First EV, need a charger - any deals or electric suppliers?

[guitarcarfanatic]

Ref. Zappi, a few vids on YouTube about them changing guidelines (and possibly having a hard time financially).

They seem to have a high failure rate, and are allegedly suddenly more difficult to deal with of late. It follows them changing their installation guidelines about requiring an upstream RCD (despite having one in the device itself). Previously, their training course told installers it wasn't needed (although good practice to protect the wire). The regs now want one installed, and they are refusing warranty claims until circuits are rectified (despite these older installs being fitted as per their guidance!). The excellent SOTA Electrical on YouTube has put up a good video today.

[No ideas for a name]

guitarcarfanatic said:

andy43 said:

Based on the Tesla charger being capable of plugging into a 13 amp socket as well as a 32 amp commando socket run off the same rcd in the same consumer unit I can’t see the difference, unless I’m missing something?

The risk is there for either - see below: (borrowed from the excellent Jeremy Harris on Speak EV)...

Jeremy Harris on Speak EV said:

The open PEN fault risk is the same with a granny lead as it is with a non-open PEN fault protected charge point. All outlets intended for charging EVs (not just charge points) are supposed to comply with BS7671:2018 Section 722, but the reality is that many do not, and anyway, there is an argument that an outlet installed to run a Class 2 appliance (like a lawnmower) doesn't need open PEN fault protection (as there are no exposed conductive parts), so the outlet could be said to be compliant with the regs if it wasn't put in specifically for car charging.

The regs do not apply to the granny lead itself, as it's not installed electrical equipment, it's classed as an appliance. That doesn't change anything in terms of the possible risk, but does mean that there is no obligation on granny lead manufacturers to put in any protection measures that may be required by the wiring regs.

In practice, the view regarding appliances that connect to any outdoor exposed conductive part is that the outlet supplying them should have open PEN fault protection. This goes back way before EVs, and includes things like metal framed greenhouses, metal buildings, caravans and hot tubs, all of which really need open PEN fault protection and have done for many years (not that it's ever been formalised in the wiring regs, though, it was always just a "good practice" thing, or sometimes in the MIs for things like hot tubs and caravan hook up boxes).

In terms of risk, no one has yet really done much about the risk that granny leads present, because the assumption is that they are really a "get out of jail" device, that won't be used very often. The theory is reasonable, we get around 300 to 500 open PEN faults a year, and each only usually lasts a very short time. The probability of someone using a granny lead at the same time as their supply has an open PEN fault, and at the same time as someone is standing on the ground and touching the car, is assumed to be very low, much lower than for a fixed charge point that may be in use for several hours every day. Of course, if someone chooses to use a granny lead as their only, or primary, means of charging then the risk is actually greater than that from a fixed charge point, just because the charge rate is lower so the time plugged in is much longer.

The car being a big metal thing, worst case, an open PEN fault will make the body live and you will get a whack (being stood on earth).

Edited by guitarcarfanatic on Saturday 16th March 14:11

Thanks for posting that... I was trying to look up my references and failing.

I have said it before, but I think we are still in the 'Wild West' of EV charging. To be fair the standards/recommendations are changing/evolving, but it does seem that many installers are not understanding the issues. Even fewer users will be up to speed with the risks and regulations.

So, in short, yes a socket (even a 32A 'Commando') intended to be used with EV charging should have suitable fault protection. Easiest does appear to be by using an earth rod though there is a lot of resistance (no pun) on here to doing it that way. I realise the risk of hammerimng a spike through other services, but it isn't that hard.
You are not then relying on an active device, and contactor drop out times to provide protection.

Appologies if it is off topic - I realise it is mainly an EV driver's forum rather than an electrician's theory forum!

[guitarcarfanatic]

No ideas for a name said:

So, in short, yes a socket (even a 32A 'Commando') intended to be used with EV charging should have suitable fault protection. Easiest does appear to be by using an earth rod though there is a lot of resistance (no pun) on here to doing it that way. I realise the risk of hammering a spike through other services, but it isn't that hard.
You are not then relying on an active device, and contactor drop out times to provide protection.

I think the challenge with a local earth solution like a rod is the changeable nature of soil and weather. We are on a TT earthing arrangement here and the earth rod was tested at a resistance value of 42 ohms. The guidelines say <200...but you normally aim for 100. For a local earth on an EV device, I think the target is 70.

My 42 could easily exceed 70 during a prolonged dry spell etc. So it's no guarantee, just because it's weather dependent. If you fit a separate PEN fault device (they are sub £100), you are guaranteed the protection.

Continuing electrical theory...the other concern with commando sockets or some of the early style chargers is they lack a RDC-DD. So the DC could blind the AC side of the supply and make other circuits in the house have compromised protection.

Current installs have to have a type B RCD or a Type A RCD and separate RDC-DD protection. Type AC RCD's are not permitted.

But agreed, the legislation is moving quickly all the time! And I suspect the goalposts will move again at some point!

[olliel]

Some very knowledgeable people on here.
If one was wanting to add PEN fault protection to a commando socket to use for EV charging, what device would be best to install please?

We have a commando socket, and I’d be convenient to use for the odd times I do charge at home rather than free at work.

Thanks

[andy43]

olliel said:

Some very knowledgeable people on here.
If one was wanting to add PEN fault protection to a commando socket to use for EV charging, what device would be best to install please?

We have a commando socket, and I’d be convenient to use for the odd times I do charge at home rather than free at work.

Thanks

After being warned I could be killed to death in an electrical storm of epic proportions I thought about the risk - if my car is charging I approach the car, press the fob to unlock, press a plastic button on a plastic surround to release the plastic charging plug, then hook that over a plastic down pipe bracket before touching the plastic car door handle. I also googled - look for PME or PEN RCD or RCBO. There’s Garo consumer units on eBay for about £90 - you’d just put one of those between your supply and the socket.

[James6112]

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

[No ideas for a name]

James6112 said:

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

Should be fine assuming it is rated correctly (in theory it should be - just depends if it was done properly in the first place).
No issues I can see with running a separate data cable.
'Data' might be misleading in this case as it is possible it isn't network data, but maybe just a signal back to a CT at the consumer unit/meter.
Either way, cat5 cable should be fine. A combined cable is easier to pull through in one, and a bit neater if you were not starting with an existing run.

This isn't to say that some work at the CU end wouldn't be necessary in terms of the right type of breakers etc, but the actual cable run should be fine.

[theboss]

James6112 said:

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

I would run a data cable or two and did indeed for my Zappi's even if you don't intend to use them, they are just there for the future. In my case I use one for ethernet and the other for 3 x hardwired CT clamps if needed in the future.

[Frankychops]

sidekickdmr said:

Hey gang,

Have a new Tesla coming next week, and need to sort a home charger.

Before I just buy one for £££ and pay for a sparkie to install it, i recall a deal with a energy supplier (octopus?) a year or so ago where they would install the EV charger and offer you cheaper night charging.

So, 2 questions:

1. Rather than buying a £500 Tesla charger and then a local sparkie to install it, are there any all in deals to consider for the charger alone?

2. We are due an energy supplier change anyway, any to consider/avoid for home EV charging?

Thanks

the tesla is the best value for money option, works with ocotopus also. also they've got a nice long lead which is useful.

[essayer]

I doubt it’s best value because it requires £100+ of additional equipment to be installed
However, it is one of the better looking ones

[James6112]

No ideas for a name said:

James6112 said:

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

Should be fine assuming it is rated correctly (in theory it should be - just depends if it was done properly in the first place).
No issues I can see with running a separate data cable.
'Data' might be misleading in this case as it is possible it isn't network data, but maybe just a signal back to a CT at the consumer unit/meter.
Either way, cat5 cable should be fine. A combined cable is easier to pull through in one, and a bit neater if you were not starting with an existing run.

This isn't to say that some work at the CU end wouldn't be necessary in terms of the right type of breakers etc, but the actual cable run should be fine.

Thanks, will get someone around.
The existing is fine. It was installed & consumer unit changed at the same time about 10 years ago. Have the signoff etc

[guitarcarfanatic]

James6112 said:

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

Same as everyone else, should be fine (assuming the cable is appropriately sized). You only need data if your fitting a CT clamp. If your supply is big enough and there isn't any problems with supply capacity, it isn't really needed. If you have a 60a supply, needed. 80a - depends on what else is installed. 100a - probs not, but depends on what else is installed.

[James6112]

guitarcarfanatic said:

James6112 said:

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

Same as everyone else, should be fine (assuming the cable is appropriately sized). You only need data if your fitting a CT clamp. If your supply is big enough and there isn't any problems with supply capacity, it isn't really needed. If you have a 60a supply, needed. 80a - depends on what else is installed. 100a - probs not, but depends on what else is installed.

Seems ok then thanks
100a
The ‘tails’ were also beefed up by the Smart Meter fitter

[guitarcarfanatic]

James6112 said:

Seems ok then thanks
100a
The ‘tails’ were also beefed up by the Smart Meter fitter

Assuming you haven't got a couple electric showers or 3 kitchens with induction hobs, you shouldn't need a CT clamp (and you could always add data yourself at a later date). Just pick a charger with 4g or wifi.

[coolerking72]

John87 said:

Dolf Stoppard said:

Octopus quoted me ten weeks to install an Ohme e-pod. Two days after I paid they emailed to say we’ll be with you next week. I suspect the £899 option will do most people. I think it’s drill through one external wall and ten metres of cabling. They actually drilled through two for mine so they could feed the cable into the porch where I wanted it installed. First charge coming up this afternoon.

I was similar timing with octopus. Paid slightly more though as I went for tethered with the longer cable and surge protector

same here. paid for the charger through Octopus 2 days ago and they are fitting next Monday , so don't be put off by their 12-16 lead time

[Ledaig]

Ledaig said:

They put that for me as well when I looked at them. My energy contract doesn't finish until August so it wasn't a show stopper for me, plus I can charge at work.

But - I ordered a Zappi from them on the 10th March and it's being installed on the 25th March, so only two weeks in the end.

Just to update on this, the install went ahead today, so that's 15 days from point of order via Octopus.

I'm looking forward to my neighbour getting home today as he's a bit odd and a genuine 'EV's will all self combust and consume the planet' conspiracy nut

[gmaz]

James6112 said:

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

I am in a similar position. Victorian terrace with CU at the front of the house but parking at the back. There was a power shower cable on a 40A breaker that could have been used, but the sparky said they would not use it as it would contravene their EIC/NIC (?) certification to repurpose cabling that another electrician had installed at some point in the past.

[andy43]

gmaz said:

James6112 said:

I have an unused 32a point, straight back to the fuse board, from a long gone hottub.

An easy run to where EV charger would go
(meter is in a nightmare spot in middle of house..)

In theory could that be used?

Sparky I called was pushing towards combined EV & data cable.

I could run a separate data cable very easily. Also wi-fi is strong there..

I am in a similar position. Victorian terrace with CU at the front of the house but parking at the back. There was a power shower cable on a 40A breaker that could have been used, but the sparky said they would not use it as it would contravene their EIC/NIC (?) certification to repurpose cabling that another electrician had installed at some point in the past.

Ker-ching. The basic idea behind EVs is to reduce emissions, use of resources etc (or less BIK in our case). You’d kind of hope you wouldn’t need to pay for 20 metres of heavy duty copper cable when you already have some installed, but what do I know?

[guitarcarfanatic]

gmaz said:

I am in a similar position. Victorian terrace with CU at the front of the house but parking at the back. There was a power shower cable on a 40A breaker that could have been used, but the sparky said they would not use it as it would contravene their EIC/NIC (?) certification to repurpose cabling that another electrician had installed at some point in the past.

What a stupid position. Visually check what you can, check it on the megger and crack on!

[sidekickdmr]

Thank you all for your help.

I got the tesla charger from Amazon

Electrician fitted it for £380

And I will be changing over to octopus intelligent asap

All sorted!