Used 4 doors saloon, RWD, manual and affordable?

[white_goodman]

To be fair, I don't have a problem with the interior on the W210 E-Class and to be honest, I would prefer a late W210 to a similarly aged 5-Series but I would want an E320 petrol/E320CDI Avantgarde with auto and leather. If you can find a rust-free example, it's probably a better car than an early W211. It surprised me but I did a quick search and you can still get manual E-Classes right up until the previous generation but normally "taxi" spec i.e. 4-pot diesels with cloth interiors.

If you're relaxing the rules slightly to encompass AWD, then I also really like the C5 Audi A6. It's a great looking car with a lovely interior and proper 4WD rather than an Haldex system. This one is not LHD obviously but they come from a time before Audi became the new BMW and from my observations seem to suffer less from rust issues than BMWs and Mercedes of that time.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

Possibly a little smaller but a Volvo S60R may also meet all your criteria with 4WD.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...

To be honest, I disagree with you on Jags being too conservatively styled. The S-Type is a bit of an acquired taste but the XJ is a thing of beauty compared to the conservative Germans and I think a few of them were manual.

If you relax your rules a little further, a FWD Alfa 166, Saab 9-5, Volvo S80 or even a mk4 Ford Mondeo (they're huge inside) would also be excellent choices.

Obviously, if your budget was higher, a Vauxhall VXR8 would be your perfect car but to be frank, I don't really see your average driver of a 15 year old Opel/Vauxhall Omega being any more savoury than a 5-Series driver, it's just that there are less of them around!

Edited by white_goodman on Monday 19th December 19:10

[Hugo a Gogo]

Shifter1 said:

OverSteery said:

Indeed Audi, Mercedes, Volvo were too dull to even consider. 5 series was the obvious, and so I tried it (540 then M5). I had 4 BMws over quite a few years, and I guess I kept coming back, because wanting manual, RWD, they aren't many other options.

Holden/HSV was less obvious choice and much more fun. 2 so far and Love them

What you are describing is basically the "curse" of pretty much every German car. If you want real thrills, as in riding a wild horse, a German car is not going to give you that. Especially a mass produced one such as BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi etc.

Because German philosophy is perfection and perfection kills character. They never achieve perfection in the full package as their design will never match the Italians. But mechanically they come pretty close to perfection and this makes their cars boring.

If you truly want thrills with a German car you have to try to buy a tuner car like a Brabus or something. Then maybe, depending on your demands. AMG today is not enough. Their cars are not as wild as when they were independent and made the bonkers AMG Hammer for example. BMW M is still boring and German. I mean, when even a 911 is boring compared to others of the same class you know the "problem" is a general one.

Driving a 911 compared to a Lotus, Corvette or Alfa Romeo is boring. Same with a R8. Some people like well behaved cars and then German cars are for them. If you say you like Holden better it tells me you like wild cars. German cars are not it.;)

a big 4 door saloon doesn't compare well to a Lotus either

except maybe the Lotus Omega/Carlton

[Jimmy Recard]

white_goodman said:

To be fair, I don't have a problem with the interior on the W210 E-Class and to be honest, I would prefer a late W210 to a similarly aged 5-Series but I would want an E320 petrol/E320CDI Avantgarde with auto and leather. If you can find a rust-free example, it's probably a better car than an early W211. It surprised me but I did a quick search and you can still get manual E-Classes right up until the previous generation but normally "taxi" spec i.e. 4-pot diesels with cloth interiors.

If you're relaxing the rules slightly to encompass AWD, then I also really like the C5 Audi A6. It's a great looking car with a lovely interior and proper 4WD rather than an Haldex system. This one is not LHD obviously but they come from a time before Audi became the new BMW and from my observations seem to suffer less from rust issues than BMWs and Mercedes of that time.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

Possibly a little smaller but a Volvo S60R may also meet all your criteria with 4WD.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...

To be honest, I disagree with you on Jags being too conservatively styled. The S-Type is a bit of an acquired taste but the XJ is a thing of beauty compared to the conservative Germans and I think a few of them were manual.

If you relax your rules a little further, a FWD Alfa 166, Saab 9-5, Volvo S80 or even a mk4 Ford Mondeo (they're huge inside) would also be excellent choices.

Obviously, if your budget was higher, a Vauxhall VXR8 would be your perfect car but to be frank, I don't really see your average driver of a 15 year old Opel/Vauxhall Omega being any more savoury than a 5-Series driver, it's just that there are less of them around!

Edited by white_goodman on Monday 19th December 19:10

There hasn't been a manual XJ since the X300 which was out of production by about 1997

God, this thread has got me looking for manual V6 Omegas now

[s m]

Jimmy Recard said:

There hasn't been a manual XJ since the X300 which was out of production by about 1997

God, this thread has got me looking for manual V6 Omegas now

I noticed there is a cheap 2.6 just down the road from me Jimmy

https://www.gumtree.com/p/vauxhall/2002-52-reg-vau...

[Jimmy Recard]

s m said:

I noticed there is a cheap 2.6 just down the road from me Jimmy

https://www.gumtree.com/p/vauxhall/2002-52-reg-vau...

Thanks for that. I'll have a look. A 3.0 or 3.2 MV6 would be ideal. I'm still having a think anyway.


This is turning into the Omega thread

ETA, I've just had a look at your link. That's a nice car for the money! Great shed

[s m]

Jimmy Recard said:

s m said:

I noticed there is a cheap 2.6 just down the road from me Jimmy

https://www.gumtree.com/p/vauxhall/2002-52-reg-vau...

Thanks for that. I'll have a look. A 3.0 or 3.2 MV6 would be ideal. I'm still having a think anyway.


This is turning into the Omega thread

ETA, I've just had a look at your link. That's a nice car for the money! Great shed

Have you checked to see if the manual 3.2 is still there?

http://carssoldquick.com/carsforsale/details.asp?i...

[s m]

Alternatively, if you fancy a longer drive Jimmy.....


https://www.donedeal.co.uk/cars-for-sale/omega-mv6...





.......and if you had doubled your budget you could have been in with a chance of this if you could bear the colour

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C694631

Edited by s m on Tuesday 20th December 14:55

[Shifter1]

shtu said:

Well, there you go then. Omega. Now go buy one and stop bothering us with this unicorn hunt.

The difficult part is to find a 3.0 manual one. If I did I wouldn't be here.

[Shifter1]

_Neal_ said:

Maybe not, but this thread is about basically the opposite of wild cars, isn't it? You're hunting for a 2-3k Euro family saloon, and the front/only runner is also, ironically, German.

My reply concerning German cars has nothing to do with my car search itself. I was just replying to OverSteery's post about Audi, Mercedes and BMWs being dull. It's an off topic matter.

Besides I never said that just because it needs to be a 4 door saloon it couldn't be a wild one.

[Shifter1]

Hugo a Gogo said:

a big 4 door saloon doesn't compare well to a Lotus either

except maybe the Lotus Omega/Carlton

Again, I was not comparing any 4 door saloon with a Lotus. I was comparing a Porsche 911.

And I don't need my 4 door saloon to compare well with a Lotus. I think you may have misread my reply to OverSteery.

[Shifter1]

white_goodman said:

To be fair, I don't have a problem with the interior on the W210 E-Class and to be honest, I would prefer a late W210 to a similarly aged 5-Series but I would want an E320 petrol/E320CDI Avantgarde with auto and leather. If you can find a rust-free example, it's probably a better car than an early W211. It surprised me but I did a quick search and you can still get manual E-Classes right up until the previous generation but normally "taxi" spec i.e. 4-pot diesels with cloth interiors.

In principle, I also much prefer any W210 over the equivalent 5 series. The huge challenge is finding a rust free W210 and then, even bigger challenge is keeping it rust free. This is the whole problem we have, even before starting to discuss it's nearly impossible to find them with the stronger engines and a manual gearbox. Diesels 4 pots there are plenty as you say.

white_goodman said:

If you're relaxing the rules slightly to encompass AWD, then I also really like the C5 Audi A6. It's a great looking car with a lovely interior and proper 4WD rather than an Haldex system. This one is not LHD obviously but they come from a time before Audi became the new BMW and from my observations seem to suffer less from rust issues than BMWs and Mercedes of that time.

I'm not really relaxing the rules just yet. I was just raising the hypothesis.
But like I said when I brought AWD up, I would have to exclude Audi and VW, because I already have a AWD VW. Don't need another one. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the C5 being from before Audi became the new BMW, but I hate Audis from that generation and older. They only started looking alright from C6 on IMO.

white_goodman said:

Possibly a little smaller but a Volvo S60R may also meet all your criteria with 4WD.

Too small, yeah.

white_goodman said:

To be honest, I disagree with you on Jags being too conservatively styled. The S-Type is a bit of an acquired taste but the XJ is a thing of beauty compared to the conservative Germans and I think a few of them were manual.

The S-type is just too odd and retro. But I think I mentioned the X300 is not that bad. But it's small as well and as hard to find with manual gearbox as with the Omega too.

And what German cars are conservatively styled? Unless you mean the newer Bentleys and Rolls Royces?

white_goodman said:

If you relax your rules a little further, a FWD Alfa 166, Saab 9-5, Volvo S80 or even a mk4 Ford Mondeo (they're huge inside) would also be excellent choices.

I'm not doing that, sorry. No FWD.

white_goodman said:

Obviously, if your budget was higher, a Vauxhall VXR8 would be your perfect car but to be frank, I don't really see your average driver of a 15 year old Opel/Vauxhall Omega being any more savoury than a 5-Series driver, it's just that there are less of them around!

I'm not sure about that. The Omega was never seen as cool or as a performance saloon. So their drivers don't have a lot of reason to behave like BMW drivers, if that is what you meant.

As for the VXR8, I don't know. It was never my cup of tea. Too hairy chested I guess. I don't know. They are also very cheaply finished inside. The Omega seems better finished if compared to the Commodores of the same vintage. Not to mention with a much better looking interior as well. The Holden interiors are just meh.

Edited by Shifter1 on Tuesday 20th December 23:21

[_Neal_]

Shifter1 said:

_Neal_ said:

Maybe not, but this thread is about basically the opposite of wild cars, isn't it? You're hunting for a 2-3k Euro family saloon, and the front/only runner is also, ironically, German.

My reply concerning German cars has nothing to do with my car search itself. I was just replying to OverSteery's post about Audi, Mercedes and BMWs being dull. It's an off topic matter.

Besides I never said that just because it needs to be a 4 door saloon it couldn't be a wild one.

Fair enough.

So which "wild" 4 door saloon fits your requirements and budget?

[s m]

_Neal_ said:

Shifter1 said:

_Neal_ said:

Maybe not, but this thread is about basically the opposite of wild cars, isn't it? You're hunting for a 2-3k Euro family saloon, and the front/only runner is also, ironically, German.

My reply concerning German cars has nothing to do with my car search itself. I was just replying to OverSteery's post about Audi, Mercedes and BMWs being dull. It's an off topic matter.

Besides I never said that just because it needs to be a 4 door saloon it couldn't be a wild one.

Fair enough.

So which "wild" 4 door saloon fits your requirements and budget?

It's a tough one ....

4000 Euro budget

Must be LHD
Must be Omega /5-series size
Must be 4-door
Must be manual
Can be wild but not hairy-chested like a VXR8
Needs to be about 200bhp upwards


No BMWs
Mercs are too problematic and rusty
Maseratis too expensive to run
Jags are too rare/old looking etc

I think only a LHD Omega MV6 ( we can only find RHD ones ) fits the bill so far ( or maybe a very cheap Holden GTS with a manual box and LHD )

[Jimmy Recard]

s m said:

Alternatively, if you fancy a longer drive Jimmy.....


https://www.donedeal.co.uk/cars-for-sale/omega-mv6...





.......and if you had doubled your budget you could have been in with a chance of this if you could bear the colour

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C694631

Edited by s m on Tuesday 20th December 14:55

I don't think I'm actually wanting to buy anything for a couple of months yet - when I buy a car I normally watch for a bit first to see a few sell and get an idea of price and availability. Then there's the nagging feeling that if I wait, a good one will come up really cheap. I'm fairly flexible on manual vs auto so that makes it much easier to find a good one. That Berkshire one would be perfect though, if it's still there

That said, there's a 3.0 MV6 with a rusty arch and bootlid on eBay that I quite like, but it would have to stay cheap for me to be interested (no leather seats, gold and the rust count against it for me)

[s m]

Jimmy Recard said:

That said, there's a 3.0 MV6 with a rusty arch and bootlid on eBay that I quite like, but it would have to stay cheap for me to be interested (no leather seats, gold and the rust count against it for me)

I noticed that one too - irmscher bumper and in Sunderland - they seem to pop up here and there even now

[e21Mark]

As a self confessed BMW fanboi and asshat I would suggest a 5 series of whatever vintage. I like e34 touring myself but the e39 is an excellent car. You could always a) ignore the stereotypes and/or remove the badges? In truth, you're discounting an excellent car for no good reason.

[Shifter1]

e21Mark said:

As a self confessed BMW fanboi and asshat I would suggest a 5 series of whatever vintage. I like e34 touring myself but the e39 is an excellent car. You could always a) ignore the stereotypes and/or remove the badges? In truth, you're discounting an excellent car for no good reason.

To be honest, if I would absolutely be forced to get a BMW, the only 5 series I could picture buying is an e34. It's the best looking 5 series and the fat boats that have come after it don't hold a candle to it's classic design. As another advantage, there are basically no asshats around here driving an e34. Because at this point it's almost a classic and "normally" people who drive classic cars have some class. So that doesn't fit the asshats. Asshats normally get the newest "cool" car they can afford because they think newer is better and older sucks. I'm sure if you go more east there are a lot more e34s and other older BMWs of that vintage. But here most cars are new. Most common older BMW you see is e39. You barely see any e30 anymore either.

The problem with the e34 though is that being that old it lacks heavily on the safety features, which for a daily family car I absolutely need. It never got things like side airbags let alone traction control or stability control etc. I'm not even sure it ever had driver and passenger airbags.

[Shifter1]

_Neal_ said:

Fair enough.

So which "wild" 4 door saloon fits your requirements and budget?

I never said it must be a wild one. Just that I don't mid if it would be.


But to be honest, the more I look at the situation, the more I realize that it's not only me being picky. We are in a sad state of affairs for car enthusiasts.

Even if I had a sizeable budget to buy new, there really aren't many RWD manual 4 door saloon with bigger engines to choose from anymore. It's just sad.

[s m]

Shifter1 said:

e21Mark said:

As a self confessed BMW fanboi and asshat I would suggest a 5 series of whatever vintage. I like e34 touring myself but the e39 is an excellent car. You could always a) ignore the stereotypes and/or remove the badges? In truth, you're discounting an excellent car for no good reason.

To be honest, if I would absolutely be forced to get a BMW, the only 5 series I could picture buying is an e34. It's the best looking 5 series and the fat boats that have come after it don't hold a candle to it's classic design. As another advantage, there are basically no asshats around here driving an e34. Because at this point it's almost a classic and "normally" people who drive classic cars have some class. So that doesn't fit the asshats. Asshats normally get the newest "cool" car they can afford because they think newer is better and older sucks. I'm sure if you go more east there are a lot more e34s and other older BMWs of that vintage. But here most cars are new. Most common older BMW you see is e39. You barely see any e30 anymore either.

The problem with the e34 though is that being that old it lacks heavily on the safety features, which for a daily family car I absolutely need. It never got things like side airbags let alone traction control or stability control etc. I'm not even sure it ever had driver and passenger airbags.

Side airbags correct, later E34s could have ASC+T plus front airbags on both sides

Irrelevant though as too old/expensive

[Shifter1]

s m said:

Side airbags correct, later E34s could have ASC+T plus front airbags on both sides

Irrelevant though as too old/expensive

I guess it must be a very primitive version of it then?

And around here an e34 is not too expensive. It's actually right within the budget. I have even seen M5s for just a few hundred more, although that was probably ran to the ground.

As for being too old, the age limit is there exactly because of the safety features. I feel like MY 2000 was when most cars really started loading up on the safety features. But if the e39 has traction and stability plus front airbags on both sides, at least in theory it has all the safety features the Omega has besides side airbags.