Paid off HP early, dealership demanding more money
Discussion
Ok so the plot thickens...
Dealer has now sent over a terms and conditions document that I have never seen before that apparently is page 2 of the order form which has clause 14 which basically says I have to pay back the deposit contribution if I withdraw from the finance. I signed the order form initially at the Dealership and do not remember seeing this "page 2". Since then the order changed several times as they kept getting details wrong and every time they emailed over the revised order form it NEVER had page 2 attached to it. I have checked my emails to confirm this.
Having rechecked the order form there is a line that says "WE HEREBY AGREE TO PURCHASE FROM YOU SUBJECT TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS (including those overleaf)". So this does suggest there was a second page.
I have a feeling this is going to come down to my word against theirs BUT does anyone know if there is any FCA regulation that states if contracts are re-issued they must be in full each time? If this exists I think that should be enough to send them packing.
This may be me just overthinking things but having looked at this "page 2" it almost looks like they just whipped this document up to fight me with it - it is not on header paper, has a different font and text size as well. If this document always existed why haven't they referred to it up to this point? Conveniently the specific clause they are referring to is right at the end of document so even if this document has existed previously is it possible they just added this clause specifically to fight me with it? Seems a bit far-fetched but thought it was worth mentioning.
Thoughts please.
Dealer has now sent over a terms and conditions document that I have never seen before that apparently is page 2 of the order form which has clause 14 which basically says I have to pay back the deposit contribution if I withdraw from the finance. I signed the order form initially at the Dealership and do not remember seeing this "page 2". Since then the order changed several times as they kept getting details wrong and every time they emailed over the revised order form it NEVER had page 2 attached to it. I have checked my emails to confirm this.
Having rechecked the order form there is a line that says "WE HEREBY AGREE TO PURCHASE FROM YOU SUBJECT TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS (including those overleaf)". So this does suggest there was a second page.
I have a feeling this is going to come down to my word against theirs BUT does anyone know if there is any FCA regulation that states if contracts are re-issued they must be in full each time? If this exists I think that should be enough to send them packing.
This may be me just overthinking things but having looked at this "page 2" it almost looks like they just whipped this document up to fight me with it - it is not on header paper, has a different font and text size as well. If this document always existed why haven't they referred to it up to this point? Conveniently the specific clause they are referring to is right at the end of document so even if this document has existed previously is it possible they just added this clause specifically to fight me with it? Seems a bit far-fetched but thought it was worth mentioning.
Thoughts please.
Edited by Szkoda on Friday 8th March 11:03
Oh dear oh dear...
Not sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
Not sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
Szkoda said:
Oh dear oh dear...
Not sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
I would reply to him telling him to get fNot sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
ked and you have a copy of the original page2, you will save yourself buckets of stress and hassle for no benefit. 33q said:
I understand the differences and the Karoq cost about £15 in finance and the Polo about £150 but the point is that I and many others kept the deposit contribution and free services. I dislike this shift towards selling finance not cars. I'd much rather agree a deal and finance it myself but I guess the other way is much more profitable than my choice. Many dealers actively encourage early pay off it you engage in a cash deal conversation or at least accept it.....and one dealer told me that some people start off by saying they will pay off immediately but then don't and just carry on with the finance.
OK, but the point is there's no question you keep all the incentives in the Settlement (£150) case. If you Withdraw (£15 case), you're gambling they won't completely unwind the deal. I have no issue with people doing it - I did it, worked fine. But it might not.Edited by Sheepshanks on Friday 8th March 11:59
Szkoda said:
Oh dear oh dear...
Not sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
I wonder if that could be considered a 'false instrument' under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981?Not sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
On the strength of this thread, mate has contacted Lexus finance. They have stated that if he withdraws, then he WILL have to pay the £2000 deposit contribution back. If he settles(which can be done immediately), there are charges amounting to £240
Could be an interesting legal battle for him if he challenged it, but I'd say life is probably too short to fight it. £240 seems quite high considering he's only had it a week
Could be an interesting legal battle for him if he challenged it, but I'd say life is probably too short to fight it. £240 seems quite high considering he's only had it a week
It's been a few hours now since I sent the email and I have not heard a peep from the dealer. Up to this point he has been replying within 10 - 20 mins so one of 2 things is happening:
1) They have an ace up their sleeve and are gearing up for a legal battle.
2) They are royally crapping themselves and have no idea what to do next.
I am confident we are more likely looking at option 2 so I guess at this point I give them at least until Monday for a response? I don't want to drop this until they have confirmed they accept what they have done. I imagine they will come up with some sort of excuse that the contracts changed after we signed them and as a "goodwill" gesture they will drop the pursuit.
Regardless will keep this post updated.
1) They have an ace up their sleeve and are gearing up for a legal battle.
2) They are royally crapping themselves and have no idea what to do next.
I am confident we are more likely looking at option 2 so I guess at this point I give them at least until Monday for a response? I don't want to drop this until they have confirmed they accept what they have done. I imagine they will come up with some sort of excuse that the contracts changed after we signed them and as a "goodwill" gesture they will drop the pursuit.
Regardless will keep this post updated.
Sheepshanks said:
33q said:
I understand the differences and the Karoq cost about £15 in finance and the Polo about £150 but the point is that I and many others kept the deposit contribution and free services. I dislike this shift towards selling finance not cars. I'd much rather agree a deal and finance it myself but I guess the other way is much more profitable than my choice. Many dealers actively encourage early pay off it you engage in a cash deal conversation or at least accept it.....and one dealer told me that some people start off by saying they will pay off immediately but then don't and just carry on with the finance.
OK, but the point is there's no question you keep all the incentives in the Settlement (£150) case. If you Withdraw (£15 case), you're gambling they won't completely unwind the deal. I have no issue with people doing it - I did it, worked fine. But it might not.Edited by Sheepshanks on Friday 8th March 11:59
Szkoda said:
It's been a few hours now since I sent the email and I have not heard a peep from the dealer. Up to this point he has been replying within 10 - 20 mins so one of 2 things is happening:
1) They have an ace up their sleeve and are gearing up for a legal battle.
2) They are royally crapping themselves and have no idea what to do next.
I am confident we are more likely looking at option 2 so I guess at this point I give them at least until Monday for a response? I don't want to drop this until they have confirmed they accept what they have done. I imagine they will come up with some sort of excuse that the contracts changed after we signed them and as a "goodwill" gesture they will drop the pursuit.
Regardless will keep this post updated.
Interesting!1) They have an ace up their sleeve and are gearing up for a legal battle.
2) They are royally crapping themselves and have no idea what to do next.
I am confident we are more likely looking at option 2 so I guess at this point I give them at least until Monday for a response? I don't want to drop this until they have confirmed they accept what they have done. I imagine they will come up with some sort of excuse that the contracts changed after we signed them and as a "goodwill" gesture they will drop the pursuit.
Regardless will keep this post updated.
I'd leave them until Tuesday or Wednesday next week.
Very naughty of them to change the contract.
Latest Update -
Have received an email from the dealer stating "I have passed this on to the relevant departments/managers for them to review".
Not really sure what to make of it other than maybe we will get an email in a few days basically saying someone higher up the chain has decided to let this go.
Have received an email from the dealer stating "I have passed this on to the relevant departments/managers for them to review".
Not really sure what to make of it other than maybe we will get an email in a few days basically saying someone higher up the chain has decided to let this go.
33q said:
I chose my words carefully in my conversations with VWFS and requested to 'Settle the outstanding finance' in both cases. So I didn't withdraw. I confirmed on the phone that there would be no claw back nor loss of free servicing.
There's no issue with VWFS either way, but if you'd Settled the costs would have been similar to the occasion when you really did Settle. I got the same asurances when I Withdrew.I expect we'd have both ended up in heavy duty discussions with VWFS etc if, at some point later, the dealer had asked for the deposit contribution back.
Just wondering what the two services would cost? Is it worth paying the £400 just for this? I too get fed up of being sold finance not a car. Bought a Freelander in 2012, almost new and was encouraged to take out 50% on finance to get 3 years free servicing and -£2k off sticker price. They did stipulate I could settle finance after 5 months and keep the services. With hindsight this was probably to protect their finance company kickback.
They are in business to make money though and it meant 3 JLR services cost me about £100
They are in business to make money though and it meant 3 JLR services cost me about £100
Sheepshanks said:
It's only £400 - it's hard to imagine it's that much of a disater for the dealer.
I was thinking more about breaking FCA/legal rules/legislation by deliberately editing signed contracts to save their own ass. I will be making a complaint to the dealerships head office and Mitsubishi UK but I don't plan on taking it further then that (not that they know that!)Szkoda said:
Latest Update -
Have received an email from the dealer stating "I have passed this on to the relevant departments/managers for them to review".
Not really sure what to make of it other than maybe we will get an email in a few days basically saying someone higher up the chain has decided to let this go.
Any update OP?Have received an email from the dealer stating "I have passed this on to the relevant departments/managers for them to review".
Not really sure what to make of it other than maybe we will get an email in a few days basically saying someone higher up the chain has decided to let this go.
"I have passed this on to the relevant departments/managers for them to review". this sounds to me like they are going to back away quietly now.
Szkoda said:
Sheepshanks said:
It's only £400 - it's hard to imagine it's that much of a disater for the dealer.
I was thinking more about breaking FCA/legal rules/legislation by deliberately editing signed contracts to save their own ass. I will be making a complaint to the dealerships head office and Mitsubishi UK but I don't plan on taking it further then that (not that they know that!)Sorry forgot to update this post!
Dealership head office came back to me half apologising and offering to "allow" me to keep the deposit contribution and giving me a £50 discount on the first service then £100 on the second one (I'm assuming the second one is a major service?).
They are actually making it sound like they are doing me a favour with this deal but I've told them to stuff it and have logged a complaint with the financial ombudsman with the recommendation that this goes to the FCA.
Will post back once I get a response.
Dealership head office came back to me half apologising and offering to "allow" me to keep the deposit contribution and giving me a £50 discount on the first service then £100 on the second one (I'm assuming the second one is a major service?).
They are actually making it sound like they are doing me a favour with this deal but I've told them to stuff it and have logged a complaint with the financial ombudsman with the recommendation that this goes to the FCA.
Will post back once I get a response.
xjay1337 said:
Can't help but my Dad did similar when buying his car - around £28k They were giving a couple of £k contribution, and it worked out better off to get it on finance over 12 months and take the deposit contribution.
He kept the finance till it was paid off and was still quite a bit better off
... Not really answering the OP's O-post but I have usually found it better NOT to take the Finance, but you do need to press them a bit ... They will give you a "discount for cash" which makes the "present value" of the purchase pretty much the same as the "present value" of taking the Finance with all their complex ins and outs, incentives, contributions, interest and option-to-purchase etc costs that apply if you cancel in the first month, but without all the headaches of those schemes.He kept the finance till it was paid off and was still quite a bit better off
Just be ready to walk out when they don't and they'll soon call you back.
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