Anyone giving up EV?

[GT9]

sly fox said:

The rate of regen charging is high as you say, but you're only doing it for fractions of a second /a few seconds at a time. Can't make that much of a differnece to range - or does it ? interested to know.

The way to look at is that from an energy perspective, acceleration is exactly the same as deceleration, apart from the direction of flow.
If you are doing lots of acceleration, by definition you must also be doing pretty much the same amount of deceleration.
Even if you are coasting, you are still putting kinetic energy to good use, even better than regen to be honest.
It's the application of friction brakes that is the wasteful bit.
The amount of energy recovered in the EV during regen is clearly not 100%, but its a damn sight better than 0% in the ICE.
For the EV, the total amount of energy from the battery that is lost to heat associated with accelerating and decelerating the car is more dependent on what speed you choose to stop acceleration at rather than how fast you accelerate.
Which is why the high peak torque output of EVs (needed only momentarily to accelerate the car) doesn't destroy the range, that's more a function of your average speed over the journey.
Both kinetic energy and energy per mile lost to drag increase with the square of speed, so there is more total energy lost per mile (for the same efficiency) the faster you travel.
It is far less exaggerated than it is for an ICE, as can be seen in the Model 3 s Golf energy chart I posted earlier today on this thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[740EVTORQUES]

and in simplistic terms the wasted energy ends up largely as heat.

If you want to look for inefficiency, look for heat.

[CheesecakeRunner]

740EVTORQUES said:

and in simplistic terms the wasted energy ends up largely as heat.

If you want to look for inefficiency, look for heat.

And soulnoise.

[Fox-]

Evanivitch said:

Just seems entirely pointless to have an electric car which will cover the majority of daily usage and then have a diesel for the purpose of MPG. It would feel absolutely agricultural in comparison and wouldn't offer the driving experience of a good petrol engine. Seems such a weird combination.

Most households have two cars, I wasn't suggesting that someone who'd usually have one car would suddenly get two.

When my partners small city car needs replacing I'd really like it to be electric, it would be ideal for local use.

[KingGary]

CheesecakeRunner said:

740EVTORQUES said:

and in simplistic terms the wasted energy ends up largely as heat.

If you want to look for inefficiency, look for heat.

And soulnoise.

Does anyone, beyond some of the people on this thread care about how silent their car is or how little heat it generates? It reminds me of those people who measure how thick their paintwork is just so they can share it with people who couldn’t care less.

[cerb4.5lee]

Evanivitch said:

plfrench said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Evanivitch said:

Fox- said:

An ideal two car driveway would be a diesel with range like that and a small fully electric city car. I think a lot of the issues with electric cars are a result of trying to make them the answer to every question - they are not, but neither was a diesel car or a petrol car.

Why would a diesel be anywhere near a 2 car driveway? Grim.

Isn't a small full electric city car grim as well though? I certainly didn't reckon much to the smart full electric city car that I had as a loan car once.

I think he's referring to the emissions coming out of a Diesel exhaust as opposed to how it drives. There is an ever increasing push to get rid of Diesels from UK roads ASAP. I saw this yesterday which shows an incredible drop off in Diesel fuel sales both nationally and even more so in London, so it would appear the push is working:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/call-for-early-ba...

Just seems entirely pointless to have an electric car which will cover the majority of daily usage and then have a diesel for the purpose of MPG. It would feel absolutely agricultural in comparison and wouldn't offer the driving experience of a good petrol engine. Seems such a weird combination.

I guess it will differ for everyone. In our case the diesel does around 30k miles a year, whereas the petrol only does around 9k miles a year. So I guess that the petrol could be swapped for electric in fairness.

I personally wouldn't entertain 30k miles a year in electric, not yet anyway.

[740EVTORQUES]

KingGary said:

CheesecakeRunner said:

740EVTORQUES said:

and in simplistic terms the wasted energy ends up largely as heat.

If you want to look for inefficiency, look for heat.

And soulnoise.

Does anyone, beyond some of the people on this thread care about how silent their car is or how little heat it generates? It reminds me of those people who measure how thick their paintwork is just so they can share it with people who couldn’t care less.

The noise is insignificant by comparison, just look at how much noise a 150w speaker can put out.

But no, I’m not interested in how hot or noisy my car is per se.

What people care about is efficiency, why wouldn’t you you be interested in this?

[cerb4.5lee]

Fox- said:

plfrench said:

I think he's referring to the emissions coming out of a Diesel exhaust as opposed to how it drives. There is an ever increasing push to get rid of Diesels from UK roads ASAP. I saw this yesterday which shows an incredible drop off in Diesel fuel sales both nationally and even more so in London, so it would appear the push is working:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/call-for-early-ba...

As a result people who once drove up and down Motorways in a diesel now do so in a petrol instead. What has that done to CO2 emissions?

The problem with diesel was always pretending it was the answer to every motoring question. It never was - we should never have been able to buy a small city car with a diesel engine. But it was always very good at moving long distances with lower emissions and greater range than a petrol alternative.

You'd think we'd learn from the mistake of thinking one fuel type can be the answer to every motoring question.

Spot on, and it is easy to turn anything towards the narrative that you want it to be. But that completely ignores the fact that when is all said and done...petrol/diesel or electric are all flawed in one way or another.

[Mars]

740EVTORQUES said:

KingGary said:

CheesecakeRunner said:

740EVTORQUES said:

and in simplistic terms the wasted energy ends up largely as heat.

If you want to look for inefficiency, look for heat.

And soulnoise.

Does anyone, beyond some of the people on this thread care about how silent their car is or how little heat it generates? It reminds me of those people who measure how thick their paintwork is just so they can share it with people who couldn’t care less.

The noise is insignificant by comparison, just look at how much noise a 150w speaker can put out.

But no, I’m not interested in how hot or noisy my car is per se.

What people care about is efficiency, why wouldn’t you you be interested in this?

The NVH from my e-Corsa far exceeds the noise of a modern engine. It's quite tiring over time. Still like the car for what it does for me (cuts down on my "transportation" costs) but build quality and some design decisions are quite poor.

[WestyCarl]

cerb4.5lee said:

I guess it will differ for everyone. In our case the diesel does around 30k miles a year, whereas the petrol only does around 9k miles a year. So I guess that the petrol could be swapped for electric in fairness.

I personally wouldn't entertain 30k miles a year in electric, not yet anyway.

It really depends on other factors, I've done 55k in a Tesla 3 in 2yrs with only a couple of trips that needed planning.

However I can charge at home and work and live roughly in the middle of the England so chargng away form home / work is pretty good if needed.

[CheesecakeRunner]

KingGary said:

Does anyone, beyond some of the people on this thread care about how silent their car is or how little heat it generates? It reminds me of those people who measure how thick their paintwork is just so they can share it with people who couldn’t care less.

Not particularly, but a lot of people seem to have a hard-on for the opposite.

[stumpage]

Nomme de Plum said:

App wise, what exactly is the issue? Signing up, prepaying, already have two different apps, not sure how many I'll end up with

An hour sounds a very long time charging how many kW is that per charge? To be fair the 1st time it was me setting the app up etc and then messing up the start charge via the app, the second waiting to get on a charger then it was slow.

So when you are on stand. Do you say there all day with no breaks. Why not co-ordinate with lunch or similar break? Not on a stand have a list of meetings set for the day. A bit of a pain having to leave, un plug and then move.

Why did you choose the BMW i4 M50 it doesn't appear to have a great real world range? I choose a car because I like it and out of all the EVs it was the only that felt half decent and within budget. I've never given range a thought in the past as I could just fill up. My error as I went for an EV due to BIK savings thinking that by now the charging wouldn't be much of an issue. I know Tesla etc etc but that is one horrid car in my opinion and not an interior I would want to spend any time in

Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 17th April 13:41

This issue is I think I made a BIG mistake going EV. The car is nice (excluding the front grill and the over nannying systems), fast and really comfortable on a long drive. It's a shame the infrastucture isn't cut out to show the car at its best which is mile munching. So the car is good, but using it should be as easy as filling up at a petrol station. Maybe I'm getting it wrong but technology should make things easier not more complex.

[cerb4.5lee]

740EVTORQUES said:

KingGary said:

CheesecakeRunner said:

740EVTORQUES said:

and in simplistic terms the wasted energy ends up largely as heat.

If you want to look for inefficiency, look for heat.

And soulnoise.

Does anyone, beyond some of the people on this thread care about how silent their car is or how little heat it generates? It reminds me of those people who measure how thick their paintwork is just so they can share it with people who couldn’t care less.

The noise is insignificant by comparison, just look at how much noise a 150w speaker can put out.

But no, I’m not interested in how hot or noisy my car is per se.

What people care about is efficiency, why wouldn’t you you be interested in this?

Obviously I have a general bias towards ICE, however I don't really give a rats ass about efficiency this, brake regen that, and "efficiency" seems to be a word that fans of electric always seem to bang on about for some reason.

Efficiency isn't exactly exciting is it? The diesel SUV we have is efficient for a diesel, but I wouldn't be rushing to throw it around a racetrack for example.

[stumpage]

CheesecakeRunner said:

stumpage said:

NEC tomorrow. Booked a spot in the EV charging car park. Looks like I'm going to have to leave what I'm doing half way throught to go out and unplug when charging complete and move it and go back to the NEC again.

The car park with the BP Pulse slow chargers on each parking bay? They're destination chargers, just leave it plugged in until you leave.

It's only the rapids there that you need to unplug when done.

Yep, seems I've messed that up! Prebooked the spot now. Lesson learnt.

[GT9]

KingGary said:

Does anyone, beyond some of the people on this thread care about how silent their car is or how little heat it generates? It reminds me of those people who measure how thick their paintwork is just so they can share it with people who couldn’t care less.

A significant majority of an ICE car’s carbon footprint is due entirely to waste heat in either the production and burning of fuel.

The relationship between carbon footprint and cost of ownership is become more interdependent with time.

If more and more people started to make this connection between waste heat and cost, environmental and monetary, then I think we would see less resistance to the idea of electrification.

[Nomme de Plum]

cerb4.5lee said:

Obviously I have a general bias towards ICE, however I don't really give a rats ass about efficiency this, brake regen that, and "efficiency" seems to be a word that fans of electric always seem to bang on about for some reason.

Efficiency isn't exactly exciting is it? The diesel SUV we have is efficient for a diesel, but I wouldn't be rushing to throw it around a racetrack for example.

The cars the vast majority of people drive on our roads are a tool and not designed to be chucked around a track

It is a very odd attitude where a person chooses a less efficient product for a particular job. That includes cars for the track. It wouldn't really work for motorsport would it?

[Nomme de Plum]

stumpage said:

Nomme de Plum said:

App wise, what exactly is the issue? Signing up, prepaying, already have two different apps, not sure how many I'll end up with

An hour sounds a very long time charging how many kW is that per charge? To be fair the 1st time it was me setting the app up etc and then messing up the start charge via the app, the second waiting to get on a charger then it was slow.

So when you are on stand. Do you say there all day with no breaks. Why not co-ordinate with lunch or similar break? Not on a stand have a list of meetings set for the day. A bit of a pain having to leave, un plug and then move.

Why did you choose the BMW i4 M50 it doesn't appear to have a great real world range? I choose a car because I like it and out of all the EVs it was the only that felt half decent and within budget. I've never given range a thought in the past as I could just fill up. My error as I went for an EV due to BIK savings thinking that by now the charging wouldn't be much of an issue. I know Tesla etc etc but that is one horrid car in my opinion and not an interior I would want to spend any time in

Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 17th April 13:41

This issue is I think I made a BIG mistake going EV. The car is nice (excluding the front grill and the over nannying systems), fast and really comfortable on a long drive. It's a shame the infrastucture isn't cut out to show the car at its best which is mile munching. So the car is good, but using it should be as easy as filling up at a petrol station. Maybe I'm getting it wrong but technology should make things easier not more complex.

Thank you for your reply and honesty.

I made a point of ensuring I lived in a place where i could commute by train and even when visiting my other offices it was always by train or plane. IMO Driving is a waste of productive time.

Should I have needed a car for work it would have ben chosen solely on best fit for the job.

I don't think planning ahead should be an alien concept for anything we do in life. Being a lazy sod I find it generally makes life much easier.

[AlfaManc]

cerb4.5lee said:

I haven't lived with an EV granted, but what I'm seeing when I read between the lines, is that EVs are great for nipping about/short journeys. But for doing long journeys/high miles, ICE is still head and shoulders above an EV. However I guess that as time goes on, EVs will get better at doing the distance stuff though(with better batteries/better infrastructure etc).

I don't have an EV either but what I get from this thread is that EVs are perfectly good for long journeys. In the same way you generally wouldn't run your ICE tank down to zero, EVs need you to be aware of what range you have left.
Also, how many people regularly drive 200+ miles regularly? A big fuss is made of the need to top up but how much does this actually apply to most people? I guess a range of 150 miles would adequately cover the school run and grocery shop for the week. The problem of range is a niche one. I see chargers popping up everywhere so I guess it will disappear over time.

[Evanivitch]

cerb4.5lee said:

I guess it will differ for everyone. In our case the diesel does around 30k miles a year, whereas the petrol only does around 9k miles a year. So I guess that the petrol could be swapped for electric in fairness.

I personally wouldn't entertain 30k miles a year in electric, not yet anyway.

All depends on what those electric miles are. 150 miles a day isn't big deal in many cars.

[Ken_Code]

740EVTORQUES said:

The noise is insignificant by comparison, just look at how much noise a 150w speaker can put out.

But no, I’m not interested in how hot or noisy my car is per se.

What people care about is efficiency, why wouldn’t you you be interested in this?

Because what I love is the thrill of driving. I place enjoyment right at the top of the list of what I want from a car, and put efficiency nowhere.

If we were discussing a new fridge then I’d agree with you, but the idea of coming onto a site for driving enthusiasts to lecture people about efficiency is just weird.