Aston Martin out of Hypercar
Discussion
ArnageWRC said:
To be honest, it often seems that Sportscar racing is a muddle; LMP, DPi, GTE Pro/ Am, GT3/D/4, etc
Do we really & honestly need all these categories? If you were starting now, and wanting to run an attractive sport, you'd want 1 Prototype car, that can run in the World Championship; you'd possibly allow it in the IMSA series (or maybe detune it/ customer version??) then you'd have a GT car which can run in pretty much every series and races; why would you have the same car with two sets of 'regs' in GTE & GT3? Which limits who enters the world series. Think of all the different cars racing globally - yet only a few actually race in GTE....absolute madness.
The ACO never seem to learn, and go down a blind alley with regs, which attract a few manufacturers - which lasts a few years, then they decide to pull out. Rinse and repeat. Will we ever see 4, 5 plus manufacturers in the top class racing in the WEC? Just have one set of car regs, and get on with it; having two just means more BoP/ Handicapping jiggery pokery....which really has no place in a world series. If someone builds a better car, then tough.
Le Mans seems to be a success in spite of, not because of the ACO, who've proven time and again they're useless in organising anything.
The WEC could/should be far bigger, better than it is - and now they're running this ridiculous 'winter' season. Bizarre.
Do we really & honestly need all these categories? If you were starting now, and wanting to run an attractive sport, you'd want 1 Prototype car, that can run in the World Championship; you'd possibly allow it in the IMSA series (or maybe detune it/ customer version??) then you'd have a GT car which can run in pretty much every series and races; why would you have the same car with two sets of 'regs' in GTE & GT3? Which limits who enters the world series. Think of all the different cars racing globally - yet only a few actually race in GTE....absolute madness.
The ACO never seem to learn, and go down a blind alley with regs, which attract a few manufacturers - which lasts a few years, then they decide to pull out. Rinse and repeat. Will we ever see 4, 5 plus manufacturers in the top class racing in the WEC? Just have one set of car regs, and get on with it; having two just means more BoP/ Handicapping jiggery pokery....which really has no place in a world series. If someone builds a better car, then tough.
Le Mans seems to be a success in spite of, not because of the ACO, who've proven time and again they're useless in organising anything.
The WEC could/should be far bigger, better than it is - and now they're running this ridiculous 'winter' season. Bizarre.
24lemons said:
I largely agree with the above. Regarding the numerous sports car classes out there, just try to explain to somebody that knows nothing about sports car racing, the difference between IMSA, ACO, SRO etc and see how long it takes them to glaze over. The whole sport is pulling in different directions and while convergence is a step in the right direction, there is still too much stubbornness out there which is counter productive for all.
100%. I think at the last count there were 20+ series racing worldwide - all with slightly different regs. WEC should be the 'premiership league' of these... but looks lost, aimless and mismanaged. As for the 'winter season', I'm sure they did that just to have Le Mans as the final race. Stupid idea.What has to be remembered in all of this, no matter what smiles are forced at press conferences where grudging use of the word 'convergence' is used, is that IMSA and the ACO just don't really get on. It would be easy to lay blame on either side of the argument(s), but basically they both need locking in a room, their hands smacked and told to play nicely together.
For me (before the awkward forced platitudes of convergence were uttered):
• LMP1/Hypercar is dead and has been for years, bin it.
• LMP2 is good, cookie cutter racing. It's a spec series and if you'd bought a Ligier, you were on a hiding to nothing.
• GTE Pro & Am. Glorious. Utterly glorious, but the Am cars need a slap for their driver line ups at times with 'factory Silvers'.
• GT3 is successful and nice, a good way for the Gentleman drivers to finance younger up and comers.
• LMP3: See GT3. Great cars, close racing, a good career step.
For me, the ACO should have gone GTE Plus (and of course IMSA GTLM Plus). Create parity of lap speed with the LMP2 entries, one would be faster on the straight, one would be faster through the corners, the overall win attainable to both types of car. The manufacturers were already there, it would have possibly kept two of them from leaving and may have got one more (Corvette) to come back in full time plus who knows who else.
The ACO have some good products, but they are products they do not promote to their best potential (IMHO). Racing in ELMS and certainly last season in Michelin Le Mans Cup has been great, but it isn't promoted well enough, especially MLMC. In fact one prominent team owner has openly said that he considers ELMS to be the premier endurance sportscar series. That's damming.
Attendance at Le Mans is falling (no matter what the officially released figures may suggest). Continuing to promote an isolated, unattractive top class is doing nobody any favours.
For me (before the awkward forced platitudes of convergence were uttered):
• LMP1/Hypercar is dead and has been for years, bin it.
• LMP2 is good, cookie cutter racing. It's a spec series and if you'd bought a Ligier, you were on a hiding to nothing.
• GTE Pro & Am. Glorious. Utterly glorious, but the Am cars need a slap for their driver line ups at times with 'factory Silvers'.
• GT3 is successful and nice, a good way for the Gentleman drivers to finance younger up and comers.
• LMP3: See GT3. Great cars, close racing, a good career step.
For me, the ACO should have gone GTE Plus (and of course IMSA GTLM Plus). Create parity of lap speed with the LMP2 entries, one would be faster on the straight, one would be faster through the corners, the overall win attainable to both types of car. The manufacturers were already there, it would have possibly kept two of them from leaving and may have got one more (Corvette) to come back in full time plus who knows who else.
The ACO have some good products, but they are products they do not promote to their best potential (IMHO). Racing in ELMS and certainly last season in Michelin Le Mans Cup has been great, but it isn't promoted well enough, especially MLMC. In fact one prominent team owner has openly said that he considers ELMS to be the premier endurance sportscar series. That's damming.
Attendance at Le Mans is falling (no matter what the officially released figures may suggest). Continuing to promote an isolated, unattractive top class is doing nobody any favours.
Red Firecracker said:
What has to be remembered in all of this, no matter what smiles are forced at press conferences where grudging use of the word 'convergence' is used, is that IMSA and the ACO just don't really get on. It would be easy to lay blame on either side of the argument(s), but basically they both need locking in a room, their hands smacked and told to play nicely together.
For me (before the awkward forced platitudes of convergence were uttered):
• LMP1/Hypercar is dead and has been for years, bin it.
• LMP2 is good, cookie cutter racing. It's a spec series and if you'd bought a Ligier, you were on a hiding to nothing.
• GTE Pro & Am. Glorious. Utterly glorious, but the Am cars need a slap for their driver line ups at times with 'factory Silvers'.
• GT3 is successful and nice, a good way for the Gentleman drivers to finance younger up and comers.
• LMP3: See GT3. Great cars, close racing, a good career step.
For me, the ACO should have gone GTE Plus (and of course IMSA GTLM Plus). Create parity of lap speed with the LMP2 entries, one would be faster on the straight, one would be faster through the corners, the overall win attainable to both types of car. The manufacturers were already there, it would have possibly kept two of them from leaving and may have got one more (Corvette) to come back in full time plus who knows who else.
The ACO have some good products, but they are products they do not promote to their best potential (IMHO). Racing in ELMS and certainly last season in Michelin Le Mans Cup has been great, but it isn't promoted well enough, especially MLMC. In fact one prominent team owner has openly said that he considers ELMS to be the premier endurance sportscar series. That's damming.
Attendance at Le Mans is falling (no matter what the officially released figures may suggest). Continuing to promote an isolated, unattractive top class is doing nobody any favours.
I'd agree with that team owner 100%.For me (before the awkward forced platitudes of convergence were uttered):
• LMP1/Hypercar is dead and has been for years, bin it.
• LMP2 is good, cookie cutter racing. It's a spec series and if you'd bought a Ligier, you were on a hiding to nothing.
• GTE Pro & Am. Glorious. Utterly glorious, but the Am cars need a slap for their driver line ups at times with 'factory Silvers'.
• GT3 is successful and nice, a good way for the Gentleman drivers to finance younger up and comers.
• LMP3: See GT3. Great cars, close racing, a good career step.
For me, the ACO should have gone GTE Plus (and of course IMSA GTLM Plus). Create parity of lap speed with the LMP2 entries, one would be faster on the straight, one would be faster through the corners, the overall win attainable to both types of car. The manufacturers were already there, it would have possibly kept two of them from leaving and may have got one more (Corvette) to come back in full time plus who knows who else.
The ACO have some good products, but they are products they do not promote to their best potential (IMHO). Racing in ELMS and certainly last season in Michelin Le Mans Cup has been great, but it isn't promoted well enough, especially MLMC. In fact one prominent team owner has openly said that he considers ELMS to be the premier endurance sportscar series. That's damming.
Attendance at Le Mans is falling (no matter what the officially released figures may suggest). Continuing to promote an isolated, unattractive top class is doing nobody any favours.
WEC is actually a joke. To watch one team dominate, and I don't care about BoP, Toyota are miles and miles ahead of the 'competition' because of the massive backing they have in technology and finance over Rebellion and Ginetta (LNT). It's a false 'level playing field because of fuel tank size, power, weight. Just keep fiddling until the Toyota is so restricted it can barely keep up with the Rebellion and Ginetta cars. That's not racing.
For me, Silverstone last year was a bit of a joke. Ginetta sounded wonderful, Toyota dominated and Rebellion...did their thing. The best race was the ELMS not the WEC. Obviously the GTE cars were great to watch, but Ferrari, Porsche and AML are not the glory days of Panoz, Morgan, Spyker, TVR,etc. And not many years ago there was a very real possibility of an LMP2 car winning Le Mans outright. Now Le Mans is actually rapidly becoming a parody of itself.
LawrieC said:
Tyre Smoke said:
….and I don't care about BoP, Toyota are miles and miles ahead of the 'competition' because of the massive backing they have in technology and finance over Rebellion and Ginetta (LNT)….
Sorry, but Toyota are miles ahead because BoP is in their favourRed Firecracker said:
What has to be remembered in all of this, no matter what smiles are forced at press conferences where grudging use of the word 'convergence' is used, is that IMSA and the ACO just don't really get on. It would be easy to lay blame on either side of the argument(s), but basically they both need locking in a room, their hands smacked and told to play nicely together.
For me (before the awkward forced platitudes of convergence were uttered):
• LMP1/Hypercar is dead and has been for years, bin it.
• LMP2 is good, cookie cutter racing. It's a spec series and if you'd bought a Ligier, you were on a hiding to nothing.
• GTE Pro & Am. Glorious. Utterly glorious, but the Am cars need a slap for their driver line ups at times with 'factory Silvers'.
• GT3 is successful and nice, a good way for the Gentleman drivers to finance younger up and comers.
• LMP3: See GT3. Great cars, close racing, a good career step.
For me, the ACO should have gone GTE Plus (and of course IMSA GTLM Plus). Create parity of lap speed with the LMP2 entries, one would be faster on the straight, one would be faster through the corners, the overall win attainable to both types of car. The manufacturers were already there, it would have possibly kept two of them from leaving and may have got one more (Corvette) to come back in full time plus who knows who else.
The ACO have some good products, but they are products they do not promote to their best potential (IMHO). Racing in ELMS and certainly last season in Michelin Le Mans Cup has been great, but it isn't promoted well enough, especially MLMC. In fact one prominent team owner has openly said that he considers ELMS to be the premier endurance sportscar series. That's damming.
Attendance at Le Mans is falling (no matter what the officially released figures may suggest). Continuing to promote an isolated, unattractive top class is doing nobody any favours.
Lots of knowledge and sense in that post. Cracking website, Red Firecracker, by the way. For me (before the awkward forced platitudes of convergence were uttered):
• LMP1/Hypercar is dead and has been for years, bin it.
• LMP2 is good, cookie cutter racing. It's a spec series and if you'd bought a Ligier, you were on a hiding to nothing.
• GTE Pro & Am. Glorious. Utterly glorious, but the Am cars need a slap for their driver line ups at times with 'factory Silvers'.
• GT3 is successful and nice, a good way for the Gentleman drivers to finance younger up and comers.
• LMP3: See GT3. Great cars, close racing, a good career step.
For me, the ACO should have gone GTE Plus (and of course IMSA GTLM Plus). Create parity of lap speed with the LMP2 entries, one would be faster on the straight, one would be faster through the corners, the overall win attainable to both types of car. The manufacturers were already there, it would have possibly kept two of them from leaving and may have got one more (Corvette) to come back in full time plus who knows who else.
The ACO have some good products, but they are products they do not promote to their best potential (IMHO). Racing in ELMS and certainly last season in Michelin Le Mans Cup has been great, but it isn't promoted well enough, especially MLMC. In fact one prominent team owner has openly said that he considers ELMS to be the premier endurance sportscar series. That's damming.
Attendance at Le Mans is falling (no matter what the officially released figures may suggest). Continuing to promote an isolated, unattractive top class is doing nobody any favours.
LawrieC said:
Tyre Smoke said:
….and I don't care about BoP, Toyota are miles and miles ahead of the 'competition' because of the massive backing they have in technology and finance over Rebellion and Ginetta (LNT)….
Sorry, but Toyota are miles ahead because BoP is in their favour
Mott1 said:
Completely agree with those saying there should be 2 categories (LMP2/DPI and a GT one), not 4.
Also just heard there's only 6 LMP1 cars for Le Mans because the ByKolles is only 2nd on the reserve list!? I mean I know it makes the little WRs of yore look reliable, but for God's sake!
That's correct. 2 Toyotas, 2 Rebellion, 2 Ginetta.Also just heard there's only 6 LMP1 cars for Le Mans because the ByKolles is only 2nd on the reserve list!? I mean I know it makes the little WRs of yore look reliable, but for God's sake!
Of the ones that finish, it'll be in that order.
Tyre Smoke said:
What website?
On RF's profile - well worth a look. FredericRobinson said:
I want more variety, not less, as it is there's far too many Oreca P2s and Ferrari GTEs
I'd agree, and it's why I'm concerned that LMP2 will become the top class, with a dozen or more Porsche 911 RSR's making up the GT fields behind. Only my view, of course.As Tyre Smoke said (sorry to cut the quote)...
Tyre Smoke said:
Obviously the GTE cars were great to watch, but Ferrari, Porsche and AML are not the glory days of Panoz, Morgan, Spyker, TVR,etc.
Edited by MikeT66 on Saturday 29th February 06:43
FredericRobinson said:
Bykolles are lucky to be as high as 2nd on the reserve list really, there's more deserving teams below them
I honestly think they've been hard done by. ByKolles have spent an awful lot of other peoples money supporting LMP1 in WEC, only missing (from memory) that last half of the 2017 season to concentrate on the engine manufacturer swap. They've received an awful lot of scorn in the past but they have been incredibly loyal in an era of high Euro factory LMP1 budgets.It should also be remembered that had the new Nissan engine they fitted on the morning of the 2017 Le Mans 24 Hours been sound and not had the same issue, straight out of the crate, that the failed engine had, they could have feasibly won, the car was that fast and the race was so unexpected.
They are also only one of three entities still forging ahead with a Hypercar. It could be argued that they deserve a little bit more of a favourable hearing than say Ginetta, whose first season with Manor was derisible and who have now missed two races (so far) this season. Whether Team LNT should be considered a factory entry and the implications that entails is another thing.
It would be interesting to see the potential of the ByKolles with the current (nonsense) LMP1 regs.
I also think that Duncan Cameron could maybe feel hard done by, another long term supporter of ACO racing, but I suspect is feeling the wrath of the ACO for giving his entry up last year which allowed the Duqueine first reserve to race. I do however expect/hope both Duncan in his Ferrari and the ByKolles to be in the race though.
It is also worth remembering that nowadays the races, especially LM, are often going right down to the last hour, sometimes even the last lap. It wasn't that long ago that the finishing order had multiple, sometimes 10's of laps between finishers, but as with most things the sands of time tend to blur that and only the iconic images of 917s, 956s, 962s, etc etc remain. Looking at the Invitation List for this year, there aren't any bad teams. There aren't any joke entries (well, saying that...). That is a 65 car grid that is going to entertain and offer close racing in three of the four classes.
Edited by Red Firecracker on Saturday 29th February 08:03
Red firecracker, that is a great website. Also following you on Instagram and Twitter.
Meanwhile, having been to Le Mans for the last 16 years, the excitement isn't the same when the top class has just three different entries with two cars each.
Bykolles should be there just for their cool paddock quad...
Meanwhile, having been to Le Mans for the last 16 years, the excitement isn't the same when the top class has just three different entries with two cars each.
Bykolles should be there just for their cool paddock quad...
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