Life and Death of Li Ion batteries
Discussion
OutInTheShed said:
That question is not just for the sceptics, septics or skeptics, it's also pretty damned important to the enthusiast at the budget end of the market.
It will also become important for the 2nd user in the middle of the market, because his ownerships costs having an EV from say 4 to 8 years, will be hugely influenced by what the 3rd user is prepared to pay.
The used car market is supply versus demand driven.It will also become important for the 2nd user in the middle of the market, because his ownerships costs having an EV from say 4 to 8 years, will be hugely influenced by what the 3rd user is prepared to pay.
We all pay what we can afford at a point in time and adjust our expectations accordingly. I don't really see how the form of propulsion alters this dynamic much.
For those people that say their shed ICE can do 600miles between refills (fantasy) should stick to said ICE for as long as the law allows.
GT9 said:
I was referring specifically to the shape of the degradation curve.
There are several documented cases of ultra-high milage taxis, here's one.
https://electrek.co/2020/05/11/tesla-model-x-extre...
No sign of the main battery on the maintenance list???
It's interesting the way a car used as a taxi can do galactic miles.There are several documented cases of ultra-high milage taxis, here's one.
https://electrek.co/2020/05/11/tesla-model-x-extre...
No sign of the main battery on the maintenance list???
In diesels, it's partly because the engine rarely gets cold.
With an EV, and more specifically the battery, maybe it's quite significant that the battery spends little time resting at a steady charge level?
This kind of links in with some of the V2G studies which suggested that 'exercising' a battery could actually be good for it.
Maybe it supports the concept that time kills batteries just as much as use? Or even more so?
The taxi in question did the miles in just a few years.
Doing over 300 miles a day average, it can't have been idle much.
wormus said:
OutInTheShed said:
wormus said:
GT9 said:
I was referring specifically to the shape of the degradation curve.
Sorry, it’s a Tesla sales brochure and it’s absurd to suggest it’s still got over 90% capacity after 100k miles. 80% might be realistic I’d guess but then these batteries are considered “dead” by 70% so the question is, if you buy a 100k, 10 year old Tesla, with unknown charging/usage history, how much life does it still have? These are the useful answers for skeptics like me to ever consider buying one, not the naive “EVs are amazing!!!!!” bilge which seems to permeate these threads.It will also become important for the 2nd user in the middle of the market, because his ownerships costs having an EV from say 4 to 8 years, will be hugely influenced by what the 3rd user is prepared to pay.
I know its exciting for things to go wrong, but that's only when they actually do go wrong.
OutInTheShed said:
It's interesting the way a car used as a taxi can do galactic miles.
In diesels, it's partly because the engine rarely gets cold.
With an EV, and more specifically the battery, maybe it's quite significant that the battery spends little time resting at a steady charge level?
This kind of links in with some of the V2G studies which suggested that 'exercising' a battery could actually be good for it.
Maybe it supports the concept that time kills batteries just as much as use? Or even more so?
The taxi in question did the miles in just a few years.
Doing over 300 miles a day average, it can't have been idle much.
I have a Taxi guy that drives me to Heathrow / Gatwick regularly circa 100km each way. He will often try and organise a follow across to Bristol or similar. He drives an EV and reckons it works fine for him. In diesels, it's partly because the engine rarely gets cold.
With an EV, and more specifically the battery, maybe it's quite significant that the battery spends little time resting at a steady charge level?
This kind of links in with some of the V2G studies which suggested that 'exercising' a battery could actually be good for it.
Maybe it supports the concept that time kills batteries just as much as use? Or even more so?
The taxi in question did the miles in just a few years.
Doing over 300 miles a day average, it can't have been idle much.
Spent the weekend in London and the number of EV black cabs seems to be growing rapidly.
Evanivitch said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Spent the weekend in London and the number of EV black cabs seems to be growing rapidly.
Aren't the LEVC cans PHEV? 30kWh battery, petrol engine too. Seen a few of the van bodies around Bristol.Just checked. EV
https://levc.com/tx-taxi/overview/
Although they do a motor assisted one as well called a shuttle.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 1st March 11:03
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 1st March 11:03
Earthdweller said:
Nomme de Plum said:
I buy my iPhones outright. We do not seem to be suffering the battery life/performance problem you allege.
So do I This is my 2 year old iPhone now, it has 80% capacity and it’s performance over the last 3 months has deteriorated massively to the point it won’t last a full day, my wife’s bought at the same time is even worse and literally lasts a couple of hours
It really don’t think the above example is unique at all, it’s worth reading the first paragraph below
Nomme de Plum said:
To be honest I do not know for certain but when driving they are silent and have seen them plugged in to charge.
Just checked. EV
https://levc.com/tx-taxi/overview/
5 year, unlimited mileage battery warranty.Just checked. EV
https://levc.com/tx-taxi/overview/
GT9 said:
Nomme de Plum said:
To be honest I do not know for certain but when driving they are silent and have seen them plugged in to charge.
Just checked. EV
https://levc.com/tx-taxi/overview/
5 year, unlimited mileage battery warranty.Just checked. EV
https://levc.com/tx-taxi/overview/
I love what modern technology can now do. My boat plotter not only uses live tide flow data but imports weather data as well to ensure the optimal course to steer and time to tack for the planned journey.
You can even get automatic parallel parking in a 17m yacht. Pretty spectacular although well outside my more modest budget.
Nomme de Plum said:
I do not understand Wormus' position. He seems fixated in trying to prove that EV batteries will fail in a relatively short time frame but can provide zero evidence to substantiate his position so resorts to bizarre extrapolations.
It's his hobby.He hates EV's, is never going to buy one, but is the expert on them - is on most EV threads to tell everyone they're rubbish.
Unlike most EV owners who have also owned ICE and some who have multiple ICE cars in their garage who might actually have a bit more credence.
NDA said:
It's his hobby.
He hates EV's, is never going to buy one, but is the expert on them - is on most EV threads to tell everyone they're rubbish.
Unlike most EV owners who have also owned ICE and some who have multiple ICE cars in their garage who might actually have a bit more credence.
Shows how little you know, I come here to add a little balance to the EV gushers who’ve often paid a lot of money and not prepared to be unbiased towards their purchase. I’ve not said anywhere that EVs are rubbish. I’m just trying to understand the limitations now and the medium term. He hates EV's, is never going to buy one, but is the expert on them - is on most EV threads to tell everyone they're rubbish.
Unlike most EV owners who have also owned ICE and some who have multiple ICE cars in their garage who might actually have a bit more credence.
NDA said:
Nomme de Plum said:
I do not understand Wormus' position. He seems fixated in trying to prove that EV batteries will fail in a relatively short time frame but can provide zero evidence to substantiate his position so resorts to bizarre extrapolations.
It's his hobby.He hates EV's, is never going to buy one, but is the expert on them - is on most EV threads to tell everyone they're rubbish.
Unlike most EV owners who have also owned ICE and some who have multiple ICE cars in their garage who might actually have a bit more credence.
I think it's a bit more subtle than that.
There are many of us on here that are people of a certain age who know their onions in our respective spheres of existence, and are confident to have strong opinions within that sphere, cars are obviously within that sphere for many of us.
The thing about EVs is that they rewrite the rule book for cars on quite a few fronts, so it's a steep learning curve if all you have to go on is what you read in print from journalists or commentators, many of whom seemingly haven't gone through that learning curve yet themselves, or have an entrenched position because, bluntly, they may feel threatened by what EVs mean for their future.
To have to go through a steep learning curve at our age is alien, we did all that decades ago, and so the strong opinions remain whilst the knowledge is being accumulated. EVs are not the only thing being discussed on PH where we see it, and I include myself in that.
wormus said:
NDA said:
It's his hobby.
He hates EV's, is never going to buy one, but is the expert on them - is on most EV threads to tell everyone they're rubbish.
Unlike most EV owners who have also owned ICE and some who have multiple ICE cars in their garage who might actually have a bit more credence.
Shows how little you know, I come here to add a little balance to the EV gushers who’ve often paid a lot of money and not prepared to be unbiased towards their purchase. I’ve not said anywhere that EVs are rubbish. I’m just trying to understand the limitations now and the medium term. He hates EV's, is never going to buy one, but is the expert on them - is on most EV threads to tell everyone they're rubbish.
Unlike most EV owners who have also owned ICE and some who have multiple ICE cars in their garage who might actually have a bit more credence.
wormus said:
Shows how little you know, I come here to add a little balance to the EV gushers who’ve often paid a lot of money and not prepared to be unbiased towards their purchase. I’ve not said anywhere that EVs are rubbish. I’m just trying to understand the limitations now and the medium term.
But you are not providing balance are you. You have yet to provide any evidence to substantiate some of your assertions.If you were to say that you were prepared to wait and see that would be a reasonable stance. Or maybe your user profile means that where you live and personal circumstances would mean EV ownership would not be convenient then that would be a reasonable position but that is not the case.
For some un-evidenced reason you seem to be saying that soon after the 100,000 8 year warranty period that batteries will fail to the point ofd being useless.
If this was really true there would already be many reports validating the same. There are not though.
In fact it seems that useable battery life particularly for the newer ones will be considerably more.
GT9 said:
I think it's a bit more subtle than that.
There are many of us on here that are people of a certain age who know their onions in our respective spheres of existence, and are confident to have strong opinions within that sphere, cars are obviously within that sphere for many of us.
The thing about EVs is that they rewrite the rule book for cars on quite a few fronts, so it's a steep learning curve if all you have to go on is what you read in print from journalists or commentators, many of whom seemingly haven't gone through that learning curve yet themselves, or have an entrenched position because, bluntly, they may feel threatened by what EVs mean for their future.
To have to go through a steep learning curve at our age is alien, we did all that decades ago, and so the strong opinions remain whilst the knowledge is being accumulated. EVs are not the only thing being discussed on PH where we see it, and I include myself in that.
Anyway I studied Engineering and my working life kept me close to technology developments in the High tech sector. However I am no expert and I consider my knowledge to be that of an educated layman.
I do however know how to interpret data and how far that data can be extrapolated. I suggest Wormus does not understand the limitations of taking various bits of information like battery degradation along with warranty periods and turning that in a prediction of failure. It simply does not stack up.
Nomme de Plum said:
But you are not providing balance are you. You have yet to provide any evidence to substantiate some of your assertions.
If you were to say that you were prepared to wait and see that would be a reasonable stance. Or maybe your user profile means that where you live and personal circumstances would mean EV ownership would not be convenient then that would be a reasonable position but that is not the case.
For some un-evidenced reason you seem to be saying that soon after the 100,000 8 year warranty period that batteries will fail to the point ofd being useless.
If this was really true there would already be many reports validating the same. There are not though.
In fact it seems that useable battery life particularly for the newer ones will be considerably more.
I’ve provided links and graphs for everything I’ve referred to, then given opinion. I’ve suggested somewhere after 100k miles, when a battery reached 70% capacity it needs replacing, which all evidence suggests, what’s not clear is how long after 100k miles. If you have time, go back a read some of the articles I refer to and read my responses in context.If you were to say that you were prepared to wait and see that would be a reasonable stance. Or maybe your user profile means that where you live and personal circumstances would mean EV ownership would not be convenient then that would be a reasonable position but that is not the case.
For some un-evidenced reason you seem to be saying that soon after the 100,000 8 year warranty period that batteries will fail to the point ofd being useless.
If this was really true there would already be many reports validating the same. There are not though.
In fact it seems that useable battery life particularly for the newer ones will be considerably more.
ICEs aren’t perfect, far from it, but neither are EVs at the moment, I don’t understand why people on these threads cannot be more objective. Is it perhaps because they are positively biased and seek endorsement from others like them? Certainly I’ve never experienced a forum where there’s such vitriol towards myself, just because I choose to question. I’m all up for polite, healthy debate, but it seems others aren’t capable of it.
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