Life and Death of Li Ion batteries
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
Mikehig said:
The article says:
"At Synetiq, the UK's largest salvage company, head of operations Michael Hill said over the last 12 months the number of EVs in the isolation bay – where they must be checked to avoid fire risk - at the firm's Doncaster yard has soared, from perhaps a dozen every three days to up to 20 per day.
"We've seen a really big shift and it's across all manufacturers," Hill said.
The UK currently has no EV battery recycling facilities, so Synetiq has to remove the batteries from written-off cars and store them in containers. Hill estimated at least 95% of the cells in the hundreds of EV battery packs - and thousands of hybrid battery packs - Synetiq has stored at Doncaster are undamaged and should be reused."
At 20 per day those hundreds of EV batteries will soon be thousands. Add in the hybrid packs and it must all add to substantial potential value in repaired packs and recovered material. Unless repair/material recovery is problematic, it's surprising that no-one has set up shop to do this.
The longer those undamaged battery packs sit in storage the more likely they'll turn into bricked batteries."At Synetiq, the UK's largest salvage company, head of operations Michael Hill said over the last 12 months the number of EVs in the isolation bay – where they must be checked to avoid fire risk - at the firm's Doncaster yard has soared, from perhaps a dozen every three days to up to 20 per day.
"We've seen a really big shift and it's across all manufacturers," Hill said.
The UK currently has no EV battery recycling facilities, so Synetiq has to remove the batteries from written-off cars and store them in containers. Hill estimated at least 95% of the cells in the hundreds of EV battery packs - and thousands of hybrid battery packs - Synetiq has stored at Doncaster are undamaged and should be reused."
At 20 per day those hundreds of EV batteries will soon be thousands. Add in the hybrid packs and it must all add to substantial potential value in repaired packs and recovered material. Unless repair/material recovery is problematic, it's surprising that no-one has set up shop to do this.
So there's two-fold, we need a means to second-life these batteries that are useable and a means to recycle expired batteries back to raw product. And shipping them is hazardous so ideally a UK location.
You could well imagine that an automated recycling process as the default for questionable batteries might make the most sense, even if small independents can repair them.
OutInTheShed said:
Mikehig said:
The article says:
"At Synetiq, the UK's largest salvage company, head of operations Michael Hill said over the last 12 months the number of EVs in the isolation bay – where they must be checked to avoid fire risk - at the firm's Doncaster yard has soared, from perhaps a dozen every three days to up to 20 per day.
"We've seen a really big shift and it's across all manufacturers," Hill said.
The UK currently has no EV battery recycling facilities, so Synetiq has to remove the batteries from written-off cars and store them in containers. Hill estimated at least 95% of the cells in the hundreds of EV battery packs - and thousands of hybrid battery packs - Synetiq has stored at Doncaster are undamaged and should be reused."
At 20 per day those hundreds of EV batteries will soon be thousands. Add in the hybrid packs and it must all add to substantial potential value in repaired packs and recovered material. Unless repair/material recovery is problematic, it's surprising that no-one has set up shop to do this.
Chicken and egg really."At Synetiq, the UK's largest salvage company, head of operations Michael Hill said over the last 12 months the number of EVs in the isolation bay – where they must be checked to avoid fire risk - at the firm's Doncaster yard has soared, from perhaps a dozen every three days to up to 20 per day.
"We've seen a really big shift and it's across all manufacturers," Hill said.
The UK currently has no EV battery recycling facilities, so Synetiq has to remove the batteries from written-off cars and store them in containers. Hill estimated at least 95% of the cells in the hundreds of EV battery packs - and thousands of hybrid battery packs - Synetiq has stored at Doncaster are undamaged and should be reused."
At 20 per day those hundreds of EV batteries will soon be thousands. Add in the hybrid packs and it must all add to substantial potential value in repaired packs and recovered material. Unless repair/material recovery is problematic, it's surprising that no-one has set up shop to do this.
Nobody is going to invest in a recycling facility until the numbers are sufficient.
20 vehicles a day is only a few thousand a year. The batteries are not hugely valuable.
You need big numbers to start up an industry.
Wages, premises, technology all cost a lot.
When it starts to look like big money, the industry will appear.
There's no point starting too small, knowing in 5 years' time you'll be obsolete.
I think we are not far from the point where it starts to make sense
As for "The batteries are not hugely valuable", What else makes EVs so much costlier than ICEs?
Mikehig said:
OutInTheShed said:
Mikehig said:
The article says:
"At Synetiq, the UK's largest salvage company, head of operations Michael Hill said over the last 12 months the number of EVs in the isolation bay – where they must be checked to avoid fire risk - at the firm's Doncaster yard has soared, from perhaps a dozen every three days to up to 20 per day.
"We've seen a really big shift and it's across all manufacturers," Hill said.
The UK currently has no EV battery recycling facilities, so Synetiq has to remove the batteries from written-off cars and store them in containers. Hill estimated at least 95% of the cells in the hundreds of EV battery packs - and thousands of hybrid battery packs - Synetiq has stored at Doncaster are undamaged and should be reused."
At 20 per day those hundreds of EV batteries will soon be thousands. Add in the hybrid packs and it must all add to substantial potential value in repaired packs and recovered material. Unless repair/material recovery is problematic, it's surprising that no-one has set up shop to do this.
Chicken and egg really."At Synetiq, the UK's largest salvage company, head of operations Michael Hill said over the last 12 months the number of EVs in the isolation bay – where they must be checked to avoid fire risk - at the firm's Doncaster yard has soared, from perhaps a dozen every three days to up to 20 per day.
"We've seen a really big shift and it's across all manufacturers," Hill said.
The UK currently has no EV battery recycling facilities, so Synetiq has to remove the batteries from written-off cars and store them in containers. Hill estimated at least 95% of the cells in the hundreds of EV battery packs - and thousands of hybrid battery packs - Synetiq has stored at Doncaster are undamaged and should be reused."
At 20 per day those hundreds of EV batteries will soon be thousands. Add in the hybrid packs and it must all add to substantial potential value in repaired packs and recovered material. Unless repair/material recovery is problematic, it's surprising that no-one has set up shop to do this.
Nobody is going to invest in a recycling facility until the numbers are sufficient.
20 vehicles a day is only a few thousand a year. The batteries are not hugely valuable.
You need big numbers to start up an industry.
Wages, premises, technology all cost a lot.
When it starts to look like big money, the industry will appear.
There's no point starting too small, knowing in 5 years' time you'll be obsolete.
I think we are not far from the point where it starts to make sense
As for "The batteries are not hugely valuable", What else makes EVs so much costlier than ICEs?
But there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
SpeckledJim said:
They're expensive to build, as part of building a new car.
But there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
Some companies have offered home battery storage using second -life batteries. However, the limited feedstock makes it unviable. I'd be quite happy with a second-life LFP home battery, but the labour and testing required of second-life batteries doesn't always mean a great saving over a new set with longer warranty.But there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
LivLL said:
Presumably there are already plants that recycle the types of battery cells contained within many EV batteries?
Tesla started to supply ‘new’ 90kWh 350v 4680 cell packs for older S/Xs around 24 months ago. Recently its come to light that these ‘new’ 90kWh packs may actually be using ‘used’ cells taken from old packs. Tesla of course aren’t commenting, but they currently offer ‘refurbished’ 85kWh packs for around $10k, or a ‘new’ 90kWh pack for $20K. The refurbished packs are not re manufactured in anyway as far as anyone call tell, but a chap in the US who build a P100+ and retrofitted AP to a none-AP car (so he knows what’s his doing) has suggested there is data in BMS pulls of the ‘new’ packs that they are using recycled cells versus ‘new’ 4680 cells. His keen to take apart one of these brand ‘new’ packs, but understandably no owner who’s just paid $20K for one is going to let someone dismantle the pack for no reason, these packs have a 4 year, 50K mile warranty so it might a few more years before we know for sure.
But if Tesla are doing this, than it’s clearly possible, but nothing is confirmed.
Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 11th April 16:26
SpeckledJim said:
They're expensive to build, as part of building a new car.
But there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
RubbishBut there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
https://www.ebay.com/b/Electric-Car-Truck-Batterie...
https://www.azlithium.com/
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
I could list hundreds of companies offering used EV batteries for solar storage.
NMNeil said:
SpeckledJim said:
They're expensive to build, as part of building a new car.
But there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
RubbishBut there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
https://www.ebay.com/b/Electric-Car-Truck-Batterie...
https://www.azlithium.com/
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
I could list hundreds of companies offering used EV batteries for solar storage.
I'm talking about a shortage of demand for a good condition battery from a write-off. The company we're discussing breaks cars and sells used car parts.
There's not much of a market for a healthy 3 year old 90kWh Tesla battery from a crashed car, because very few similar cars are in need of a replacement battery.
You're talking about finding a use for a 'very tired' battery pack. A nominal 24kWh battery from an old Leaf that's actually only got 12 kWh left does indeed make a useful domestic battery, and that's a great use for it.
Reading the Doom Press you'd expect to see lots of presentable but dead cars on eBay for £5k that need a £15k battery in order to be a £20k car again. But there's really not much of that.
NMNeil said:
SpeckledJim said:
They're expensive to build, as part of building a new car.
But there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
RubbishBut there's not much of a market for them second hand.
If batteries were dying with the frequency that some would have you believe, then there would be a thriving market in second hand batteries...but there isn't...
https://www.ebay.com/b/Electric-Car-Truck-Batterie...
https://www.azlithium.com/
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
I could list hundreds of companies offering used EV batteries for solar storage.
The USA market will be more mature simply because of the numbers available.
Are there many on the UK market?
It will be interesting to see how the used market develops as useful battery life increases and manufacturing costs continue to fall.
NMNeil said:
Rubbish
https://www.ebay.com/b/Electric-Car-Truck-Batterie...
https://www.azlithium.com/
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
I could list hundreds of companies offering used EV batteries for solar storage.
Really? I think there's plenty of companies that say it can be done, but few are able to acquire used batteries at a rate and price point that is sustainable as a business model. At least as far as I've been aware of to date.https://www.ebay.com/b/Electric-Car-Truck-Batterie...
https://www.azlithium.com/
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
I could list hundreds of companies offering used EV batteries for solar storage.
Nomme de Plum said:
Shipping from the USA would be expensive and then there is the customs duty issue.
Good luck shipping 'used' batteries from the US. It's a nightmare especially when you've broken down a battery to cells/modules without a BMS.Evanivitch said:
NMNeil said:
Rubbish
https://www.ebay.com/b/Electric-Car-Truck-Batterie...
https://www.azlithium.com/
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
I could list hundreds of companies offering used EV batteries for solar storage.
Really? I think there's plenty of companies that say it can be done, but few are able to acquire used batteries at a rate and price point that is sustainable as a business model. At least as far as I've been aware of to date.https://www.ebay.com/b/Electric-Car-Truck-Batterie...
https://www.azlithium.com/
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4
I could list hundreds of companies offering used EV batteries for solar storage.
Nomme de Plum said:
Shipping from the USA would be expensive and then there is the customs duty issue.
Good luck shipping 'used' batteries from the US. It's a nightmare especially when you've broken down a battery to cells/modules without a BMS.Google is not always our friend.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff