Dealer: the Taycan was good for us; it's now a disaster
Discussion
It’s not so much that they will move, just that they will move the money to another tax efficient vehicle (in the Broadway sense.)
It’s not fair nor a good look but it’s real life. Making tax fair and also effective is very hard to achieve (probably impossible in fact, you can’t please everyone.) just look at how the recent pensions reforms aimed at senior doctors to help the NHS have had a massive collateral benefit to bankers and other high earners that most of the public wouldn’t want to reward better.
It’s not fair nor a good look but it’s real life. Making tax fair and also effective is very hard to achieve (probably impossible in fact, you can’t please everyone.) just look at how the recent pensions reforms aimed at senior doctors to help the NHS have had a massive collateral benefit to bankers and other high earners that most of the public wouldn’t want to reward better.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My point was that in the face of an increasing personal tax + corporation tax burden also suggesting that they are being subsidized by low earners is laughable. Keep taking away the benefits of earning that kind of money and people can, and are, buggering off as their ability to generate that kind of income is attractive to other economies.Who's going to pick up the tax shortfall then?
Earthdweller said:
Pflanzgarten said:
God forbid there’s any reward for working hard and being successful.
Some of the hardest working people are very successful in their careers but will never ever be able to afford a brand new taycanBut having said that they could save your life because of their hard work and success
Take away the whole EV/ICE or whatever power you want to think of, it boils down to this:
Some people have been massively incentivised to lease/pcp/purchase cars at a much higher price than they would ever have done so before
They will/have benefited massively on the cheap( almost free ) running of cars costing £120k and the manufacturers/dealers have had a bonanza
Problem is it’s like a Ponzi scheme as those that haven’t/can’t benefit from the incentives were never in the position to lease/buy/purchase a secondhand car for £100k
They were and are still in the position where they’d buy a 2 or 3 year old car for £20-40k but the supply of those cars has dried up and the people that were buying high depreciating company cars at around the £60k mark are now stepping out of £120k cars
And there is a vanishingly small market for four door saloons, two/three years old, that do 0–60 in a nanosecond, and have business miles on them for £90-100k regardless of whatever fuel they run on!
And that is a massive problem for Porsche ( and others ) and it’s only going to get worse, much worse
Some people have been massively incentivised to lease/pcp/purchase cars at a much higher price than they would ever have done so before
They will/have benefited massively on the cheap( almost free ) running of cars costing £120k and the manufacturers/dealers have had a bonanza
Problem is it’s like a Ponzi scheme as those that haven’t/can’t benefit from the incentives were never in the position to lease/buy/purchase a secondhand car for £100k
They were and are still in the position where they’d buy a 2 or 3 year old car for £20-40k but the supply of those cars has dried up and the people that were buying high depreciating company cars at around the £60k mark are now stepping out of £120k cars
And there is a vanishingly small market for four door saloons, two/three years old, that do 0–60 in a nanosecond, and have business miles on them for £90-100k regardless of whatever fuel they run on!
And that is a massive problem for Porsche ( and others ) and it’s only going to get worse, much worse
Edited by Earthdweller on Sunday 19th March 11:59
Soupdragon65 said:
But doesn’t it also create an incredible
opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
Depends on your idea of a good price.opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
If the market price is falling, then last month's 'good price' becomes a bad price.
It may just be that these things have to be viewed as A N Other EV, rather than as a Porsche.
Different depreciation profile, different attitude to used cars holding their value.
People are happy to pay big money for used IC Porsches, they are used to a world of Porsche ownership where you can buy a 3 year old one and not lose too much money on it. There's no reason for the Taycan to belong to that world rather than the world where most EVs depreciate like most other cars.
You could buy one at a 'bargain' price, lose £20k in a year and it's still an expensive car for the next buyer.
What is its intrinsic value?
There's a small market between people who will just buy a new one and people who can't afford £50k for a used car or don't want one that badly.
That small market is easily flooded.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You seem to make the mistake of assuming that the only alternative for that £120k is for the government to exercise its right to confiscate half of it.In many cases the government will not see much or any of that money. It can be contributed to pensions (even more so from April) or in the case of company owners it might just get left in the bank for a rainy day. It doesn't have to be distributed PAYE and taxed to death.
It's a strange world when you can spend your own earned income on a low tax company car along with £20k of VAT in the process, whilst enduring punitive tax rates in other areas, and still have the net beneficiaries of the glorious state sat there convinced its all at their expense.
Pflanzgarten said:
God forbid there’s any reward for working hard and being successful.
Yup. It's quite clear, thread after thread, that we live in a country where someone generating wealth vastly above the wealth that the "average bloke" generates provokes intense hatred and jealously. It's almost like the culture here is that people feel content when everyone else around them is more miserable than they are.
Victim mindset, through and through.
Soupdragon65 said:
But doesn’t it also create an incredible
opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
All I see are 3 year old cars at 80% list.opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
Show me a 3 year old car at 50% list price (ignoring the vanity options the first owner felt they had to specify)
As others have mentioned, there's a huge market of buyers happy to spend £40k on a 3 year old car.
Soupdragon65 said:
But doesn’t it also create an incredible
opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
The UK's best-selling cars of 2022 opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
Nissan Qashqai
Vauxhall Corsa
Tesla Model Y
Ford Puma
MINI
Kia Sportage
Hyundai Tucson
Volkswagen Golf
Ford Kuga
Ford Fiesta
How many buyers of these cars are going to buy a "lightly used" Taycan at £70k+?
The buyers of these cars are the motorists who need to change to EVs if the Govt is to have a chance of using cars to help meet its targets for reducing CO2, pollution, noise, etc.
Glosphil said:
Soupdragon65 said:
But doesn’t it also create an incredible
opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
The UK's best-selling cars of 2022 opportunity for private buyers to pick up a lightly used Taycan at a good price?
Nissan Qashqai
Vauxhall Corsa
Tesla Model Y
Ford Puma
MINI
Kia Sportage
Hyundai Tucson
Volkswagen Golf
Ford Kuga
Ford Fiesta
How many buyers of these cars are going to buy a "lightly used" Taycan at £70k+?
The buyers of these cars are the motorists who need to change to EVs if the Govt is to have a chance of using cars to help meet its targets for reducing CO2, pollution, noise, etc.
Private buyers lapped up the £20k+ 3 year old cast off company cars, they won’t be all over £70k+ Taycans
What is/was desirable new has little desirability secondhand
Earthdweller said:
The people in taycans were previously in 3/5 series and the like .. tax made the taycans cheaper for them
Private buyers lapped up the £20k+ 3 year old cast off company cars, they won’t be all over £70k+ Taycans
What is/was desirable new has little desirability secondhand
They are 100% desirable, why wouldn't they be? The problem is not enough people can afford them as £70k of cash/HP is a challenge for private sale cars and with used PCP rates from dealers being so high you might as well buy new if not able to go the company car/SS route.Private buyers lapped up the £20k+ 3 year old cast off company cars, they won’t be all over £70k+ Taycans
What is/was desirable new has little desirability secondhand
SWoll said:
Earthdweller said:
The people in taycans were previously in 3/5 series and the like .. tax made the taycans cheaper for them
Private buyers lapped up the £20k+ 3 year old cast off company cars, they won’t be all over £70k+ Taycans
What is/was desirable new has little desirability secondhand
They are 100% desirable, why wouldn't they be? The problem is not enough people can afford them as £70k of cash/HP is a challenge for private sale cars and with used PCP rates from dealers being so high you might as well buy new if not able to go the company car/SS route.Private buyers lapped up the £20k+ 3 year old cast off company cars, they won’t be all over £70k+ Taycans
What is/was desirable new has little desirability secondhand
That is Porsche’s problem and why they are piling up on dealer forecourts
OutInTheShed said:
It may just be that these things have to be viewed as A N Other EV, rather than as a Porsche.
Different depreciation profile, different attitude to used cars holding their value.
People are happy to pay big money for used IC Porsches, they are used to a world of Porsche ownership where you can buy a 3 year old one and not lose too much money on it. There's no reason for the Taycan to belong to that world rather than the world where most EVs depreciate like most other cars.
Very good point, that is 'luxury' EVs might well not follow the normal slower Porsche/Ferrari etc depreciation curve and might instead depreciate more rapidly like a normal EV.Different depreciation profile, different attitude to used cars holding their value.
People are happy to pay big money for used IC Porsches, they are used to a world of Porsche ownership where you can buy a 3 year old one and not lose too much money on it. There's no reason for the Taycan to belong to that world rather than the world where most EVs depreciate like most other cars.
I recall the statistic that the majority of 911s ever made are still on the road today. Will a Taycan (arguably just VAG parts bin product) with an outdated and depleted battery even be on the road in 15 years, never mind 25+? Highly unlikely. I suspect that severe depreciation will be the norm for luxury expensive EVs.
Earthdweller said:
They are not desirable because (most) people don’t want them, It’s not about the quality of the product but I really don’t think private buyers wish to spend £70k on a secondhand four door family car, what is wished for is a £20k used 3 series or a new Corsa
That is Porsche’s problem and why they are piling up on dealer forecourts
And Porsche aren’t currently trying too hard to shift them either - current PCP rates are 10.9% vs BMW quoted rates of 5.9%. That is Porsche’s problem and why they are piling up on dealer forecourts
There are nearly 600 Taycans currently on Autotrader vs 700 odd Tesla M3 and that is also not including any Approved Used Porsche cars not currently listed.
I can’t help thinking that they’ve still got to drop a bit further. Cheapest approved used is a 2020 £73k 4S on 30k miles. Cheapest private sale is £65k 4S on 50k miles. I’d be tempted if they came closer to £60k with a better rate on the drip for an approved car.
Edited to add that there are far fewer Etron GTs but £70k buys you a newer barely used example.
Edited by Benny Saltstein on Sunday 19th March 21:31
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well they are, but its not down to whether a car is subsidised, it’s taxation in general. Anyone earning £100k or just over looks at ways to get rid of it because of this stupid 65% tax bracket that exists, I don’t think there is any justification for their being a point where the government takes more of your earned cash than you, if they sorted that out and just brought the 45% bracket down to £100k then less people would be looking for tax incentives to stop the pillaging.While I have always assumed expensive EVs would depreciate hard because of the BIK situation on new EVs (which obviously totally distorts the value and the market) and I’m struggling to see the value in expensive EVs, factually people do buy new Taycans because they like them and some used car buyers buy expensive cars so I’m not sure they’re worthless or anything. Around the £50k mark I’d say they could be a safe enough buy.
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