B-road attacking coupe in reasonable budget?

[ZackM]

CDP said:

http://www.bmh-ltd.com/mgbshell.htm

Thanks. That's interesting.

[ZackM]

Mr Tidy said:

Interesting thread!

I bought my Z4 Coupe BECAUSE of how it looked! Plus it had a straight 6 petrol N/A engine, RWD and a manual gearbox.

It can attack a B-road, but will never be a B-road weapon like an Elise, VX220, etc. - but then they don't have a 6 cylinder engine mounted in the front!

I think the OP may need to review his priorities.

Not at all. What you say about the Elise and VX220 is exactly why I don't want a middle engine for this car. They are more like precise tools on the B roads. But the front engine RWD is more fun because they will be more frisky. This is what I was talking about when I said I wasn't looking for the middle engine experience. You put it well in words. I want to attack B roads but not necessarily a B road weapon. Otherwise, like I already said I would just buy an Elise and be done.

So my priorities are right indeed for the type of experience I'm looking for.

[ZackM]

SWTH said:

Exactly this. OP, your thread title asks specifically for a “B-ROAD ATTACKING COUPE”. Therefore, it might be considered that being good on a B-road was the highest priority. If you’d asked for “Best all round coupe for £10k” you might be getting different responses, maybe more in line with your expectations.

And by the way, treating everyone like they need everything explaining syllable by syllable because they’re not all just turning around and agreeing that the Z is the best option, when all everyone is doing is trying suggest different alternatives, is a surefire way of winding people up. Ease off a bit, you’ve clearly fixed on buying the Z. Go and test one, see what YOU think of it, then IF it meets your high expectations, buy one.

Why are people focusing so much on the title only? Are they not reading the actual opening post? Isn't that like judging a book by the cover?

In the OP I explain it well I thought. But maybe I should have indeed chosen a different title. I put B road attacking there to avoid people would suggest big 2 doors saloons etc.

Now this part of your post totally throws me off:

"And by the way, treating everyone like they need everything explaining syllable by syllable because they’re not all just turning around and agreeing that the Z is the best option, when all everyone is doing is trying suggest different alternatives, is a surefire way of winding people up. Ease off a bit,"

If trying to explain well I'm still being misunderstood, I can only imagine how it would be if I wasn't trying my best to make myself clear. So I don't understand your point. Sorry.

By the way, I have not yet fixed on buying the Z. It is just looking like the best option so far. It's either that or a rebodied Z4 Coupe with reworked steering, which seems like too much work and money to do.

[ZackM]

blueg33 said:

Given the extremely restrictive brief, you are right the 350z is probably the only car that meets it! Hope you like it when you drive it.

(ps forgot the Jag was auto only)

I think the biggest restriction is the price really, rather than specs. if money was no object a V8 Vantage would also check all boxes I would think. And there are probably a few others. Yes, I know the Vantage is no B-road weapon as an Elise. But I hope we are passed that now. If I wanted the ultimate B road car I would start with middle engine I think.

But I think the biggest limitation is price. I'm sure we could come up with more options if there was no price roof. Coupe, RWD, manual, 6 cly. and up, any price. But in the real world price is always a factor.

[ZackM]

SWTH said:

We aren’t misunderstanding you, we’re trying to offer alternatives that because of your requirements cannot be all of what you have listed, but may still be worthy of consideration.

As for judging books by their covers, a good cover should suggest what the book is about, and lead into the story. A bad cover can easily throw people off the scent.

Actually that would be the job of the preface.

A cover's job is to get you to look at the book.

Not very different than the job of an article title really.

I know you brought up that pointing out every little issue reads as condescending. But I felt I had to comment on this one as this is what I do for a living. I work in marketing and advertising.

I will definitely test the 350Z.

And I don't think The Fifth Gear crew is being corrupt and lying to please Nissan. I have seen several disfavorable reviews by Tiff.

For example, they compared the Z4 and 350Z and even though the 350Z won everything, in the end they said they would buy the Z4 themselves. Talk about badge bias.

[ZackM]

blueg33 said:

A car can win in every category in a test, but sometimes its the je ne sais quoi that gives something the edge.

Yes. Personal preference.

But it does show the 350z is more than o pair with a z4. The put forward notion a z4 is better or would blow a 350z out of the water is clearly not factual.

Edited by ZackM on Thursday 20th September 12:41

[ZackM]

Thanks for the replies RobM77 and coldel. And here I thought the thread was basically over and you two come in late and add so much to it.

About the Z4 vs 350Z, as expected neither is perfect. But based on what you said about the Z4 and 350Z RobM77, I must say I think I can more easily live with the 350Z faults than with the Z4's. Also because the 350Z is such a great platform to build. So I have the impression it will be way easier and cheaper to address the faults with the 350Z than with the Z4.

And coldel, thanks for the great tips for improving the 350Z. It's good to hear it can still be chuckable and fun even with the weight. Since you compliment the handling RobM77, I guess you are not entirely disagreeing with coldel. I have driven heavier GTs before which were still fun. I was never expecting Elise driving experience.

By the way, have any of you also driven the 370Z and can compare? On paper it doesn't look that much better if any. Not particularly more powerful or particularly much lighter. Neither it's particularly better looking. Would be interesting to read your thoughts if you have driven one. Here they cost almost double of a 350Z. Thanks again.

[ZackM]

coldel said:

Not much between an HR 350z and a 370z. Interior is improved, the car feels a bit newer and refined, but if you want something to chuck about on the weekend an HR (later 350z) is what you should go for and save the money. Unless of course you like the styling more of the 370z. Do check for oil gallery gaskets though on the HR upwards, common problem that will cost north of £800 to fix if it goes wrong.

This is the impression I had by looking at the specs and reviews.

As for the style I'm split really. I like the 350Z better from some angles and the 370Z from others. I definitely hate the headlights and taillights on the 370Z. They are my biggest problem with the 370Z styling. So since the lights would be difficult to change I can probably say I prefer the 350Z styling.

Thanks for the oil gallery gaskets tip.

[ZackM]

RobM77 said:

That's exactly it. Both are great cars, but with obvious flaws. For me, agility and control response are my top two things in a car, and I was never going to change the 350Z's clumsy throttle, leaden steering and big kerbweight. If you can forgive it of those things, there's not really anything else wrong.

Sure. Personal preference plays a big role.

I have yet to drive a 350Z. But I get the impression some of this so called laziness some are talking about could probably be remedied or at least made much better. Maybe by increasing bhp output and a suspension tune up? More bhp doesn't really make a car lighter but having more power will definitely make it more responsive. And I have the impression it may be underdamped, as many cars from the time were. That may make you feel the weight more? So a suspension tune up could make a goodf difference. Since the throttle problem can be addressed as coldel says, this could cure 99% of the problems with the 350Z ?

Like I said the 350Z seems to have more options for mods and addressing problems. Since there are more of them around, pretty much anything you may want to do somebody else has probably already done it and there is probably a guide.

I'm not sure how bad the leaden steering problem you mentioned in the 350Z is. But the Z4 steering, at least the one i drove was horrible. So I guess they are even there.

Edited by ZackM on Friday 21st September 13:02

[ZackM]

coldel said:

You can fix the throttle with a few mods i.e. Uprev mapping or similar which is circa £350 for an install. Steering is unfortunately what it is as it is a GT car. kerb weight can be addressed, a chap pulled all the sound deadening out of the boot on his car and around the rear arches and knocked something like 40kgs off. With a few mods you can get a pretty well set up car - obviously tyres and geo make all the difference so don't scrimp on those.

I was starting to wonder what could be done to cut weight. Removing the sound deadening is an interesting idea. 40Kg off is a good amount. Isn't that basically what the 370Z is lighter than the 350Z? But what effect did it have inside the cabin? Too loud? Removing the sound deadening from inside the cabin would most likely make it too loud. But I wonder what effect removing the sound deadening of the boot on his car and around the rear arches had.

On a side note, removing weight from the rear of a RWD car is not exactly where I would want to remove weight from. But maybe transferring the battery to the trunk could help off set some of that.

Does it come with electric seats? I wonder if ditching that, electric mirrors and a few other things would add to much weight savings. There are a few things that I don't really need. Electric seats and mirrors are some of them. You adjust it one time and then leave it.

Edited by ZackM on Friday 21st September 13:10

[ZackM]

underphil said:

reducing the weight by 3% isn't going to make a noticeable improvement to the performance, but will make it unbearable to live with day to day!

You'd be better of only ever half filling the tank and going to the petrol station more often

Lightweight wheels would probably be worthwhile though...

Makes sense.

But about your remark about making it unbearable to live with day to day. Is that in reference to the removal of trunk sound deadening from the boot or the electric mirrors and seats? If the later I wouldn't miss them at all. If the former, this is why I asked what impact it had in the cabin.

About the wheels, can you really shave off good weight there, apart from going carbon fiber wheels?

[ZackM]

RobM77 said:

Performance is fine as standard, and the suspension setup is already decent. I was referring to weight in terms of ride and handling, which is not something you can do anything about sadly. Nissan have done a very good job already.

Now you are confusing me a bit. In your other post you complimented the handling.

[ZackM]

300bhp/ton said:

What are “B roads” like in Southern Germany?

Is that 10-15k in Euros? Or £ sterling?

350z’s start at £4-5k in the U.K. And you are going to struggle to find a sub 10 year old rwd performance coupe for similar money as an alternative.

Plenty of choice if you alter your parameters though.

I like the look of the 370z. But personally have little interest in the 350z. There are simply more fun or better cars for the money. Even at the £4-6k mark in the U.K.

When new there wasn’t much in the U.K./Euro market pitched at the 350z price point, so they had a different appeal as a new vehicle. Although in places like the US they were marketed against things like V8 Mustang GT’s.

They aren’t bad cars though and if you stubbornly only want a tin top posing car with a bit of go. They probably represent very good vfm.

Well, if I remember correctly, B roads here are a bit better than in the UK. Quite fun to drive on them really.

I was talking Euros.

I think anywhere one would struggle to find a sub 10 year old rwd performance coupe for similar money as an alternative. But it's hard to alter the parameters much. I don't want FWD or even AWD. I don't want automatic and I don't want a hot-hatch or 2 door saloon.

By the way, you lost me here: "if you stubbornly only want a tin top posing car". What's a tin top posing car?

P.S. It's great to see the thread has a new life and useful discussions are taking place. Keep them coming!

[ZackM]

Christmassss said:

I have never been that impressed with the 350z. It never felt that 'sporty'

If it was me and my money with your requirements, I would get an RX7 or a 200sx(ignoring the 6 cylinder thing, unless you bang an RB26 in there) with HSD coilovers.

I had a 1990 RX7 turbo. Fun car for the time. But I don't want another Wenkel. And what 200SX? S13? Here the 200SX is that, if I'm not wrong. In the U.S. is the 240SX. But that never really did anything for me. Besides it's much older than I would like too. So that is a better sports car than the 350Z?

[ZackM]

Bone Rat said:

Don't often comment on these type of threads but do have experience of these types of car, Puma, TT, Cayman now getting m240i. When we bought the Mk2 TT we looked at the RX8, the TT and the Nissan. Discounted the RX8 because of the issues around fuel consumption & hot starting. So came down to the TT & 350Z.

Yes there are the different handling characteristics but what swung us to the TT was the dirty great beam across the boot space in the Nissan which meant it became functionally bonkers. We had a salesman trying to say you could get 2 golf bags in there if you knew how. Not much use if you want to put a box though in and have no intention of playing golf!

Just remember that you won't be driving on the edge of the envelope all of the time and that what seem mundane points in the heat of purchase and the driving experience can rapidly take the shine off. Puma boot filling with water each time you open it in the rain, lack of external boot release on TT making it possible to lock yourself out, exciting roar of the Cayman becoming headache inducing noise after 2 hour commute etc...

Interesting that you bring the trunk suspension bar up. Tiff also pointed that out as a problem. To me it doesn't bother me. It will be more like a weekend car, occasional daily driver. But I don't think I will ever need to go to the supermarket to do the weekly shopping in it. But you make a good point about what seem mundane points in the heat of purchase and the driving experience can rapidly take the shine off. Maybe I will grow to hate the trunk bar if i buy a 350Z. Who knows.

The TT is unfortunately FWD or AWD only. I really want RWD for this one. I have been driving FWD and 4x4 for the last several years. I'm ready for RWD fun again.

[ZackM]

coldel said:

The standard 6 spoke wheels on the basic 350z are heavy as sin, the five spoke Rays are much lighter and you are looking for unsprung weight to improve the handling of the car. The Rays are amazing value given they come as standard on some Zeds and are forged lightweight wheels!

Are these the Rays you speak of:



Because if yes, great, as they are my favorite wheels on the 350Z. I haven't seen even an aftermarket set which looks better on it than these IMO.

[ZackM]

ZackM said:

I was starting to wonder what could be done to cut weight. Removing the sound deadening is an interesting idea. 40Kg off is a good amount. Isn't that basically what the 370Z is lighter than the 350Z? But what effect did it have inside the cabin? Too loud? Removing the sound deadening from inside the cabin would most likely make it too loud. But I wonder what effect removing the sound deadening of the boot on his car and around the rear arches had.

Hey coldel, I wanted to bring the above question up again, just in case you missed it.

Do you know? Thanks.

[ZackM]

Christmassss said:

Apologies, missed the part where you weren't in the Uk.

By 200sx i mean either the S14a -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cook88/5971193195

Or the S15 -

https://jdmaccessories.com.au/product/nissan-s15-2...

Both come with the 2.0 Turbo SR20DET, which is good for 300bhp+

In my opinion i would have an RX7/200sx over a 350z as it gives a much more raw experience, I always found the 350z a little dull. However it may well be a different car with a few modifications.

Oh, OK. S14. Over here they are all above budget.

But that reminds me of an Top Gear episode about early 2000s coupes. Clarkson was choosing the best one. In the end is was down to S14 vs Alfa GTV. Clarkson said that even though the S14 was more capable he choose the Alfa. Just because after he parks it, the S14 doesn't make him look back at it and want to get in again and go for another spin. I totally understand that feeling.

But they are above budget here.And to be honest so are RX7 FDs.

[ZackM]

DoubleD said:

So Zack, have you got some test drives lined up yet?

No, not yet. I don't want to drive 100KM to test a car I don't know if I will buy. I also want to test one at a dealership first. Because then I won't waste a private persons time by driving their car knowing I won't buy it, because it's either too high mileage or riced up etc. I also want to drive a stock one first. So I'm looking for a stock one near by in a dealership. Will probably take a bit.

So your question about test drives, in plural form read a bit comical from my point of view. I will be lucky if I find ONE soon.

It's not like in the U.S or UK where they are everywhere. I don't remember ever seeing one on the road to be honest. At least not recently. Maybe I just don't go to places where they are. But definitely not on the road. I saw a GTR on the Autobahn last week though. But I think it's the first I ever saw here.

Edited by ZackM on Friday 21st September 15:14

[ZackM]

DoubleD said:

But you wont know if you do want to buy a car if you dont actually test it.

Like said before, your opinion is what matters, it doesnt matter what we or some bloke of the telly thinks.

If you are actually looking for a car then an hours drive is nothing.

Absolutely. And I will drive one. But I'm not in any hurry. I don't want to drive far. Did it many times and it's disappointing sometimes. So many dishonest sellers with the condition of their cars etc. I will wait for one close by to pop up. Then if I drive it and fall in love with it, I will go anywhere to pick up the right one.

Like I said they are rare here. It makes the purchase process harder. But it is what it is.

I don't think anybody would even know what it is if they see one, besides petrolheads. Unless they read the badge.

So this can be nice in the end. Not much chance of pulling next to another one in a red light. Not that this is very important. But it's better than something everybody has. Everybody and their grammas have a M3, M4 or Cayman. RCZs are a dime a dozen. TTs and Boxter are even more common. I think every girl who don't drive a crossover of some sort probably has a Boxter or a TT. All very common on the road. But Japanese sports cars not really. You don't see 350Z, 370Z, Supra, RX7 etc. MX-5 sure. GT86 also not that uncommon.The Koreans are also common, like Hyundai Coupe and Genesis.

Something else you also don't see often is British cars. You never really see Lotus or Astons. Jaguars only the XE, XF and the crossovers. But I can't remember last time I saw a F-type out of a dealership. Alfa 4C is also rare. Saw one outside of the dealership so far.

The truth is, here, if you drive something which is not German, or at least French, you are seen as a bit of a weirdo. Korean is now very accepted too and Mazda and a couple of other brands. But majority is German. VW actually or one of its variations. Audi, Seat, Skoda etc.

Edited by ZackM on Friday 21st September 15:36