Life and Death of Li Ion batteries
Discussion
NDA said:
I note the Model 3 battery warranty (and drive unit) is now 120,000 miles and the S is 150,000 miles.
Anyone expecting to go over these mileages should obviously avoid them.
100K for Model 3/Y RWD - 60kWhAnyone expecting to go over these mileages should obviously avoid them.
120K for Model 3/Y LR/Performance - 80kWh
150k For Model S/X - 100kWh
It's based on full charge cycles, hence the larger the battery the longer the warranty.
Edited by SWoll on Friday 3rd March 19:30
SpeckledJim said:
It’s no problem. They’ll all fail at 100k per the gospel according to wormus and get replaced by Tesla for free!
God know why Tesla are doing this. It’s clearly terrible business. We should tweet Elon a link to this thread. He might give us 1% of the money we’d save him.
If EVs are going to replace ICEs, they need to be just as good at the basics: longevity, easy and affordable to repair & run, decent resale values, as well as range and ease of charging. There's no point looking at the future of motoring through the lens of the high earning people who can afford to buy them new. Too many blinkered people on this thread who'd do well to look at the whole system.God know why Tesla are doing this. It’s clearly terrible business. We should tweet Elon a link to this thread. He might give us 1% of the money we’d save him.
wormus said:
If EVs are going to replace ICEs, they need to be just as good at the basics: longevity, easy and affordable to repair & run, decent resale values, as well as range and ease of charging. There's no point looking at the future of motoring through the lens of the high earning people who can afford to buy them new. Too many blinkered people on this thread who'd do well to look at the whole system.
EV Bingo!Nomme de Plum said:
wormus said:
Nomme de Plum said:
wormus said:
No, I don’t believe I am. Nobody so far has been able to point to an authoritative, independent data source that says how long an EV battery lasts. It’s just conjecture from a bunch of biased, Internet randoms.
So why are you fixated with the 100,000m figure you keep quoting? Maybe that's where the numbers came from.
wormus said:
Nomme de Plum said:
wormus said:
Alright grandad, keep your hair on. If you look at the other videos on that channel, you'll see they also repair Model S batteries which are similar in design. Cells still fail, even with advanced battery management. I'm prepared to accept that batteries last quite a long time but by 10-15 years, they do start to develop problems. This bloke has a business repairing them. Why not be more open minded?
Try this one. Interesting to watch the whole thing but he talks about the Model S 8 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpPyBYRDcM&ab...
I've got better things to do on a Friday evening so knock yourself out watching them all.Try this one. Interesting to watch the whole thing but he talks about the Model S 8 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpPyBYRDcM&ab...
Edited by wormus on Friday 3rd March 18:17
wormus said:
If EVs are going to replace ICEs, they need to be just as good at the basics: longevity, easy and affordable to repair & run, decent resale values, as well as range and ease of charging. There's no point looking at the future of motoring through the lens of the high earning people who can afford to buy them new. Too many blinkered people on this thread who'd do well to look at the whole system.
Wouldn't worry about it, the regs will force them on you and competition will solve the rest. Nobody has a god given right to a car at all costs, to suggest otherwise. If people can't afford it then a lower carbon option then there are other available low carbon options such as walking, the bus or the train.
D4rez said:
wormus said:
If EVs are going to replace ICEs, they need to be just as good at the basics: longevity, easy and affordable to repair & run, decent resale values, as well as range and ease of charging. There's no point looking at the future of motoring through the lens of the high earning people who can afford to buy them new. Too many blinkered people on this thread who'd do well to look at the whole system.
Wouldn't worry about it, the regs will force them on you and competition will solve the rest. Nobody has a god given right to a car at all costs, to suggest otherwise. If people can't afford it then a lower carbon option then there are other available low carbon options such as walking, the bus or the train.Governments legislate to appease voters, which is why we have the pensions triple lock, uprated benefits in line with inflation, and another extension to the cost of living support scheme. People do have the right to mobility, how else do you think they get to work or go to the shops? How does the economy grow? Nobody will be forced to do anything as they won’t vote for any government that takes away freedoms they already enjoy. The whole system needs to work and to suggest otherwise is very naive.
wormus said:
That’s such a PH response - it won’t affect me so I don’t care!
Governments legislate to appease voters, which is why we have the pensions triple lock, uprated benefits in line with inflation, and another extension to the cost of living support scheme. People do have the right to mobility, how else do you think they get to work or go to the shops? How does the economy grow? Nobody will be forced to do anything as they won’t vote any government that takes away freedoms they already enjoy. The whole system needs to work and to suggest otherwise is very naive.
You can draw parallels with other regressive taxes where there is a greater societal good such as alcohol, sugar, tobacco.Governments legislate to appease voters, which is why we have the pensions triple lock, uprated benefits in line with inflation, and another extension to the cost of living support scheme. People do have the right to mobility, how else do you think they get to work or go to the shops? How does the economy grow? Nobody will be forced to do anything as they won’t vote any government that takes away freedoms they already enjoy. The whole system needs to work and to suggest otherwise is very naive.
Yes taxing or restricting these affects the poorer sections of society more, in every case governments have taken the decision to go ahead thinking of the long term.
I see no reason why they would act differently in this case.
The answer is to address inequality not to give polluting cars a free pass.
wormus said:
That’s such a PH response - it won’t affect me so I don’t care!
Governments legislate to appease voters, which is why we have the pensions triple lock, uprated benefits in line with inflation, and another extension to the cost of living support scheme. People do have the right to mobility, how else do you think they get to work or go to the shops? How does the economy grow? Nobody will be forced to do anything as they won’t vote for any government that takes away freedoms they already enjoy. The whole system needs to work and to suggest otherwise is very naive.
Some people are resistant to change. I suggest the majority will come to terms with this change just like may others we have had over the decades. All three major parties have a similar approach so it will be pick one or don't vote.Governments legislate to appease voters, which is why we have the pensions triple lock, uprated benefits in line with inflation, and another extension to the cost of living support scheme. People do have the right to mobility, how else do you think they get to work or go to the shops? How does the economy grow? Nobody will be forced to do anything as they won’t vote for any government that takes away freedoms they already enjoy. The whole system needs to work and to suggest otherwise is very naive.
I have seen nothing that says you can't keep your ICE for at least the next decade or so. Do you know different?
EVs will become common place and used values will reflect supply demand. I think the cheapest I've seen is about £5K.
Please explain to us how you think the economy and growth will be negatively impacted. I see it as an opportunity.
Nomme de Plum said:
Some people are resistant to change. I suggest the majority will come to terms with this change just like may others we have had over the decades. All three major parties have a similar approach so it will be pick one or don't vote.
I have seen nothing that says you can't keep your ICE for at least the next decade or so. Do you know different?
EVs will become common place and used values will reflect supply demand. I think the cheapest I've seen is about £5K.
Please explain to us how you think the economy and growth will be negatively impacted. I see it as an opportunity.
I think you’re giving any government of the day too much credit. Take this for example:I have seen nothing that says you can't keep your ICE for at least the next decade or so. Do you know different?
EVs will become common place and used values will reflect supply demand. I think the cheapest I've seen is about £5K.
Please explain to us how you think the economy and growth will be negatively impacted. I see it as an opportunity.
“Carbon capture power plants are part of the government's commitment to remove carbon from UK electricity production by 2035. It hopes to build at least one by the mid 2020s, although that deadline now looks improbable.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-647...
They’re also quietly dumping HS2 because it’s too expensive.
Cars are much better than horses, but the practical benefits of EVs over ICEs is less clear so they need to be at least as good day to day for most people to ever catch on. They are not yet widely accepted, even by people on this thread, but many of us would make the switch if there’s benefit to us personally in doing so.
As to your question on economic growth, people need to get to work and access to personal mobility has always been central to that.
wormus said:
Cars are much better than horses, but the practical benefits of EVs over ICEs is less clear so they need to be at least as good day to day for most people to ever catch on. They are not yet widely accepted, even by people on this thread, but many of us would make the switch if there’s benefit to us personally in doing so.
Stop speaking for other people. For me and I suspect a lot of other owners EVs are unequivocally better than ICE alternative right now. That’s been said over and over again yet you maintain this false stance.Archie2050 said:
wormus said:
Cars are much better than horses, but the practical benefits of EVs over ICEs is less clear so they need to be at least as good day to day for most people to ever catch on. They are not yet widely accepted, even by people on this thread, but many of us would make the switch if there’s benefit to us personally in doing so.
Stop speaking for other people. For me and I suspect a lot of other owners EVs are unequivocally better than ICE alternative right now. That’s been said over and over again yet you maintain this false stance.wormus said:
Not terribly self-aware are you! Several people contributing to this thread don’t yet own an EV, not just me. No, they are not yet better for everyone.
Just because a person does not currently own an EV does not mean they would not prefer one. Currently they tend to be SUVs, Tesla/ Porsche excepted of course, but more are being developed and released. Many people will change when they next change their car.
I currently own a Hybrid Estate car and wish for an EV estate car. When I was living in the Eu I had a Taycan as I did not need the space afforded by the estate car.
Do you accept that the pollutants from car exhausts cause permanent and irreversible health impacts to many people. Health problems in later life are now being linked with this pollution and equally concerning is the impact on young developing brains?
Miners and Quarry workers suffered from pneumoconiosis and silicosis and resulted in litigation and compensation
Similarly workers subjected to Asbestos dust who subsequently suffered Asbestosis and cancers and also resulted in litigation and compensation.
We do not want to be in the same situation with ICEs do we?
Now we are much better informed about the negative impacts from ICEs we must take action which is what is happening.
wormus said:
D4rez said:
wormus said:
If EVs are going to replace ICEs, they need to be just as good at the basics: longevity, easy and affordable to repair & run, decent resale values, as well as range and ease of charging. There's no point looking at the future of motoring through the lens of the high earning people who can afford to buy them new. Too many blinkered people on this thread who'd do well to look at the whole system.
Wouldn't worry about it, the regs will force them on you and competition will solve the rest. Nobody has a god given right to a car at all costs, to suggest otherwise. If people can't afford it then a lower carbon option then there are other available low carbon options such as walking, the bus or the train.Governments legislate to appease voters, which is why we have the pensions triple lock, uprated benefits in line with inflation, and another extension to the cost of living support scheme. People do have the right to mobility, how else do you think they get to work or go to the shops? How does the economy grow? Nobody will be forced to do anything as they won’t vote for any government that takes away freedoms they already enjoy. The whole system needs to work and to suggest otherwise is very naive.
I mean thanks to inflation and weak salary many of the poor already can’t do things they could do a few years ago… besides by the time the late adopters need to make a decision on this for a used car the new car market wooo already have been decided (already has). People are just going to take an EV like a good citizen, there won’t be protests. Nobody cares
D4rez said:
People voted for the Tories who promised an ICE ban, who do you think they will vote for that will reverse it. Besides the EU and China are already driving the agenda anyway. Most car manufacturers too have already stopped investing in ICE development. It’s over.
I mean thanks to inflation and weak salary many of the poor already can’t do things they could do a few years ago… besides by the time the late adopters need to make a decision on this for a used car the new car market wooo already have been decided (already has). People are just going to take an EV like a good citizen, there won’t be protests. Nobody cares
There are many people in poverty that cannot afford to run a car. For many it is not necessary and a convenience they cannot afford anyway. It seems some posters do not seem to realise this. I mean thanks to inflation and weak salary many of the poor already can’t do things they could do a few years ago… besides by the time the late adopters need to make a decision on this for a used car the new car market wooo already have been decided (already has). People are just going to take an EV like a good citizen, there won’t be protests. Nobody cares
The number in real poverty is not small either. Millions not a few hundred thousand.
Earthdweller said:
Nomme de Plum said:
I buy my iPhones outright. We do not seem to be suffering the battery life/performance problem you allege.
So do I This is my 2 year old iPhone now, it has 80% capacity and it’s performance over the last 3 months has deteriorated massively to the point it won’t last a full day, my wife’s bought at the same time is even worse and literally lasts a couple of hours
It really don’t think the above example is unique at all, it’s worth reading the first paragraph below
I still get two days easily, with reasonable use from a single charge. or one day if we do a long day nav journey, or my daughter watched a film or two on it. Not noticed any degradation.
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