converter drilled holes where the DVLA decided they shouldn't have, for the express purpose of keeping the DVLA happy? There isn't any.
Correct. But you're basically attempting to have a rational discussion with a mentally disabled bear that you've just woken by shoving a hot spoon up it's harris. It's an organisation that no one ever ends up within due to a towering intellect or having any ambition in life. It will be riddled with jobsworths and those blokes who know everything as out everything yet still go home to mother every night. There will be normals in there but it's always going to be Russian roulette hoping you find one at first contact.
Probably your only path is to replace the floor and convert the car back to original to get the registration back. Then to ask the DVLA from that position how to affix the battery box etc or follow the path of almost all engine swaps since the dawn of the 8 point system.
I watched a repeat of Fifth Gear recharged on Quest this morning (mostly about EVs get it? 
).
Anyway, they were at a place that had converted a 2002 MX5 to an EV. Kit is £16k and £10k labour if you don't fit it all yourself. Almost reasonable, but the point was that he said it was all bolted on. So, that if better batteries and motors come along, it's improvable. Also reversible apparently, unlike some others who cut lots of bodywork out. No mention of if 'holes' were required but I expect so.
However, I searched on the DVLA and the MX5 (reg. N6 NEE) at first failed the MoT in July this year for the following:
Repair immediately (major defects):
Emissions not tested centre and rear silencer missing (8.2.1.2 (d))
There was no test carried out in 2021 while the program was being made. I presume the tester was 'advised' because it passed the next day, 29/07/22 with no advisories, not even a mention of the fact it's an EV with no engine. Is that relevant at a MoT?
New V5c issued 5th September 2022 so presumably the new owner is aware of this..
I mention this because a check on the other database reveals it remains recorded as a petrol vehicle. Hmmm, seems this happens a lot. The ones on Vintage Voltage are mostly still recorded with IC engines. In the event of an incident, I presume the insurance claim will be.... interesting. It may be honestly declared as an EV for insurance but DVLA are none the wiser.
It appears the OP should jut have stayed shtum. Ridiculous, and the DVLA need to have some sort of process for EV converted classics.
). Anyway, they were at a place that had converted a 2002 MX5 to an EV. Kit is £16k and £10k labour if you don't fit it all yourself. Almost reasonable, but the point was that he said it was all bolted on. So, that if better batteries and motors come along, it's improvable. Also reversible apparently, unlike some others who cut lots of bodywork out. No mention of if 'holes' were required but I expect so.
However, I searched on the DVLA and the MX5 (reg. N6 NEE) at first failed the MoT in July this year for the following:
Repair immediately (major defects):
Emissions not tested centre and rear silencer missing (8.2.1.2 (d))
There was no test carried out in 2021 while the program was being made. I presume the tester was 'advised' because it passed the next day, 29/07/22 with no advisories, not even a mention of the fact it's an EV with no engine. Is that relevant at a MoT?
New V5c issued 5th September 2022 so presumably the new owner is aware of this..I mention this because a check on the other database reveals it remains recorded as a petrol vehicle. Hmmm, seems this happens a lot. The ones on Vintage Voltage are mostly still recorded with IC engines. In the event of an incident, I presume the insurance claim will be.... interesting. It may be honestly declared as an EV for insurance but DVLA are none the wiser.
It appears the OP should jut have stayed shtum. Ridiculous, and the DVLA need to have some sort of process for EV converted classics.
The DVLA do have a process for converted classics.
It's an IVA and a Q plate.
Am I correct in saying the comedy points system is not law?
AIUI, the law is if you modify the vehicle in a significant way, it loses its identity.
The points system is just a working implementation of where to draw the line.
If that's wrong, then I'd welcome a pointer to the actual statute.
If people game the points system too much, and whine too much, the bear will consider itself poked and implement a whole new system which is unlikely to be easier.
It's an IVA and a Q plate.
Am I correct in saying the comedy points system is not law?
AIUI, the law is if you modify the vehicle in a significant way, it loses its identity.
The points system is just a working implementation of where to draw the line.
If that's wrong, then I'd welcome a pointer to the actual statute.
If people game the points system too much, and whine too much, the bear will consider itself poked and implement a whole new system which is unlikely to be easier.
OutInTheShed said:
The DVLA do have a process for converted classics.
It's an IVA and a Q plate.
Am I correct in saying the comedy points system is not law?
AIUI, the law is if you modify the vehicle in a significant way, it loses its identity.
The points system is just a working implementation of where to draw the line.
If that's wrong, then I'd welcome a pointer to the actual statute.
If people game the points system too much, and whine too much, the bear will consider itself poked and implement a whole new system which is unlikely to be easier.
The point system works pretty well. You can carry out some pretty significant mods and retain the original identity. It's an IVA and a Q plate.
Am I correct in saying the comedy points system is not law?
AIUI, the law is if you modify the vehicle in a significant way, it loses its identity.
The points system is just a working implementation of where to draw the line.
If that's wrong, then I'd welcome a pointer to the actual statute.
If people game the points system too much, and whine too much, the bear will consider itself poked and implement a whole new system which is unlikely to be easier.
The issue in this particular case seems to be that with minis, along with some other cars, the body is an integral part of the chassis and its seen more as a monocoque so if you muck about with it you're risking 5 points.
You can still lose those 5 points and the 1 point for the engine and hit the 8 point floor and be fine so long as nothing else has been changed.
My point was that there are several firms advertising converting classic cars to become EVs. At huge expense some, but 'man maths' justifies it because it will exempt the ULEZ if 40+ yrs old.
What they don't seem to tell anyone is that you will have to not tell DVLA, maintain its record as having ICE when it doesn't, and run the risk of having invalid insurance to do it.
What they don't seem to tell anyone is that you will have to not tell DVLA, maintain its record as having ICE when it doesn't, and run the risk of having invalid insurance to do it.
sixor8 said:
In the event of an incident, I presume the insurance claim will be.... interesting. It may be honestly declared as an EV for insurance but DVLA are none the wiser.
As long as it’s insured as being converted to EV, then an insurance claim would be valid, the main thing would be to make sure you have an agreed value.sixor8 said:
My point was that there are several firms advertising converting classic cars to become EVs. At huge expense some, but 'man maths' justifies it because it will exempt the ULEZ if 40+ yrs old.
What they don't seem to tell anyone is that you will have to not tell DVLA, maintain its record as having ICE when it doesn't, and run the risk of having invalid insurance to do it.
Why must you not inform the DVLA?What they don't seem to tell anyone is that you will have to not tell DVLA, maintain its record as having ICE when it doesn't, and run the risk of having invalid insurance to do it.
And obviously not a single person is converting an exempt classic so as to be exempt. People are converting them for fun.
V8covin said:
I'm sure I read somewhere there is no provision in the iva test for an electric conversion by an individual person.
Therefore it's impossible to make this Mini road legal until they do.
I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm wrong
Even if you're right, someone will come along to tell you you're wrong.Therefore it's impossible to make this Mini road legal until they do.
I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm wrong
DVLA madness isnt restricted to EV conversions. A friend of mine sent his FHC E Type Jaguar, a car he has owned from new, in to a well known restoration company for a full rebuild. He requested the car be built as a roadster.
It is possible to buy all the panels for this build from Jaguar Heritage, or their suppliers and build the car exactly as Jaguar would have done in the 60’s and probably to a better standard.
Once the restoration was complete the owner informed DVLA under change of body type. Not only won’t the DVLA provide him a V5 registering it as a convertible, they have withdrawn the original V5.
This is for a car that is built to the same specification as an original roadster. His MP has been involved and can’t get DVLA to see sense.
On a mini theme it was not uncommon to cut out a lot of rusty bits and fit a flimsy fibreglass tilting front end, I expect that would make DLVAs head explode.
It is possible to buy all the panels for this build from Jaguar Heritage, or their suppliers and build the car exactly as Jaguar would have done in the 60’s and probably to a better standard.
Once the restoration was complete the owner informed DVLA under change of body type. Not only won’t the DVLA provide him a V5 registering it as a convertible, they have withdrawn the original V5.
This is for a car that is built to the same specification as an original roadster. His MP has been involved and can’t get DVLA to see sense.
On a mini theme it was not uncommon to cut out a lot of rusty bits and fit a flimsy fibreglass tilting front end, I expect that would make DLVAs head explode.
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