Has my approved Rolls Royce been “clocked”? Please help
Discussion
I honestly did not know that this sort of thing went on with Rolls Royce etc.... and perhaps a private seller or back street garage I would have been more alert but the rolls Royce statement makes you feel so assured that a remote sale during lockdown did feel safe..........the dealer is just not putting anything in writing which makes it even more suspicious and rolls Royce have said they are not liable as contract with dealer...... but surely they can’t make claims like they do about their approved used cars and then simply walk away?
Blue62 said:
An odd thread, buying a used car unseen will always carry a degree of risk, but at this end of the market it does seem strange that the dealer would go to ground.
Clocking is rife on high end cars, I know a guy who has been ‘working’ for prestige main dealers for many years, with the right software I’m told it’s impossible to detect. I’m looking at an expensive 2018 car that claims to have covered less than 4K miles, I will pay for an inspection, but there’s no foolproof way of knowing.
Clocking is rife on high end cars, I know a guy who has been ‘working’ for prestige main dealers for many years, with the right software I’m told it’s impossible to detect. I’m looking at an expensive 2018 car that claims to have covered less than 4K miles, I will pay for an inspection, but there’s no foolproof way of knowing.
hotwheels23 said:
MDMA . said:
Hire car maybe? Have you checked where it came from previous to yourself?
One Private previous owner...No one who can afford the vehicle in question would treat it in the way that’s been documented if it was their car.
I suspect ex high end hire car, and clocked to boot.
wiliferus said:
hotwheels23 said:
MDMA . said:
Hire car maybe? Have you checked where it came from previous to yourself?
One Private previous owner...No one who can afford the vehicle in question would treat it in the way that’s been documented if it was their car.
I suspect ex high end hire car, and clocked to boot.
SCEtoAUX said:
Presumably the satnav will have been reset and not show a whole bunch of previous destinations etc...
(I assume such a car has a satnav)
Tyres? Might be a clue there. 10k miles is probably original tyres territory, with a tell-tale amount of wear.
nothing on sat nav but the tyres...........date on tyres says week 24 2019 so they didn’t get the free service done, but did put new tyres on before you would expect??(I assume such a car has a satnav)
Tyres? Might be a clue there. 10k miles is probably original tyres territory, with a tell-tale amount of wear.
XLYC said:
The blockers can never be detected,
Source
- had a mate who had it in his f30 years ago.
Even went through BMW service numerous times
They’d didn’t even realise
Before sale, all the modules were checked using BMW’s diagnostics, no record of anything.
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.Source
- had a mate who had it in his f30 years ago.
Even went through BMW service numerous times
They’d didn’t even realise
Before sale, all the modules were checked using BMW’s diagnostics, no record of anything.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 19th September 09:42
If registered to a company it can take a bit more digging. I remember many years ago loads of cheap Vauxhall’s with one previous were registered to a company called I.C.E. which I think were company car scheme cars from Vauxhall itself however the name used gave no indication of origin.
Julian Thompson said:
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording. Give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
What a useful post!BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording. Give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Julian Thompson said:
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Brilliant. I'm really looking forward to the results of this on this thread, presumably in a week or so..BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 19th September 09:42
Julian Thompson said:
this is fantastic news, the car was never seen by the main dealer until it was sold back to them 2years later, missing its first and free service, why would you not take a new car in for its first service especially when the car would be telling them to? I was sold the car after reading this statement
“Our legendary and unrivalled attention to detail is no different for a previously-owned Rolls-Royce, than it is for the motor cars leaving Goodwood today. It begins with the selection of the Provenance motor car itself. We only feature those that have been meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level, with an exhaustive written record to prove it.”
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
“Our legendary and unrivalled attention to detail is no different for a previously-owned Rolls-Royce, than it is for the motor cars leaving Goodwood today. It begins with the selection of the Provenance motor car itself. We only feature those that have been meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level, with an exhaustive written record to prove it.”
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 19th September 09:42
Really sorry to read this OP.
It does sound like you need a specialist solicitor or barrister unfortunately. Or at least tell the dealer and RR themselves you'll be issuing legal proceedings if this isn't resolved by X date.
It sounds like a dreadful situation and I hope you get it resolved.
It does sound like you need a specialist solicitor or barrister unfortunately. Or at least tell the dealer and RR themselves you'll be issuing legal proceedings if this isn't resolved by X date.
It sounds like a dreadful situation and I hope you get it resolved.
Julian Thompson said:
.... to add, I forgot, they have now introduced “ISTA+” to replace esys.
This is how it looks to reset the service data - nothing at all about anything else:
Julian, that’s terrific info for the OP. Where should he go to get someone to do this interrogation? If it turns out clocked, detailed data of this sort will be gold-dust for his solicitor’s letter. This is how it looks to reset the service data - nothing at all about anything else:
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