Roadsters?

[Risonax]

kambites said:

otolith said:

Risonax said:

Only an old fool, or old person with less than 10 years to go, would buy any current BEV outright, because the chances are in 10 years time, it will be rendered something virtually unserviceable.

Interesting. Why do you believe that? Loads of 9 year old Teslas available, still working, still worth money, still serviceable.

I'd imagine it'll be easier to find someone to service an EV in ten years' time than an ICE vehicle.

Depends what generation of ICE. You can still find people with the skills to repair an 80 year old car. Very late cars (the last new ICEs); yes, the ability to maintain the cars, because of the essential need for factory SSTs, might ell fall off a cliff. Generally easier to maintain cars that do not require consumable-type emissions equipments.

Someone apprenticing on ICE today will be early 30s in 10 years time. Why do you think they will have forgotten how to change a spark plug then? There is a 40 year window before you see the skills start to disappear.

[Risonax]

TheDeuce said:

kambites said:

otolith said:

Risonax said:

Only an old fool, or old person with less than 10 years to go, would buy any current BEV outright, because the chances are in 10 years time, it will be rendered something virtually unserviceable.

Interesting. Why do you believe that? Loads of 9 year old Teslas available, still working, still worth money, still serviceable.

I'd imagine it'll be easier to find someone to service an EV in ten years' time than an ICE vehicle.

Unserviceable because.... It doesn't need servicing

It's power plus an electric motor. That's it. I think our species has reached a point in tech terms at which we can keep such a simple machine in service.

I was not referring to servicing. Servicability is not the same as servicing a car. Of course an electric vehicle will still need servicing for many of the same reasons a ICE car requires servicing. Its not all about the engine, or maybe you drive your car until,the brake warning lamsp come on, and the wires are showing through the treads.

There is corrective and preventative maintanence to consider.

You have 4 phases tom consider.

1. Pre-Life; building the thing. Designing for serviceability, which includes building up stocks of spare parts based on what you think will be the failure rate. Determining preventative maintanance, if any; you propose no preventative maintenance is required at all.

2. Early Life. There is quite a high failure rate in this phase (infant mortaility) and weaknesses in the manufacturing processes are exposed.

4. Useful Life. Now you will get random chance failures, but at a constant rate. Diagnostics become important, so you can anticipate these random failures. A manufacturer has to determine what parts to stock; does it stock all the parts needed, or just some of the parts. There is no legal requirement here. It sometimes is a bit random. Jaguar still supplies XJ X350 cupholders, but no longer the fuel tank straps. That is maybe because they made a ton of cupholders to start off with, but no one thought steel tank straps would rust through. Mazda started deleting NA MX5 parts from 1998 (first destroying the moulds for a front lip spoiler), but in 2020 started remanufacturing certain parts. However, after 30+ years, there are still many NA parts avaialble from Mazda dealerships. Does Tesla even have dealerships/parts counters?

5. Wear Out. Increasing failure as parts wear out. Mechanical parts, such as relays, and frequently used connectors. Electric cars have lots of relays. They are also known for frequently used connectors, with shifting universal standards (standards are not settled yet, so commonality of parts is uncertain as the technology matures). Electronics "should" last 20 years in normal usage.

Some say there is a shift from traditional (experienced) car makers to new (inexperienced) car makers (we will see, though no doubt there will be big name failures).

Those 9 year old Teslas were built in a US factory using a largely traditional supply chain of established American suppliers. The European Teslas are increasingly built in China using a largely nascent supply chain of new Chinese part suppliers. Maybe they will be as good. The ISO certificates say they would.

Incidently, a set of wheels from a Swiss supplier came with Chinese TUV certificates stating they would fit my car. Only they didn't because TUV did not know there were two brake caliper variations.

Maybe in 10 years time you will be able to trot into your local MG dealership and order a new reduction gearbox for your 2024 MG Cyberster sprint car. But I wouldn't bet on it. Because by then, for MG, the MG-C will be a distant memory. Now thats a gut feeling, but I could well be wrong.

[DonkeyApple]

kambites said:

otolith said:

Risonax said:

Only an old fool, or old person with less than 10 years to go, would buy any current BEV outright, because the chances are in 10 years time, it will be rendered something virtually unserviceable.

Interesting. Why do you believe that? Loads of 9 year old Teslas available, still working, still worth money, still serviceable.

I'd imagine it'll be easier to find someone to service an EV in ten years' time than an ICE vehicle.

I've spent the last 6 weeks trying to get an electrician to the house to fix a fault, meanwhile two of my cars have been in for work and out in a day.

[DonkeyApple]

MrTrilby said:

Risonax said:

Hardly anyone I expect will be spending £40k on a car.
Generally, buying a brand new car outright only makes sense if you intend to run it into the ground, otherwise make a bonfire out of £5 notes.

That is not my experience. Our current car cost about that when we bought it new, 5 years ago. We’re changing it in September, through choice and because it suits us rather than being forced to by a lease expiry. Assuming it sells for close to what I think it’ll sell for then it will have cost us about half the amount compared to if we’d taken out a PCP. And during that time we’ve enjoyed a car with manufacturer warranty built with the options we wanted rather than the previous owner’s choices, and we’ve not had to worry about how it was or wasn’t treated by the previous owner.

Horses for courses but buying outright has worked out well enough for us that we will continue doing it. Besides, if you’re worried about saving money then PCP’ing a £40k depreciating asset is definitely not the way to do it.

I agree with the OP when it comes to EVs. Even with an ICE the current underpinning of used values to maintain the year three value for the financing deals is potentially going to be broken by rising interest rates and costs of living. And that's before we consider the reality that the RRP is a false construct to push house debt and to support the year 3 valuation prediction that is essential.

At this precise moment in time, given what is building up in the U.K. and what is coming for car manufacturers, I'm of the view that not owning the depreciation risk of the asset is the right risk call. Pay to stick that risk onto the manufacturers, there just isn't the upside reward going forward to take it on personally.

It matters less if we're talking about boggo, generic transport boxes but is of huge importance for the sillier stuff we tend to like.

We can already see the big pricing disparity between new and used buyers in the EV market but when you look closely it's not because used buyers have vastly lower spending power than new but because the RRP on the new sale wasn't a true value. The true value being the monthly cost and accounting for the potentially enormous tax breaks. Ie, the manufacturers have lost control of the year 3 value they need in order to price their lending correctly.

On top of all that the EV market currently contains a high proportion of early adopters and they will tend to discount used more and apply a greater premium to the next new product.

I've never borrowed money in my life for cars or anything of the ilk, I've worked on the debt side of finance all my life. Personally, for the first time ever, especially if considering an EV, I would use the rigged house finance, paying more in funding so as to specifically push that value risk off my book and onto the manufacture.

And even with ICE, supply restrictions are fading on the manufacturers side and demand is waning on the consumer side as they have less and less money each month with which to over indulge themselves with so if I were buying a new petrol car today unless I planned to keep it forever then I'd pay the extra on house finance to push the real risk back to them.

[Risonax]

If the speculative pricing, following a UK unveiling of a RHD car, is correct, MG may have killed its potential golden goose before it laid. The pricing is ludicrous.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/352253/new-2023-m...

[Nomme de Plum]

Risonax said:

If the speculative pricing, following a UK unveiling of a RHD car, is correct, MG may have killed its potential golden goose before it laid. The pricing is ludicrous.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/352253/new-2023-m...

They are not aimed at the Mx5 market.

I'm sure it's more than many of us would like but there is nothing else to compete at the moment.

[gmaz]

Risonax said:

If the speculative pricing, following a UK unveiling of a RHD car, is correct, MG may have killed its potential golden goose before it laid. The pricing is ludicrous.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/352253/new-2023-m...

Totally agree. The MG name is synonymous with affordable fun sports cars like the MGB and the MG TF. They should be producing a car at the MX-5 price point, about £30K

[Silvanus]

gmaz said:

Risonax said:

If the speculative pricing, following a UK unveiling of a RHD car, is correct, MG may have killed its potential golden goose before it laid. The pricing is ludicrous.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/352253/new-2023-m...

Totally agree. The MG name is synonymous with affordable fun sports cars like the MGB and the MG TF. They should be producing a car at the MX-5 price point, about £30K

It was never going to be anywhere near £30k, it's closer to an F-type in size/performance than an MX-5. Will be interesting to hear how it performs once the road tests get underway.

[DonkeyApple]

They were never going to aim a sports car at the Motobility market and they are trying to drag the brand away from the 'budget my last car' space so I'm not sure £50k is exactly a surprise of an issue.

I wonder if the greater issue is that when you consider the largest male sports car demographic it's men of retirement age so they might not be able to take advantage of BIK.

I think the target market is the demographic that is working, has the income, the ability to utilise tax savings and currently buys many of the convertibles in the U.K., women.

Is this not an alternative to say the Audi TT, SLK etc?

[jinba-ittai]

gmaz said:

Risonax said:

If the speculative pricing, following a UK unveiling of a RHD car, is correct, MG may have killed its potential golden goose before it laid. The pricing is ludicrous.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/352253/new-2023-m...

Totally agree. The MG name is synonymous with affordable fun sports cars like the MGB and the MG TF. They should be producing a car at the MX-5 price point, about £30K

A well specced MX5 is £35K ; then EVs are always going to be more expensive than an ICE based car (for the time being..)

Though I suspect that the £50K list price will be an attempt uplift the brand's image - I bet the monthlies on this will be more in line with what you see for cars with a list of £40K

[jinba-ittai]

TheDeuce said:

kambites said:

otolith said:

Risonax said:

Only an old fool, or old person with less than 10 years to go, would buy any current BEV outright, because the chances are in 10 years time, it will be rendered something virtually unserviceable.

Interesting. Why do you believe that? Loads of 9 year old Teslas available, still working, still worth money, still serviceable.

I'd imagine it'll be easier to find someone to service an EV in ten years' time than an ICE vehicle.

Unserviceable because.... It doesn't need servicing

It's power plus an electric motor. That's it. I think our species has reached a point in tech terms at which we can keep such a simple machine in service.

My cheapo salary sacrifice electric lease car needed its annual service last month - due to the lease constraints I had to take it to my local kwik fit. It was more than amusing listening to the guys there discussing what to do - basically fill up the wiper fluid and check the brake pad wear (which they commented looked almost new)

[DonkeyApple]

They still have all the suspension and steering stuff that will eventually need maintenance. Screens will pack up, lights will stop working. There will be enough to keep some chaps in business. And the expertise that currently exists for taking engines apart will transition over time to the next generation who'll focus on reconditioning and replacing motors and batteries. It's not an area that strikes me as being some kind of catastrophic problem.

[starsky67]

jinba-ittai said:

TheDeuce said:

kambites said:

otolith said:

Risonax said:

Only an old fool, or old person with less than 10 years to go, would buy any current BEV outright, because the chances are in 10 years time, it will be rendered something virtually unserviceable.

Interesting. Why do you believe that? Loads of 9 year old Teslas available, still working, still worth money, still serviceable.

I'd imagine it'll be easier to find someone to service an EV in ten years' time than an ICE vehicle.

Unserviceable because.... It doesn't need servicing

It's power plus an electric motor. That's it. I think our species has reached a point in tech terms at which we can keep such a simple machine in service.

My cheapo salary sacrifice electric lease car needed its annual service last month - due to the lease constraints I had to take it to my local kwik fit. It was more than amusing listening to the guys there discussing what to do - basically fill up the wiper fluid and check the brake pad wear (which they commented looked almost new)

The obvious question is : how much did your annual service cost?

[jinba-ittai]

starsky67 said:

jinba-ittai said:

TheDeuce said:

kambites said:

otolith said:

Risonax said:

Only an old fool, or old person with less than 10 years to go, would buy any current BEV outright, because the chances are in 10 years time, it will be rendered something virtually unserviceable.

Interesting. Why do you believe that? Loads of 9 year old Teslas available, still working, still worth money, still serviceable.

I'd imagine it'll be easier to find someone to service an EV in ten years' time than an ICE vehicle.

Unserviceable because.... It doesn't need servicing

It's power plus an electric motor. That's it. I think our species has reached a point in tech terms at which we can keep such a simple machine in service.

My cheapo salary sacrifice electric lease car needed its annual service last month - due to the lease constraints I had to take it to my local kwik fit. It was more than amusing listening to the guys there discussing what to do - basically fill up the wiper fluid and check the brake pad wear (which they commented looked almost new)

The obvious question is : how much did your annual service cost?

It's included in the lease, but the funny thing is I bet the lease company paid more to KwikFit than what it costs at a Peugeot main dealer which is £65 !!