re Hybrid version of the 2023 Honda Jazz 1.5 i-MMD eCVT SE

[alfaspecial]

I posted this in the Honda thread - but perhaps it might get a response in the EV / Alternative Fuels section?

Whilst I'm a fully fledged car bore (Alfa Romeo 'special', as per my username), we do need a more practical car in our stable.
When my better half turned 40, back in 2009, she wanted something a little bit more grown up than her previous city hatchbacks. We bought a Honda Jazz. And we were both smitten. It's not an exciting car (it even came with a trilby on the back parcel shelf.....and driving gloves!) But it is so practical - especially the magic seats. There are only the two of us but for holidays etc it's great.

Turning 50, 4 years ago, she treated herself to something more in keeping with a mid-life-crisis.... a Mini Cooper. Which provides the thrills but without much in the way of practicality and we just couldn't bare to part with the Jazz - which has now done 110,000 pretty much faultless miles. (1 battery, 4 bulbs, two front brake discs / pads).
But..... it's just failed it's MOT. Needs a small weld on sills (only rust on car) and new rear brake discs. So, perhaps it's time to move on as it's not worth much £1700 and no doubt other bills are on the horizon. (Clutch etc)

Honda are now going down the hybrid route.
I'm not sure that 'our' lifestyle is quite ready for a full blown EV because of range verses purchase price issues so what about this model: 2023 Honda Jazz 1.5 i-MMD Hybrid eCVT SE?
I'd appreciate any anyone's experiences as to whether this is a good first (hybrid) EV -
Thanks

[TheInternet]

Neighbour went from Mk2 Jazz to one of those and loves it. I think the hybrid drivetrain is excellent for current times, and particularly like that it has no gearbox at all.

[peterperkins]

I was chatting to a chap in the local carpark the other day who had one of those and loved it.

Quite a decent looking car as well.

Have to be careful of CAT thefts and get a plate put on underneath probably.

[hiccy18]

A couple of people near me own them and everytime they pass us they're on battery; I'm quite impressed by them tbh.

[alfaspecial]

Thanks for the opinions, folks. Will go and have a look at one perhaps do a test drive on Monday.
But it would be good to hear from an actual owner re reliability / real world economy etc

[AmitG]

I've had one for nearly 2 years, and love it. In fact I would say that it is the second most "Honda" car that Honda make today, after the Civic Type R. By which I mean that it's designed by engineers, not marketing people.

Things I like:

• Very easy to drive. Excellent visibility all round. You feel confident flinging it around.
• It's actually quite quick in the real world. It's even pretty good on country roads. It changes direction pretty well. Being small helps a lot.
• It's massive inside. This is the best thing about it. 4 big adults can travel in comfort no problem. I know of no other car in the sub-4m class that can do that.
• Magic seats are genuinely useful. Plus the rear bench folds into the floor, so in 2-seat mode you can have a huge load space. I have transported all kinds of crap (including a full living room's worth of IKEA stuff) with no problem.
• You get physical climate controls
• Very good on fuel economy, I am getting 60mpg in the real world no issue.
• Nothing has gone wrong. Admittedly this is only 2 years and 16k miles in, but as a former Jaguar owner, I'm impressed

Things that could be improved:

• It's a bit noisy inside. Sound insulation is not the best.
• The wheels are alloy but have these strange plastic trims, which IMHO look a bit cheap. I think that this is fixed with the facelift (see below).
• The lane keeping assist can be sometimes overly intrusive on narrow country roads. You can turn it off, but it turns itself back on every time you start the car.
• Sat nav is not great. There is no traffic or speed camera information and the display is not great. Not an issue if you are planning on using your phone.

The Jazz tends to be an object of ridicule, both on PH and more generally. People like to punch down on it. Bought by pensioners who can't drive, or people who know nothing about cars etc. I would disagree. IMHO it's a packaging masterpiece. The only modern car that came close in terms of clever packaging was the Renault Twingo/Smart ForFour, and they are no longer on sale. Beyond this, I would have to go back to the mk1 Renault Espace or the mk1 Toyota Previa.

The drivetrain is clever. As TheInternet says, there is no gearbox at all - not even a planetary gearset like the Toyota hybrids.

Cat theft should not be an issue on this model. The cat is mounted high up and close to the engine block, so scrotes can't get to it. And the cat is much smaller than previous models. It's not a target in the way that older models are.

Note - the facelift version is about to be launched, and I believe that it comes with more power (129BHP over 109BHP) along with some other fixes. Worth a check before buying. Don't pay overs for a run-out version of the old model...

[TheInternet]

ClubJazz would give you insight re. fuel economy, though I'd take it with a bit of a pinch of salt as they are bound to be of a certain type.

That said, one poster states:

70mph = ~50mpg
60mph = ~60mpg
50mph = ~70mpg

and if you do an urban journey all under 40mph you can get closer to 90 or 100mpg+

[alfaspecial]

AmitG & TheInternet

Thanks for the advice. I have to say our Jazz (2009) has been so reliable and I still get a WOW! every time I use the magic seats


AmitG quote "Note - the facelift version is about to be launched, and I believe that it comes with more power (129BHP over 109BHP) along with some other fixes. Worth a check before buying. Don't pay overs for a run-out version of the old model..."


Thanks v. much for this. I had a look on Car Wow and there 'are' discounts available, presumably the run-out model. I'll have to speak to the dealers re price for facelift version versus run-out version.

[Whataguy]

I ran a 2021 Mk4 Jazz for a year and had endless annoying issues with it, not being able to use any of the safety systems or adaptive cruise control due to them fitting a cheap camera instead of a decent radar sensor that other manufacturers do.

Loads of issues with the infotainment system too, but if you don't use apple carplay/android auto then they might not affect you.

The engine and non-motorway mpg were fine. Easily able to get 60-70mpg on country roads without doing anything special.

Edited by Whataguy on Monday 13th March 18:34

[AmitG]

alfaspecial said:

I had a look on Car Wow and there 'are' discounts available, presumably the run-out model. I'll have to speak to the dealers re price for facelift version versus run-out version.

Do check the spec. I believe that at least one trim level (EX) is not available any more, and will be re-introduced with the facelift. So it's worth making sure that whatever they have has the spec you need...

There is also a "Crosstar" trim level which is slightly raised and has some black plastic cladding (like a dinky SUV). According to clubjazz, there are many of those available from Honda UK stock, and Honda UK will presumably be keen to clear those out to make space for the new model...

The facelift has an extra 20BHP but torque is unchanged, and performance figures are also unchanged, so I presume that the main benefits would be noise level (engine not working so hard) and possibly fuel economy.

[Mikehig]

AmitG said:

alfaspecial said:

I had a look on Car Wow and there 'are' discounts available, presumably the run-out model. I'll have to speak to the dealers re price for facelift version versus run-out version.

Do check the spec. I believe that at least one trim level (EX) is not available any more, and will be re-introduced with the facelift. So it's worth making sure that whatever they have has the spec you need...

There is also a "Crosstar" trim level which is slightly raised and has some black plastic cladding (like a dinky SUV). According to clubjazz, there are many of those available from Honda UK stock, and Honda UK will presumably be keen to clear those out to make space for the new model...

The facelift has an extra 20BHP but torque is unchanged, and performance figures are also unchanged, so I presume that the main benefits would be noise level (engine not working so hard) and possibly fuel economy.

Power is torque x revs so, if the torque is the same, the increase in power must come from higher revs.
Of course the torque curve at low revs may have been modified to improve driveability but that usually brings an increase in peak torque as well.

[alfaspecial]

Thanks for the replies, folks.


Note, from the link the cheapest version the SE model becomes the Elegance
It seems the new, face-lifted model is £25,795 (base model/price).
The old run-out model is £21,295 (& Car Wow shows a £1000 discount), so the face-lifted model is 20% more.
Source: https://listers.co.uk/new/cars/honda/jazz?f=search...



Benefit is 20% more power but, according to Club Jazz, (yes, there is a 'CLUB' for Honda Jazz owners....) this does not 'appear' to change performance / economy. At least not according to the figures in the above link. So it must be all about improved drive-ability.
And shiny bits

This might be of interest:

Edited by alfaspecial on Sunday 12th March 08:00

[Undercover McNoName]

Disclaimer: I don't have any experience with a Honda Jazz, at all, but I do own an Alfa Romeo and have access to Yaris hybrids and Renault Zoe's at my job.

If I was faced with the choice of CVT hybrid or an EV, I would always go with an EV.

[alfaspecial]

Undercover McNoName said:

Disclaimer: I don't have any experience with a Honda Jazz, at all, but I do own an Alfa Romeo and have access to Yaris hybrids and Renault Zoe's at my job.

If I was faced with the choice of CVT hybrid or an EV, I would always go with an EV.

Thanks. Please could I ask why you would choose a BEV rather than a hybrid?

Our nominal budget is say £20k (Jazz - the basic car suits our needs can be had for this nominal £20k)
I looked on this website https://wattev2buy.com/uk-ev-market-price-list-ele...

And sorted BEVs by price. Other than the Twizzy the cheapest EV is the SEATMii @ £18000. Too small, range under 100 miles.
Berlingo £20k very limited range. The MG5 has the range but £7000 (compared to the hybrid Jazz) buys a lot of petrol

It seems that BEVs are a LOT more to buy. I'm not sure that for our sort of usage an EV with a range of over (say) 300 miles is just perhaps a little rich.

In time, hopefully, BEV ranges will increase and prices fall. But until then I'm of the opinion that a hybrid is the way to go. Possibly!
But I am open to anyone's advice / experiences.

[plfrench]

alfaspecial said:

Thanks. Please could I ask why you would choose a BEV rather than a hybrid?

Our nominal budget is say £20k (Jazz - the basic car suits our needs can be had for this nominal £20k)
I looked on this website https://wattev2buy.com/uk-ev-market-price-list-ele...

And sorted BEVs by price. Other than the Twizzy the cheapest EV is the SEATMii @ £18000. Too small, range under 100 miles.
Berlingo £20k very limited range. The MG5 has the range but £7000 (compared to the hybrid Jazz) buys a lot of petrol

It seems that BEVs are a LOT more to buy. I'm not sure that for our sort of usage an EV with a range of over (say) 300 miles is just perhaps a little rich.

In time, hopefully, BEV ranges will increase and prices fall. But until then I'm of the opinion that a hybrid is the way to go. Possibly!
But I am open to anyone's advice / experiences.

Can you charge at home, and how much daily driving do you do?

I was very impressed by the Zoe we had for a month - the EV drivetrain is just so much better than any ice / hybrid in terms of daily driving use. Instant response, quiet, smooth, just lifts the whole car. I genuinely preferred the Zoe drivetrain to that of my E350d for general use as it was just so much more precise to use.

The Zoe gave a solid 180-200 miles range without trying - very good bit of kit, and you'd get a year old one in budget.

[Undercover McNoName]

alfaspecial said:

Thanks. Please could I ask why you would choose a BEV rather than a hybrid?

Our nominal budget is say £20k (Jazz - the basic car suits our needs can be had for this nominal £20k)
I looked on this website https://wattev2buy.com/uk-ev-market-price-list-ele...

And sorted BEVs by price. Other than the Twizzy the cheapest EV is the SEATMii @ £18000. Too small, range under 100 miles.
Berlingo £20k very limited range. The MG5 has the range but £7000 (compared to the hybrid Jazz) buys a lot of petrol

It seems that BEVs are a LOT more to buy. I'm not sure that for our sort of usage an EV with a range of over (say) 300 miles is just perhaps a little rich.

In time, hopefully, BEV ranges will increase and prices fall. But until then I'm of the opinion that a hybrid is the way to go. Possibly!
But I am open to anyone's advice / experiences.

The above poster actually answered most of it quite well :-)

But to add, in case of most electric cars, they're just so much more nice as well as more fun to drive at sub-motorway speeds. In the case of the Zoe, the only thing that lets it down is the steering and lack of one pedal driving (and rwd, but it's a small city car, so must people wont care).

And, I just can't stand the thrumming of those three pots coupled with a CVT, especially compared to the quietness of an EV.

To counter the Jazz, I would consider the BMW i3, which is RWD and handles really well, and is really clever engineered and packaged. As fun as my old MX-5 I used to have, if you can live with the styling.

How many times a year do you actually do 300 miles without a stop?

[wyson]

From reliability surveys, and mechanics talking on youtube, you probably have to temper your expectations about reliability with Honda’s now. Their new cars are very middle of the pack because of all the new tech in them. Japanese cars developed their reputations for reliability because manufacturers polished tried and tested tech. Because of all the regulations now, they aren’t able to do this anymore, and have to ‘innovate’.

[Whataguy]

The MG4 at £26k compared to a Jazz is maybe £6k purchase difference , but you need to calculate all the savings you get with an EV.

Such as servicing costs, fuel, extended warranty, insurance, etc.

My 21 Jazz cost the same as a 21 Polo gti to insure as the parts costs are crazy prices.

Jazz servicing was £200-£400 a year. There is also the extended warranty to pay for.

I've very recently driven a new Yaris Cross hybrid for a day, and withdraw my earlier recommendation - there is not really a comparison to a pure EV for smoothness and quiet.

[alfaspecial]

Thanks for the replies. We had a test drive of the Jazz yesterday. Very impressed. Seemed to be quite an improvement over our ancient one.
TBH, I wish I hadn't posted this thread - I've opened a real can of worms and perhaps we should have a try of a true BEV?

plfrench, yesterday @ 11.34
We don't have a fast charger facility at home. Obviously we might have to consider upgrading from a plug in standard charger. Our cars are used less than daily. My Alfa Romeo 'special' is purely high days and holidays. The Mini Cooper is my partner's work car - although she is mainly working from home (perhaps we should 'get rid'). The Jazz is our shopping and holiday car. We are (for example) staying in Cornwall in a few weeks time (self catering holiday cottage) - we take most of a weeks food pre-cooked and frozen. Many years ago we had a VW Lupo which, was a bit too small for our usage.


Undercover McNoName yesterday @16.43
Will have a look at the i3. On paper looks a bit small for our needs
We do 2-300 mile journeys (holiday/family visits about 8 times a year -and need to do 8 return trips as well!)


Wyson today 0.09
I'll have to look into reliability surveys. Obviously you are right - are existing (ICE) manufacturers able to make BEVs etc reliable?

Whataguy today 5.33
Will need to look further into servicing costs. The Jazz can come with a 5 year service plan

[Undercover McNoName]

Well, if you could live with a short break/stop half way through your 200-300 mile trip for charging (which you might would've done anyways?), there's no reason not go BEV for you usage.

I would say, if you don't mind Honda Jazz type of cars, there's Nissan Leafs, Renault Zoes, MG 4, 5 and ZS as well as Hyundai Konas to choose from.

As EVs are quite simple mechanically, there is nothing against buying one from the ICE manufacturers. I'd be more vary of the hybrid Honda when it's out of warranty.

Edited by Undercover McNoName on Tuesday 14th March 07:32