Drivetrain pros/cons and future trends?
Discussion
Olivera said:
740EVTORQUES said:
In the EV6 you can choose between front wheel drive or four wheel drive with a rear bias.
You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
Given the vast size and weight of EVs like the EV6, it's highly, highly unlikely that drivers will be getting it significantly sideways (drifting) on the public road. It's simply too big and too heavy to get out of shape on our small UK roads, otherwise it ain't coming back and will end in tears.You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
Our Model 3 Performance offered similar configurability, and on that car it was specifically stated that it was not to be used on the public road.
SWoll said:
Olivera said:
740EVTORQUES said:
In the EV6 you can choose between front wheel drive or four wheel drive with a rear bias.
You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
Given the vast size and weight of EVs like the EV6, it's highly, highly unlikely that drivers will be getting it significantly sideways (drifting) on the public road. It's simply too big and too heavy to get out of shape on our small UK roads, otherwise it ain't coming back and will end in tears.You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
Our Model 3 Performance offered similar configurability, and on that car it was specifically stated that it was not to be used on the public road.
However, the kind of fun you can have on road, powering out of corners you absolutely can get as well if not better in an EV.
On track neither an EV6 or an M5 are much use by comparison to a proper lightweight car.
Olivera said:
Given the vast size and weight of EVs like the EV6, it's highly, highly unlikely that drivers will be getting it significantly sideways (drifting) on the public road. It's simply too big and too heavy to get out of shape on our small UK roads, otherwise it ain't coming back and will end in tears.
In fairness it certainly appears an EV6 would end on tears in a wide open track as well 
CG2020UK said:
In fairness it certainly appears an EV6 would end on tears in a wide open track as well
Actually to be totally honest, most trackdays end that way one way eventually if you’re trying hard enough 
To quote Kimi after he nearly totalled a Ferrari experience car showing off to a customer ‘don’t worry, they have more cars!’
SWoll said:
Indeed. The last thing i want is 'playful' when 4 up on a cold and wet UK morning navigating traffic thanks. Give me plenty of grip and shove so that I can safely join fast moving roads or overtake farm machinery on country lanes and I'm fine with that.
If I want playful I'll look for something lighter and more suited to the job, not a 2+ ton 5m long saloon or SUV.
I tend to agree.If I want playful I'll look for something lighter and more suited to the job, not a 2+ ton 5m long saloon or SUV.
Which also applies to the ICE equivs some are going dewy eyed over. A touch of oppo on an M5 or RS6, or running a 30min stint round Snetterton in the same.... Purlease.
Olivera said:
dvs_dave said:
I suspect it’ll settle on cheap EV’s being single motor RWD as it’s cheaper to engineer and package a drive axle that doesn’t have to also steer, deal with emergency braking forces, or have to work with crumple zones and crash structures. Only reason we see cheap FWD EV’s at the moment is because to save overall development cost they’re based on existing FWD ICE platforms.
Um:Forethcoming all new MINI EV, basis for the next decade or more of the 3 and 5 door hatch line - FWD
Forethcoming all new Renault 5 (& Alpine A290) EV - FWD
All new Fiat 500 EV - FWD
For the mini? At first I thought it was a similar reason but the EV Cooper is a different platform (J01) to the parallel ICE version (F66, which is itself going to be a heavily done over F56). So why the EV has maintained FWD I don't quite know. Perhaps its merely a historical thing? The Mini always being known as a darty front driver. Maybe they wanted to preserve that character.
Maybe on really small cars like these, RWD just doesn't work if you are also going to stick to a more traditional looking body (i.e no real room in the rear to do it and fit usable seats, usable boot space, spare wheel etc.)
Murph7355 said:
Which also applies to the ICE equivs some are going dewy eyed over. A touch of oppo on an M5 or RS6, or running a 30min stint round Snetterton in the same.... Purlease.
Did you see the Collecting Cars vid a few weeks ago where Harris was drifting an M3 estate around Llandow (a small track) with ease? Maybe possible in a high powered EV, but the colossal weight just makes it worse. Again an M6 or RS6 around the Nordschleife? Can be done easily, whereas Misha Charoudin has found that every EV tested (including a Model S Plaid) drops into a lower power mode within 1 lap. 
EVs - just worse at doing the fun stuff
Olivera said:
Murph7355 said:
Which also applies to the ICE equivs some are going dewy eyed over. A touch of oppo on an M5 or RS6, or running a 30min stint round Snetterton in the same.... Purlease.
Did you see the Collecting Cars vid a few weeks ago where Harris was drifting an M3 estate around Llandow (a small track) with ease? Maybe possible in a high powered EV, but the colossal weight just makes it worse. Again an M6 or RS6 around the Nordschleife? Can be done easily, whereas Misha Charoudin has found that every EV tested (including a Model S Plaid) drops into a lower power mode within 1 lap. EVs - just worse at doing the fun stuff
Not as good at doing circuits because... It's a new technology and that would be a dumb thing to focus on. Hardly anyone that buys a car would take it near a circuit, it's pretty much an irrelevant measure of performance.
Olivera said:
Did you see the Collecting Cars vid a few weeks ago where Harris was drifting an M3 estate around Llandow (a small track) with ease? Maybe possible in a high powered EV, but the colossal weight just makes it worse.
EVs - just worse at doing the fun stuff
Pretty much entirely irrelevant though?EVs - just worse at doing the fun stuff
Great for Harris when he's got the track booked for himself to film YT content, but good luck driving anything like that on a public track day and not getting pulled within a lap?
And the Model 3 Performance with 500+ HP weighs the same as that M4 Touring BTW.
Edited by SWoll on Monday 29th April 16:18
Olivera said:
Murph7355 said:
Which also applies to the ICE equivs some are going dewy eyed over. A touch of oppo on an M5 or RS6, or running a 30min stint round Snetterton in the same.... Purlease.
Did you see the Collecting Cars vid a few weeks ago where Harris was drifting an M3 estate around Llandow (a small track) with ease? Maybe possible in a high powered EV, but the colossal weight just makes it worse. Again an M6 or RS6 around the Nordschleife? Can be done easily, whereas Misha Charoudin has found that every EV tested (including a Model S Plaid) drops into a lower power mode within 1 lap. EVs - just worse at doing the fun stuff
But Swoll is spot on.
Also, Harris doesn't have to pay for the tyres or the wear on the drive train.
The amount of people having that sort of "fun" in an M3 will be miniscule to zero.
I once slept in my Caterham with a girl. It's not something I would ever suggest was it's forte or recommend to others
PS did you see Sutcliffe testing a Taycan GTS ST? Seemed quite happy
Pica-Pica said:
Good post. However, the need for mass EV sales will mean the lowest cost solution will dominate. Above that, there will, of course, be optimal layouts, at a cost.
^ThisA normal car doesn’t have to be boring, but the volume sellers will be focused on cost. Thankfully I think the average buyer is a little more aware of what to expect these days, compared to say 10 or 20 years ago. Some of the crap that the industry threw at consumers wasn’t good and it’s funny to see these “modern classics” today.
I am optimistic that we will have something that is reasonable though. Tesla cars aren’t bad to drive and even the ID4 has a good ride and handling package. Once EV’s move down market, I guess we will have to see though.
SWoll said:
rodericb said:
BYD Atto.
The VW ID.4 is front wheel drive, but it's based on the MEB platform. But then again the Cupra Born, which is rear-motor and rear wheel drive, is also on the MEB platform.....
The ID.4 is RWD in base spec, as with the ID.3.The VW ID.4 is front wheel drive, but it's based on the MEB platform. But then again the Cupra Born, which is rear-motor and rear wheel drive, is also on the MEB platform.....
BYD Atto, who knows its true origins but as its so cheap it wouldn’t surprise me if many of its core components (crash structures, suspension, etc) are carryovers from a FWD ICE platform to save development costs, thus dictating a similar layout.
New MINI Electric like the Atto seems to be based on some sort of low cost Chinese EV platform, so again, who knows the provenance and inspiration for what’s underneath.
Edited by dvs_dave on Tuesday 30th April 07:34
For those bemoaning the lack of track able EVs, Hyundai have released a track only version of the Ionic 5 N, the cup car. It’s 250kg lighter, under £100k and there’s a one make series coming.
They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
740EVTORQUES said:
For those bemoaning the lack of track able EVs, Hyundai have released a track only version of the Ionic 5 N, the cup car. It’s 250kg lighter, under £100k and there’s a one make series coming.
They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
Won’t it just be rubbish but because in your words They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
740EVTORQUES said:
(Regarding taking an M5 on track, it’s like an oil tanker compared to a proper track car, I can’t think why you would bother? You’ll just power down the straights and then annoy everyone having to tiptoe round the corners holding up all the lightweight cars.)
Especially as Hyundai themselves states it 1970kg which makes it heavier than an M5 
Edited by CG2020UK on Tuesday 30th April 23:49
CG2020UK said:
740EVTORQUES said:
For those bemoaning the lack of track able EVs, Hyundai have released a track only version of the Ionic 5 N, the cup car. It’s 250kg lighter, under £100k and there’s a one make series coming.
They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
Won’t it just be rubbish but because in your words They’ve ditched the fake gears etc because race cars don’t need whimsy but it does have ‘push to pass’
https://youtu.be/00TnpQu5-Ac?si=ur5W8Qe8XMdyNU8d
740EVTORQUES said:
(Regarding taking an M5 on track, it’s like an oil tanker compared to a proper track car, I can’t think why you would bother? You’ll just power down the straights and then annoy everyone having to tiptoe round the corners holding up all the lightweight cars.)
Especially as Hyundai themselves states it 1970kg which makes it heavier than an M5 Edited by CG2020UK on Tuesday 30th April 23:49
TheDeuce said:
Nope... Perfectly good at doing the fun stuff and faster a to b too.
Nope, whatever the quoted max range of your EV, my old 1.6 diesel pile of crud will be quicker over that distance. Before you disagree what is the range of your EV travelling at 80 to 100mph ? To be fair you will be doing it in a nice car and i won't.I regard myself as an average driving enthusiast in terms of ability and the most fun cars i have driven were a MK1 Mr2 and an RX8 yet could drive both sideways everywhere, especially good given i live in a new town with more roundabouts than most large Cities. The RX8 was a bit snappier on the oversteer but still easily controllable and even better as a passenger with a mate that can actually drive.
Neither was particularly heavy and despite the competence of big heavy modern day cars (both ICE and EV) i don't think they are as capable of a fun drive as the lighter stuff, but that's me and i appreciate we are all different. After years of sports bikes cars that have quick 0-100 times, even if a bit quicker than the bikes don't really do much for me.
There has been lots of good info from informed people on these EV threads that has got me coming around to the idea that my motoring future is not all doom and gloom. Given fun to me these days is picking a line down a nice a or b road or trying to get really technical sections of road spot on at a speed that is near my capability (not the cars) the actual propulsion method isn't really going to be a major issue once the range gets a bit better and they get a bit cheaper which should happen in the not too distant future.
I actually tried to get my wife to chop her car in for an EV but the thought of not having a gear stick or clutch is really putting her off. Given she drives like miss Daisy i can only assume it's the loss of familiarity that has her worried.
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