Westminster Council disincentivise EVs from tomorrow

[Ken_Code]

SWoll said:

The very definition given above is "to discourage by removing an incentive", which is what the OP described.

By all means take your argument up with dictionary.com.

If I ever decide to start communicating in US English I may.

[z4RRSchris]

I use(d) this alot for parking near the office, and judging by the amount of EV's in St James Square everyone else did also.

pretty annoying

[Zigster]

I’m disinterested (uninterested?) in the semantics.

On the subject of public pricing, I agree that it makes sense that it should be more than home charging because of infrastructure costs which need recouping. Also, it doesn’t make sense to compare a cheap overnight rate on a 7kW charger at home with a 350kW motorway charge on a Friday lunchtime.

But Tesla tends to charge around 40p per kWh, maybe up to 55p sometimes in high demand. Shell Recharge charges 85p-95p. Imagine if there were two petrol stations close to each other, one charging £1.50 per litre and the other (Shell) charging £3.00. Wouldn’t you think that the Shell one was taking the piss and wouldn’t stop there?

I have a Shell Recharge in my Tesla glovebox which has never been used. I applied for it because there is a Shell Recharge station near my northern family for when I visit. But at 85p+ per kW, I just give my sister a £20 and plug it in overnight at hers instead. Shell is doing a terrible job of trying to keep themselves relevant once demand for petrol and diesel really starts to decrease.

[Terminator X]

Zigster said:

I’m disinterested (uninterested?) in the semantics.

On the subject of public pricing, I agree that it makes sense that it should be more than home charging because of infrastructure costs which need recouping. Also, it doesn’t make sense to compare a cheap overnight rate on a 7kW charger at home with a 350kW motorway charge on a Friday lunchtime.

But Tesla tends to charge around 40p per kWh, maybe up to 55p sometimes in high demand. Shell Recharge charges 85p-95p. Imagine if there were two petrol stations close to each other, one charging £1.50 per litre and the other (Shell) charging £3.00. Wouldn’t you think that the Shell one was taking the piss and wouldn’t stop there?

I have a Shell Recharge in my Tesla glovebox which has never been used. I applied for it because there is a Shell Recharge station near my northern family for when I visit. But at 85p+ per kW, I just give my sister a £20 and plug it in overnight at hers instead. Shell is doing a terrible job of trying to keep themselves relevant once demand for petrol and diesel really starts to decrease.

At some point you will be charged the same for power as they charge for petrol. Perhaps more assuming people charge at home (so lost revenue) vs people that can't fill their car with fuel at home.

TX.

[plfrench]

Terminator X said:

At some point you will be charged the same for power as they charge for petrol. Perhaps more assuming people charge at home (so lost revenue) vs people that can't fill their car with fuel at home.

TX.

Surely they'd not get any custom if they did that though, so would be a bit daft. The supermarkets are already closing in on this space and I can't see Shell being able to pull the old V-Power premium electrons trick here in order to justify a premium! Sainsbury's new Smartcharge network started at 75p/kWh, but is clearly primed to get competitive with their large price displays above the chargers (normally the pricing is a bit more hidden, i.e. you need to look in an app).

[GT9]

Terminator X said:

At some point you will be charged the same for power as they charge for petrol. Perhaps more assuming people charge at home (so lost revenue) vs people that can't fill their car with fuel at home.

TX.

If fuel and electricity cost is measured in energy (not power) and one car uses a third or a quarter of the energy than the other one, does it not seem logical that it should cost less to run?
Simplistically, your ICE's fuel bill is to heat the atmosphere with your radiator much more than it is to move you down the road.

[Terminator X]

GT9 said:

Terminator X said:

At some point you will be charged the same for power as they charge for petrol. Perhaps more assuming people charge at home (so lost revenue) vs people that can't fill their car with fuel at home.

TX.

If fuel and electricity cost is measured in energy (not power) and one car uses a third or a quarter of the energy than the other one, does it not seem logical that it should cost less to run?
Simplistically, your ICE's fuel bill is to heat the atmosphere with your radiator much more than it is to move you down the road.

How will they recover the fuel revenue and Vat etc if EV isn't charged the same at the "pump"?

TX.

[Nomme de Plum]

Terminator X said:

GT9 said:

Terminator X said:

At some point you will be charged the same for power as they charge for petrol. Perhaps more assuming people charge at home (so lost revenue) vs people that can't fill their car with fuel at home.

TX.

If fuel and electricity cost is measured in energy (not power) and one car uses a third or a quarter of the energy than the other one, does it not seem logical that it should cost less to run?
Simplistically, your ICE's fuel bill is to heat the atmosphere with your radiator much more than it is to move you down the road.

How will they recover the fuel revenue and Vat etc if EV isn't charged the same at the "pump"?

TX.

Possibly road pricing per mile.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

It will be a few years yet before the impact starts to get significant. We may reach 10% EV by mid 2027.

[Terminator X]

Nomme de Plum said:

Terminator X said:

GT9 said:

Terminator X said:

At some point you will be charged the same for power as they charge for petrol. Perhaps more assuming people charge at home (so lost revenue) vs people that can't fill their car with fuel at home.

TX.

If fuel and electricity cost is measured in energy (not power) and one car uses a third or a quarter of the energy than the other one, does it not seem logical that it should cost less to run?
Simplistically, your ICE's fuel bill is to heat the atmosphere with your radiator much more than it is to move you down the road.

How will they recover the fuel revenue and Vat etc if EV isn't charged the same at the "pump"?

TX.

Possibly road pricing per mile.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

It will be a few years yet before the impact starts to get significant. We may reach 10% EV by mid 2027.

Same, also interested to see how it all plays out.

TX.

[GT9]

Terminator X said:

Same, also interested to see how it all plays out.

TX.

There is an (admittedly weak) argument that says we shouldn't need to raise as much revenue to pay for the cost of dealing with ICE emissions.
I appreciate that the link to health and environmental cost would be considered tenuous and probable non-existent by some, and there would also no doubt be a delayed effect before benefit can be realised or measured.
I think it's reasonable to expect that the tax per mile would need to run at about the same, at least for now.

[z4RRSchris]

CC is still £10pa for EV's, and loads of parking permits (tower hamlets is a tenner pa) are very cheap for EV's

not all doom and gloom, bit annoying i cant park outside work for free now however. will be interesting to see how many evs are parked in the square now the rules have changed.

[plfrench]

GT9 said:

Terminator X said:

Same, also interested to see how it all plays out.

TX.

There is an (admittedly weak) argument that says we shouldn't need to raise as much revenue to pay for the cost of dealing with ICE emissions.
I appreciate that the link to health and environmental cost would be considered tenuous and probable non-existent by some, and there would also no doubt be a delayed effect before benefit can be realised or measured.
I think it's reasonable to expect that the tax per mile would need to run at about the same, at least for now.

What about being able to offset tax burden with revenue generated from selling excess electricity generated by the grid to our interconnected neighbours? Is that less tenuous?

[SteveKTMer]

GT9 said:

Terminator X said:

Same, also interested to see how it all plays out.

TX.

There is an (admittedly weak) argument that says we shouldn't need to raise as much revenue to pay for the cost of dealing with ICE emissions.
I appreciate that the link to health and environmental cost would be considered tenuous and probable non-existent by some, and there would also no doubt be a delayed effect before benefit can be realised or measured.
I think it's reasonable to expect that the tax per mile would need to run at about the same, at least for now.

I'm more interested in seeing how the National Grid prediction in the presentation you posted comes to fruition, in that (from memory) it was suggesting that we will only have the grid capacity for about a fifth of the EVs that are currently planned, if every ICE vehicle is swapped for an EV with current battery tech. Given this was from the National Grid, I would hope the politicians are aware of it and working to fix it . . . yeah, this is the UK, so no.

If that prediction does come true then electricity will need to be rationed and illicit chargers will spring up all over the back lanes like black petrol in India. I can't wait

[smn159]

SteveKTMer said:

I'm more interested in seeing how the National Grid prediction in the presentation you posted comes to fruition, in that (from memory) it was suggesting that we will only have the grid capacity for about a fifth of the EVs that are currently planned, if every ICE vehicle is swapped for an EV with current battery tech. Given this was from the National Grid, I would hope the politicians are aware of it and working to fix it . . . yeah, this is the UK, so no.

If that prediction does come true then electricity will need to be rationed and illicit chargers will spring up all over the back lanes like black petrol in India. I can't wait

That's not what they say here

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-ne...

National Grid said:

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle.

[Evanivitch]

SteveKTMer said:

I'm more interested in seeing how the National Grid prediction in the presentation you posted comes to fruition, in that (from memory) it was suggesting that we will only have the grid capacity for about a fifth of the EVs that are currently planned, if every ICE vehicle is swapped for an EV with current battery tech. Given this was from the National Grid, I would hope the politicians are aware of it and working to fix it . . . yeah, this is the UK, so no.

If that prediction does come true then electricity will need to be rationed and illicit chargers will spring up all over the back lanes like black petrol in India. I can't wait

I'm sure NG are aware of something they never, ever said.

[GT9]

SteveKTMer said:

I'm more interested in seeing how the National Grid prediction in the presentation you posted comes to fruition, in that (from memory) it was suggesting that we will only have the grid capacity for about a fifth of the EVs that are currently planned, if every ICE vehicle is swapped for an EV with current battery tech. Given this was from the National Grid, I would hope the politicians are aware of it and working to fix it . . . yeah, this is the UK, so no.

If that prediction does come true then electricity will need to be rationed and illicit chargers will spring up all over the back lanes like black petrol in India. I can't wait

We currently have about 100 TWh per annum of wind operating or nearing completion.
Dogger Bank wind farm off the east coast currently being installed will have a capacity of 3.6 GW and is the world's largest farm to date. That should deliver about 20 TWh per annum.
The National Grid flowchart say 574 TWh of wind in 2050 for all consumers.
Therefore I said that capacity would need to grow five times at least, which is where I think you got ' one fifth' from.
It's taken 15 years to get from negligible wind capacity to 100 TWh.
The flowchart suggests 470 TWh would be added in the next 25 years, so the growth would need be 3 times what it was compared to the first 15 years.
Not an impossibility, but also not a walk in the park.
Much larger turbines are now available than previously, so the growth in the number of turbines isn't as high.

Edited by GT9 on Tuesday 16th April 19:57

[SteveKTMer]

GT9 said:

SteveKTMer said:

I'm more interested in seeing how the National Grid prediction in the presentation you posted comes to fruition, in that (from memory) it was suggesting that we will only have the grid capacity for about a fifth of the EVs that are currently planned, if every ICE vehicle is swapped for an EV with current battery tech. Given this was from the National Grid, I would hope the politicians are aware of it and working to fix it . . . yeah, this is the UK, so no.

If that prediction does come true then electricity will need to be rationed and illicit chargers will spring up all over the back lanes like black petrol in India. I can't wait

We currently have about 100 TWh per annum of wind operating or nearing completion.
Dogger Bank wind farm off the east coast currently being installed will have a capacity of 3.6 GW and is the world's largest farm to date. That should deliver about 20 TWh per annum.
The National Grid flowchart say 574 TWh of wind in 2050 for all consumers.
Therefore I said that capacity would need to grow five times at least, which is where I think you got ' one fifth' from.
It's taken 15 years to get from negligible wind capacity to 100 TWh.
The flowchart suggests 470 TWh would be added in the next 25 years, so the growth would need be 3 times what it was compared to the first 15 years.
Not an impossibility, but also not a walk in the park.
Much larger turbines are now available than previously, so the growth in the number of turbines isn't as high.

Edited by GT9 on Tuesday 16th April 19:57

Thanks, can you post the presentation again or let me know which thread it was on ? I did search but didn't find it.

[GT9]

SteveKTMer said:

Thanks, can you post the presentation again or let me know which thread it was on ? I did search but didn't find it.

Can't remember the thread, this document covers it though.
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/283056/do...

The ideal scenario for 2050 is 'Leading the Way'.
All scenarios have multiple increases in wind capacity by then.

[ashenfie]

SteveKTMer said:

GT9 said:

SteveKTMer said:

I'm more interested in seeing how the National Grid prediction in the presentation you posted comes to fruition, in that (from memory) it was suggesting that we will only have the grid capacity for about a fifth of the EVs that are currently planned, if every ICE vehicle is swapped for an EV with current battery tech. Given this was from the National Grid, I would hope the politicians are aware of it and working to fix it . . . yeah, this is the UK, so no.

If that prediction does come true then electricity will need to be rationed and illicit chargers will spring up all over the back lanes like black petrol in India. I can't wait

We currently have about 100 TWh per annum of wind operating or nearing completion.
Dogger Bank wind farm off the east coast currently being installed will have a capacity of 3.6 GW and is the world's largest farm to date. That should deliver about 20 TWh per annum.
The National Grid flowchart say 574 TWh of wind in 2050 for all consumers.
Therefore I said that capacity would need to grow five times at least, which is where I think you got ' one fifth' from.
It's taken 15 years to get from negligible wind capacity to 100 TWh.
The flowchart suggests 470 TWh would be added in the next 25 years, so the growth would need be 3 times what it was compared to the first 15 years.
Not an impossibility, but also not a walk in the park.
Much larger turbines are now available than previously, so the growth in the number of turbines isn't as high.

Edited by GT9 on Tuesday 16th April 19:57

Thanks, can you post the presentation again or let me know which thread it was on ? I did search but didn't find it.

I think the total grid power is not the issue, but routing power to the location it's needed is. If fibre laying costs £30 per meter and it seams to me that mains or 3 phase power for chargers is going to be at least x10 more than that. It's a rather expensive pipe dream, having the UK fully loads with street side parking and charging. Makes far more sense having charging stations partically when newer cars can take a good charge in under 40mins

[GT9]

ashenfie said:

I think the total grid power is not the issue, but routing power to the location it's needed is. If fibre laying costs £30 per meter and it seams to me that mains or 3 phase power for chargers is going to be at least x10 more than that. It's a rather expensive pipe dream, having the UK fully loads with street side parking and charging. Makes far more sense having charging stations partically when newer cars can take a good charge in under 40mins

Surely it makes much more sense to have three times as many wind turbines, an infinitely larger number of electrolysis plants and fuelling up a boring, cramped hybrid EV at a filling station 50 miles away and banning all those cars from enclosed spaces for good measure.