Discussion
TheDeuce said:
It's probably these smaller EV's that will do the most to getting people on board with an electric car. They're so cheap, so easy and effortless as a run around. Arguably the quiet and smooth drive also elevates them above 'towncar' too - assuming you travel light..
They're fantastic value used and can also be leased new for pretty much what a lot of people spend in fuel and maintenance on an old ICE car. Crazy good value, a no brainer for many. I bet there are people out there driving around an 'economical' old town car that would never believe a far newer electric one could overall actually cost them less over their ownership term.
Absolutely this. We’ve had my wife’s E-Up for a few weeks now and it’s brilliant. After fuel savings it costs around £60pcm and I love driving it. So much so my car got written off recently and needs replacing - I had every intention of getting a 5 yr old 530d estate, but am now seriously considering a BMW iX1 via my company scheme. The 530 will cost £100pcm in insurance and £200pcm in fuel without even taking into account depreciation. Meanwhile the iX1 will cost me £280pcm net and all I’d have to pay for is charging. My only worry is long journeys and the availability and charging costs when on the move. They're fantastic value used and can also be leased new for pretty much what a lot of people spend in fuel and maintenance on an old ICE car. Crazy good value, a no brainer for many. I bet there are people out there driving around an 'economical' old town car that would never believe a far newer electric one could overall actually cost them less over their ownership term.
TheDeuce said:
It's probably these smaller EV's that will do the most to getting people on board with an electric car. They're so cheap, so easy and effortless as a run around. Arguably the quiet and smooth drive also elevates them above 'towncar' too - assuming you travel light..
They're fantastic value used and can also be leased new for pretty much what a lot of people spend in fuel and maintenance on an old ICE car. Crazy good value, a no brainer for many. I bet there are people out there driving around an 'economical' old town car that would never believe a far newer electric one could overall actually cost them less over their ownership term.
I really quite like these electric Mii/Citigo/E-Up triplets, they would be my starting point in the EV world. They're fantastic value used and can also be leased new for pretty much what a lot of people spend in fuel and maintenance on an old ICE car. Crazy good value, a no brainer for many. I bet there are people out there driving around an 'economical' old town car that would never believe a far newer electric one could overall actually cost them less over their ownership term.
A couple of years ago I was looking for a car in this segment, considered these cars but at the time the cheapest on AutoTrader was £20k for a used E-Up! Whereas a petrol 108 was about a quarter of that. The difference in purchase price was sufficient to get something like 130,000 miles worth of fuel, which given the car only does around 2.5k/pa, would mean I wouldn't break even on the EV example for around fifty years. With zero VED and home servicing coming in easily at less than £100/pa, it really made no sense to pursue the EV route at the time. According to AT, my 108 is worth the same, if not a fraction more than it was when I bought it, whereas these Mii EV things are dropping to more sensible prices; 50% cheaper than two years ago which is great for me, as I buy for cash on the used market.
It was a shame as reading this thread, I hear only good things about these little cars. The range would be just about sufficient, although I'd be interested to know the winter motorway range, as that would play a part for me.
And therein lies the problem ( at this point in time). The overall cost can't simply be ignored if it doesn't suit the argument. If you look at my first post about this, my goal was to genuinely discover which was cheapest to run around in, a Mii electric or petrol Fiesta. They are both '20 plates and of very similar mileage.
Because of huge depreciation on the Mii over the last 6 months the figures look very bad currently which is unfortunate but they are what they are. That is only going to affect us if we choose to sell and we don't have any plans on doing that as it is very good at the local runabout stuff, in fact, it's probably the best wee car we have ever had in that respect.
In regard to M'way stuff ( I know others use them for this), it is not great. It is a town car as demonstrated but the low 4's efficiency on a dual carriageway to Perth early this year. I tried various things, eco mode, cruise/no cruise, sitting at 58/60 mph (any slower just makes you a target/sitting duck). We returned via small country roads and through villages for fear of not making it back. I realise some think that 4 m/kWh is good, I do not! We haven't attempted any other similar trips in it since and use something else more appropriate.
If you can get a cheap one and use it for local stuff then it won't disappoint.
Because of huge depreciation on the Mii over the last 6 months the figures look very bad currently which is unfortunate but they are what they are. That is only going to affect us if we choose to sell and we don't have any plans on doing that as it is very good at the local runabout stuff, in fact, it's probably the best wee car we have ever had in that respect.
In regard to M'way stuff ( I know others use them for this), it is not great. It is a town car as demonstrated but the low 4's efficiency on a dual carriageway to Perth early this year. I tried various things, eco mode, cruise/no cruise, sitting at 58/60 mph (any slower just makes you a target/sitting duck). We returned via small country roads and through villages for fear of not making it back. I realise some think that 4 m/kWh is good, I do not! We haven't attempted any other similar trips in it since and use something else more appropriate.
If you can get a cheap one and use it for local stuff then it won't disappoint.
stickylabels said:
And therein lies the problem ( at this point in time). The overall cost can't simply be ignored if it doesn't suit the argument. If you look at my first post about this, my goal was to genuinely discover which was cheapest to run around in, a Mii electric or petrol Fiesta. They are both '20 plates and of very similar mileage.
Because of huge depreciation on the Mii over the last 6 months the figures look very bad currently which is unfortunate but they are what they are. That is only going to affect us if we choose to sell and we don't have any plans on doing that as it is very good at the local runabout stuff, in fact, it's probably the best wee car we have ever had in that respect.
In regard to M'way stuff ( I know others use them for this), it is not great. It is a town car as demonstrated but the low 4's efficiency on a dual carriageway to Perth early this year. I tried various things, eco mode, cruise/no cruise, sitting at 58/60 mph (any slower just makes you a target/sitting duck). We returned via small country roads and through villages for fear of not making it back. I realise some think that 4 m/kWh is good, I do not! We haven't attempted any other similar trips in it since and use something else more appropriate.
If you can get a cheap one and use it for local stuff then it won't disappoint.
The cost thing isn't there anymore though really. You can get a used EV for ICE comparable money now, especially if you factor in running costs...Because of huge depreciation on the Mii over the last 6 months the figures look very bad currently which is unfortunate but they are what they are. That is only going to affect us if we choose to sell and we don't have any plans on doing that as it is very good at the local runabout stuff, in fact, it's probably the best wee car we have ever had in that respect.
In regard to M'way stuff ( I know others use them for this), it is not great. It is a town car as demonstrated but the low 4's efficiency on a dual carriageway to Perth early this year. I tried various things, eco mode, cruise/no cruise, sitting at 58/60 mph (any slower just makes you a target/sitting duck). We returned via small country roads and through villages for fear of not making it back. I realise some think that 4 m/kWh is good, I do not! We haven't attempted any other similar trips in it since and use something else more appropriate.
If you can get a cheap one and use it for local stuff then it won't disappoint.
The new cost isnt really a factor as most new cars in general start as lease/company cars which then go on to be bargains on the used market.
Thus the used market is starting to get very healthy and will surely over the next few years accelerate the drop in value and retirement age of older ICE cars. There is a very large chunk of the population that really doesn't need a large car or great range, they will start to pay attention to super low running costs for EV's as they become affordable as used cars.
As far as I can tell there isn't anything similar unless e-Up or Citigo that are more or less identical although beware Citi Gos with only slow charging.
At this point, my balance sheet disproves the cost equality between small petrol/electric. Both were bought 2nd hand, low miles one private owner. At the time they were both slightly below ball park prices.
The figures don't lie, it's all there in black and white. As said, depreciation of over 40% on a used Mii versus around 10% on the petrol Fiesta over twice the time span. It doesn't matter how cheap your electric/charging is, it will take some time and plenty of miles to sort that or a complete about face within the markets.
If you have to charge away from home/work then it's even worse. As said previously, this won't suit many peoples' arguments for pro EV but these are my own current and up to date facts. Once we start adding RFL from '25 that gets even worse as it will be exactly the same price as the Fiesta.
So yes, IF you can buy an EV cheaply and charge cheaply you can still just about beat the system, or, keep what you have and run it 'til it dies! At the moment, a petrol Fiesta wins (sorry....)
At this point, my balance sheet disproves the cost equality between small petrol/electric. Both were bought 2nd hand, low miles one private owner. At the time they were both slightly below ball park prices.
The figures don't lie, it's all there in black and white. As said, depreciation of over 40% on a used Mii versus around 10% on the petrol Fiesta over twice the time span. It doesn't matter how cheap your electric/charging is, it will take some time and plenty of miles to sort that or a complete about face within the markets.
If you have to charge away from home/work then it's even worse. As said previously, this won't suit many peoples' arguments for pro EV but these are my own current and up to date facts. Once we start adding RFL from '25 that gets even worse as it will be exactly the same price as the Fiesta.
So yes, IF you can buy an EV cheaply and charge cheaply you can still just about beat the system, or, keep what you have and run it 'til it dies! At the moment, a petrol Fiesta wins (sorry....)
I had a Mii as a courtesy car recently - interesting because the controls are like it's an ICE that's been made electric (which it is) - proper handbrake, put the key in the 'ignition' and turn it, rather than others that have been fully designed as electric.
When I put my foot down, not to the floor only about half way, to come out of a junction, it went like a rocket!
I'd still want to have something in the family fleet that would go further for long distance trips, but seems pretty good for the price - ebay has them at 10/11,000.
When I put my foot down, not to the floor only about half way, to come out of a junction, it went like a rocket!
I'd still want to have something in the family fleet that would go further for long distance trips, but seems pretty good for the price - ebay has them at 10/11,000.
john2443 said:
I had a Mii as a courtesy car recently - interesting because the controls are like it's an ICE that's been made electric (which it is) - proper handbrake, put the key in the 'ignition' and turn it, rather than others that have been fully designed as electric.
When I put my foot down, not to the floor only about half way, to come out of a junction, it went like a rocket!
I'd still want to have something in the family fleet that would go further for long distance trips, but seems pretty good for the price - ebay has them at 10/11,000.
And this is how it starts. Now you know how profecient these little EV's are, you start to do the maths and realise it's a perfect second car. And you have the safety net of having a main family ICE car.When I put my foot down, not to the floor only about half way, to come out of a junction, it went like a rocket!
I'd still want to have something in the family fleet that would go further for long distance trips, but seems pretty good for the price - ebay has them at 10/11,000.
But then a few more years down the line and you also want to replace the family car... at that point I bet a lot of people having got used to electric will look to find a 250 mile+ range EV as their experience with EV will have given them the confidence. Also, by that point, you're likely very keen for the drive quality of EV even if you do still have some concerns about practicality. I did!
As I said earlier, people really need time with an EV for the benefits to start to stack up against the occasional short comings.
My 2 year old e-up just came to the end of it's PCH lease term. I asked VWFS for a quote to buy it, they wanted £14k which didn't really strike me as worth it (when you look how much other EV's have fallen in value) so handed it back. Twas a fun little efficent car but time to move on...
TheDeuce said:
john2443 said:
I had a Mii as a courtesy car recently - interesting because the controls are like it's an ICE that's been made electric (which it is) - proper handbrake, put the key in the 'ignition' and turn it, rather than others that have been fully designed as electric.
When I put my foot down, not to the floor only about half way, to come out of a junction, it went like a rocket!
I'd still want to have something in the family fleet that would go further for long distance trips, but seems pretty good for the price - ebay has them at 10/11,000.
And this is how it starts. Now you know how profecient these little EV's are, you start to do the maths and realise it's a perfect second car. And you have the safety net of having a main family ICE car.When I put my foot down, not to the floor only about half way, to come out of a junction, it went like a rocket!
I'd still want to have something in the family fleet that would go further for long distance trips, but seems pretty good for the price - ebay has them at 10/11,000.
But then a few more years down the line and you also want to replace the family car... at that point I bet a lot of people having got used to electric will look to find a 250 mile+ range EV as their experience with EV will have given them the confidence. Also, by that point, you're likely very keen for the drive quality of EV even if you do still have some concerns about practicality. I did!
As I said earlier, people really need time with an EV for the benefits to start to stack up against the occasional short comings.
I wouldn't go back to ICE (if you ignore the gas guzzling 1951 I've got : ) )
As we're approaching retirement we will probably go to 1 modern car so there wil be a decision to be made!
TheDeuce said:
And this is how it starts. Now you know how profecient these little EV's are, you start to do the maths and realise it's a perfect second car. And you have the safety net of having a main family ICE car.
But then a few more years down the line and you also want to replace the family car... at that point I bet a lot of people having got used to electric will look to find a 250 mile+ range EV as their experience with EV will have given them the confidence. Also, by that point, you're likely very keen for the drive quality of EV even if you do still have some concerns about practicality. I did!
Exactly how it went for me as wellBut then a few more years down the line and you also want to replace the family car... at that point I bet a lot of people having got used to electric will look to find a 250 mile+ range EV as their experience with EV will have given them the confidence. Also, by that point, you're likely very keen for the drive quality of EV even if you do still have some concerns about practicality. I did!
Drop in efficiency today, 7 C ambient here and down to 5 m/kWh and showing sub 150 miles range on full 'tank'. At least the sun is shining and its still being charged by the PV 's!!
Curiosity got the better of me this week, I test drove a Cupra Born. They are (in my opinion) one of the few decent looking EV's and rather than read what everyone 'thinks' I thought I'd try one for myself. Positives are Good driving position, good seats, nice damping and it went down the road quite nicely.
Negatives, the complete arse who signed off the haptic switchgear should have been fired on the spot. It is impossible to hold the steering wheel correctly, feed it properly and not press/lightly touch a button thing.....a nonsense and I don'y buy the oh you get used to it, it just shouldn't be there full stop. It only grudgingly achieved 4 m/kWh despite being gentle on 'range', sorry, not good enough. Yes it's heavier and more powerful but I was being deliberately rangey to try and coax more from it. The view out the back for parking is poor too. Mrs Sticky summed it up, doesn't feel the money they are asking for it......I prefer the honesty of the Mii.
So the Wii Mii stays and we shall see how it fares through the worst of winter!
Curiosity got the better of me this week, I test drove a Cupra Born. They are (in my opinion) one of the few decent looking EV's and rather than read what everyone 'thinks' I thought I'd try one for myself. Positives are Good driving position, good seats, nice damping and it went down the road quite nicely.
Negatives, the complete arse who signed off the haptic switchgear should have been fired on the spot. It is impossible to hold the steering wheel correctly, feed it properly and not press/lightly touch a button thing.....a nonsense and I don'y buy the oh you get used to it, it just shouldn't be there full stop. It only grudgingly achieved 4 m/kWh despite being gentle on 'range', sorry, not good enough. Yes it's heavier and more powerful but I was being deliberately rangey to try and coax more from it. The view out the back for parking is poor too. Mrs Sticky summed it up, doesn't feel the money they are asking for it......I prefer the honesty of the Mii.
So the Wii Mii stays and we shall see how it fares through the worst of winter!
stickylabels said:
As far as I can tell there isn't anything similar unless e-Up or Citigo that are more or less identical although beware Citi Gos with only slow charging.
At this point, my balance sheet disproves the cost equality between small petrol/electric. Both were bought 2nd hand, low miles one private owner. At the time they were both slightly below ball park prices.
The figures don't lie, it's all there in black and white. As said, depreciation of over 40% on a used Mii versus around 10% on the petrol Fiesta over twice the time span. It doesn't matter how cheap your electric/charging is, it will take some time and plenty of miles to sort that or a complete about face within the markets.
If you have to charge away from home/work then it's even worse. As said previously, this won't suit many peoples' arguments for pro EV but these are my own current and up to date facts. Once we start adding RFL from '25 that gets even worse as it will be exactly the same price as the Fiesta.
So yes, IF you can buy an EV cheaply and charge cheaply you can still just about beat the system, or, keep what you have and run it 'til it dies! At the moment, a petrol Fiesta wins (sorry....)
Kudos to you for as an EV owner, not being biased and blinkered in favour of the EV on a cost-for-cost basis. At this point, my balance sheet disproves the cost equality between small petrol/electric. Both were bought 2nd hand, low miles one private owner. At the time they were both slightly below ball park prices.
The figures don't lie, it's all there in black and white. As said, depreciation of over 40% on a used Mii versus around 10% on the petrol Fiesta over twice the time span. It doesn't matter how cheap your electric/charging is, it will take some time and plenty of miles to sort that or a complete about face within the markets.
If you have to charge away from home/work then it's even worse. As said previously, this won't suit many peoples' arguments for pro EV but these are my own current and up to date facts. Once we start adding RFL from '25 that gets even worse as it will be exactly the same price as the Fiesta.
So yes, IF you can buy an EV cheaply and charge cheaply you can still just about beat the system, or, keep what you have and run it 'til it dies! At the moment, a petrol Fiesta wins (sorry....)
When I looked at these a couple of years ago, I couldn't make the maths work in favour of the EV, no matter how cheap the charging was; our usage pattern meant a break-even point somewhere around 2070, which was just nuts.
That being said, the depreciation is a welcome sight for me at least, as it means more competitive choice, next time we think about replacement, which can only be a good thing. I still like these little cars, I believe I heard the other day that VAG has pulled the plug on them in favour of the ID range, which is a shame as properly small city cars are becoming scarce, regardless of whether in ICE or EV format.
Cheers chap, it is a nice wee buggy and we do enjoy it for what it is. A great wee runabout for short trips saving the (real) ICE car for proper journeys, towing the caravan etc.
Having said that, I have just managed to get a CoC from BMW allowing the 22 year old (now there's being green for you) Touring to enter LEZ/ULEZ zones as its NOx value is very low. Admittedly it doesn't do many miles over the year, just the big ones and towing 5 up with 4 bikes on the roof and 2 dogs in the boot over many miles. Having researched very thoroughly indeed, there isn't an EV in the world that can manage that kind of work load and comfortably exceed 100 miles without having to stop in some crappy service station and pay silly money for both food/drink and amps!
Its horses for courses, EV's are good at some things, ICE better at others, simples.
Having said that, I have just managed to get a CoC from BMW allowing the 22 year old (now there's being green for you) Touring to enter LEZ/ULEZ zones as its NOx value is very low. Admittedly it doesn't do many miles over the year, just the big ones and towing 5 up with 4 bikes on the roof and 2 dogs in the boot over many miles. Having researched very thoroughly indeed, there isn't an EV in the world that can manage that kind of work load and comfortably exceed 100 miles without having to stop in some crappy service station and pay silly money for both food/drink and amps!
Its horses for courses, EV's are good at some things, ICE better at others, simples.
Crumbs, worst results yet with efficiency down to 4.5 m/kWh this past week and a fully charged range of 132 miles this morning. Not ideal. The heater is only on 19C, any lower and I might as well have the windows open.
The thread on i3's has got me thinking again (nearly bought one before the Mii) but then others with experience post up results not that much better. A bigger car is not an option for us (it's all town use) and as this is supposed to be cheaper motoring spending another £20k would seem remiss too.
Hmm, thinking hat on!
The thread on i3's has got me thinking again (nearly bought one before the Mii) but then others with experience post up results not that much better. A bigger car is not an option for us (it's all town use) and as this is supposed to be cheaper motoring spending another £20k would seem remiss too.
Hmm, thinking hat on!
Currently down at around 3.5 m/kWh average at the moment due to the cold weather. I think I've found the ideal winter setting after various attempts. Heater on 18C (sometimes 19), heater fan on 1 and heated seat on level one too. This seems to keep the cabin reasonable without feeling I'm in a Caterham....This seems to offer genuine range of 100-110 miles. This is a little less than ideal for my purposes but a quick 3/4 hr charge at home gets me to the end of the day. ~Now rocking up to 18k miles.
Delved into other options such as i3, MG4 etc but with car prices being very 'difficult' at the moment I'm going to wait and see. Over the last 2 weeks I have watched an already very well priced i3 (42Kw) drop twice by a total of £1k and I think there is still some way to go. I was offered a brand new MG4 for a bit over £23k with choice of colour and so on. Time to be patient I think as finance rates are still hopeless and I had some fairly hefty i3 insurance quotes too.
Delved into other options such as i3, MG4 etc but with car prices being very 'difficult' at the moment I'm going to wait and see. Over the last 2 weeks I have watched an already very well priced i3 (42Kw) drop twice by a total of £1k and I think there is still some way to go. I was offered a brand new MG4 for a bit over £23k with choice of colour and so on. Time to be patient I think as finance rates are still hopeless and I had some fairly hefty i3 insurance quotes too.
somouk said:
I was getting similar the other day coming back out of Birmingham.
Does anyone elses car always reset to 22 every time it is locked and left for a period of time? Really annoys me!
It seems they all do that chap whether Mii, Citigo or up. From my extremely scientific testing......it seems that after the car has been locked for at least 15-20 mins (ish) then everything resets. Quite why an 'engineer' chose 22C as the default setting when everyone else in the world is trying their best to get a decent range out of the thing is beyond me, surely 18/19 would have been sensible. I have cars that are 22 & 25 years old and they can remember the last setting so it must be the usual penny pinching nonsense again from VW.Does anyone elses car always reset to 22 every time it is locked and left for a period of time? Really annoys me!
Having grumbled about all that, it's not like there are many buttons or menus that you need to go through to reset at least! I do wonder what a slightly facelifted Mii could have been with a slightly bigger battery (say 3-5 more usable Kw), better headlights (Leds) & a longer term memory of settings would have been like. It's one of those cars that is so close to being just so. Still can't get i3's out of my head.....
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff