How to ruin my bank account - upgrade 997/Cayman/??
Discussion
Hello chaps and chappettes,
Quiet few days at work led me to daydreaming on Autotrader and Pistonheads as I'm sure we're all guilty of at the best of times.
Currently my fiance is running a MK 7 Golf GTI and would be due for renewal on that in May 2022.
I bought my current car, an S-line TT MK II, in November last year and have managed to put on a rather healthy 9k miles. We both tend to stick to our own cars when we go out alone, or mine if we're heading anywhere together and don't need to lug anything big.
Fiance isn't liking the look of the new MK 8 Golf so will likely end up in something like a Volvo XC 40/60, or at least something practical day to day. Which leaves me looking at the TT and thinking of an upgrade. My slush fund for fun purchases is limited at the moment but could be supplemented by flogging off my Triumph Bobber and a couple of other under used luxury items and obv. selling my TT.
This gives me a rough figure of 25k before tax / insurance etc. which is a healthy pot to play with all things considered.
My heart currently says to search out a well sorted 997.1 (preferably with a Hartech or equivalent rebuild). But these cars are going to be 14-15 years old for the budget. Maintenance could be steep but reportedly have a good Porsche indy nearby and they're for all accounts not too hard to work on yourself. So it would end up probably being a bit of a project car with steady investment in upgrades and maintenance. Gen 2's tend to be above budget.
Late 987 Cayman S are in budget but not a massive fan of them visually. The 981 S will stretch the budget but given that it will be newer it should present less chances to cost me a lot of money.
I enjoy a good spirited A and B-Road run as there's miles and miles of good roads in Scotland. So the ideal car is fun in the twisties, compact, not over geared, auto box (for license reasons). Heart says 997, head says Cayman.
Option A: 997.1 - 3.6 or 3.8 without rebuild (risking the chocolate engine troubles)
Option B: 997.1 Carerra (S/4S) with rebuild engine
Option C: 987 Cayman 2.9 - cheaper option
Option D: 981 (but over budget for a sorted one with nice spec)
Or, the surprise (what's in the box?) Autotrader doesn't seem to throw out much that's interesting. Not looking for a hatchback, AT tends to throw out a lot of BMW 2-series, or CLKs but they don't interest me. I know that autobox limits me but it is what it is.
Any suggestions or opinions or real world experience to sway me either way?
Current Car: 2011 TT MK2 S-Line
Example A: 2005 997.1 3.6 Carrera - ±23,500
Example B: 2005 997.1 3.8 Carrera S w/ Rebuild ±26-30,000
Example C: 2011 987 Cayman S ±23-25,000
Example D: 2013 981 Cayman S ±28,000
Quiet few days at work led me to daydreaming on Autotrader and Pistonheads as I'm sure we're all guilty of at the best of times.
Currently my fiance is running a MK 7 Golf GTI and would be due for renewal on that in May 2022.
I bought my current car, an S-line TT MK II, in November last year and have managed to put on a rather healthy 9k miles. We both tend to stick to our own cars when we go out alone, or mine if we're heading anywhere together and don't need to lug anything big.
Fiance isn't liking the look of the new MK 8 Golf so will likely end up in something like a Volvo XC 40/60, or at least something practical day to day. Which leaves me looking at the TT and thinking of an upgrade. My slush fund for fun purchases is limited at the moment but could be supplemented by flogging off my Triumph Bobber and a couple of other under used luxury items and obv. selling my TT.
This gives me a rough figure of 25k before tax / insurance etc. which is a healthy pot to play with all things considered.
My heart currently says to search out a well sorted 997.1 (preferably with a Hartech or equivalent rebuild). But these cars are going to be 14-15 years old for the budget. Maintenance could be steep but reportedly have a good Porsche indy nearby and they're for all accounts not too hard to work on yourself. So it would end up probably being a bit of a project car with steady investment in upgrades and maintenance. Gen 2's tend to be above budget.
Late 987 Cayman S are in budget but not a massive fan of them visually. The 981 S will stretch the budget but given that it will be newer it should present less chances to cost me a lot of money.
I enjoy a good spirited A and B-Road run as there's miles and miles of good roads in Scotland. So the ideal car is fun in the twisties, compact, not over geared, auto box (for license reasons). Heart says 997, head says Cayman.
Option A: 997.1 - 3.6 or 3.8 without rebuild (risking the chocolate engine troubles)
Option B: 997.1 Carerra (S/4S) with rebuild engine
Option C: 987 Cayman 2.9 - cheaper option
Option D: 981 (but over budget for a sorted one with nice spec)
Or, the surprise (what's in the box?) Autotrader doesn't seem to throw out much that's interesting. Not looking for a hatchback, AT tends to throw out a lot of BMW 2-series, or CLKs but they don't interest me. I know that autobox limits me but it is what it is.
Any suggestions or opinions or real world experience to sway me either way?
Current Car: 2011 TT MK2 S-Line
Example A: 2005 997.1 3.6 Carrera - ±23,500
Example B: 2005 997.1 3.8 Carrera S w/ Rebuild ±26-30,000
Example C: 2011 987 Cayman S ±23-25,000
Example D: 2013 981 Cayman S ±28,000
Edited by RichTT on Thursday 1st October 09:31
Edited by RichTT on Thursday 1st October 09:32
If you go for rebuilt 997.1, make sure you confirm exactly what was done with Hartech. You're looking for 6 new liners rather than the cheapskate version where the owner just has 3, sometimes less, replaced. 6 new closed deck cylinders from Hartech is the best solution for this engine.
Magnum 475 said:
If you go for rebuilt 997.1, make sure you confirm exactly what was done with Hartech. You're looking for 6 new liners rather than the cheapskate version where the owner just has 3, sometimes less, replaced. 6 new closed deck cylinders from Hartech is the best solution for this engine.
How about Portiacraft, have they got a decent reputation for rebuilds?RichTT said:
Magnum 475 said:
If you go for rebuilt 997.1, make sure you confirm exactly what was done with Hartech. You're looking for 6 new liners rather than the cheapskate version where the owner just has 3, sometimes less, replaced. 6 new closed deck cylinders from Hartech is the best solution for this engine.
How about Portiacraft, have they got a decent reputation for rebuilds?Personally, I'd only touch a 997.1 with a 'full' Hartech engine, or bought cheaply enough to keep a fund to pay for the full Hartech rebuild. Hartech's modifications are known to be good and create an engine that won't destroy itself, whereas others don't seem to have that track record.
My ideal approach would be to buy a car with an owner who's honest enough to admit that it's bores are shot and then ship it to Hartech. That way I get an engine rebuild to my spec - probably including a small increase in capacity while it's there.
I ran a 997.1 for 2 years with no issues. Sure, it's somewhat of a gamble, but I do think the bore score issues are a little overplayed. Fantastic car, I'd thoroughly recommend. If the budget stretches to a rebuilt engine or a gen 2 for the piece of mind then go for it, but I wouldn't write off and original gen 1.
What is the cost of a Hartech rebuild? How much would you need in a slush fund if you bought a standard car and kept your fingers crossed?
(On the subject of B road fun, I've not driven the cars on your list but did own a 996 turbo for over 5 years. For me, it lacked the 'fun' element and I'd be wary of choosing a modern 911 for that kind of use. Capable of many things, including daily use - but I'd never choose one as a weekend fun car).
(On the subject of B road fun, I've not driven the cars on your list but did own a 996 turbo for over 5 years. For me, it lacked the 'fun' element and I'd be wary of choosing a modern 911 for that kind of use. Capable of many things, including daily use - but I'd never choose one as a weekend fun car).
davek_964 said:
What is the cost of a Hartech rebuild? How much would you need in a slush fund if you bought a standard car and kept your fingers crossed?
(On the subject of B road fun, I've not driven the cars on your list but did own a 996 turbo for over 5 years. For me, it lacked the 'fun' element and I'd be wary of choosing a modern 911 for that kind of use. Capable of many things, including daily use - but I'd never choose one as a weekend fun car).
Early gen 1's base Carrera are coming in at 23-25k for lower mileage examples (say 45-70k) Hartec rebuild price list below. (On the subject of B road fun, I've not driven the cars on your list but did own a 996 turbo for over 5 years. For me, it lacked the 'fun' element and I'd be wary of choosing a modern 911 for that kind of use. Capable of many things, including daily use - but I'd never choose one as a weekend fun car).
If it went pop you'd be looking at 2300 + 1400 for a rebuild on the 3 cylinders on one side or a shade under 6 grand for all 6 cylinders in one go.
Base Engine Rebuild (Engine Only): £2300 + VAT
Comprising of: Strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage).
Base Engine Rebuild (Car & Engine): £3600 + VAT
Comprising of: Remove engine & gearbox assembly, remove ancillaries and strip to long motor, strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage), strip & check induction system for debris, re-assemble induction system & fit to engine, re-fit all ancillaries, re-fit engine & gearbox assembly to car, get running with new Porsche approved oil, filter, coolant, power steering fluid, carry out air conditioning re-gas if needed & thoroughly road test (several journeys covering around 50 miles) & check over. A rolling road facility is currently being installed to offer an additional alternative test facility.
This initial Porsche engine re-build price doesn't cover the cost of the internals needed to repair the damage such as the 997 scored cylinder or Boxster IMS bearing failure so additional costs are then applied to address the actual engine issue. We operate a flexible pricing system and we're happy to discuss common scenarios but the table below covers typical areas:
Option a) 1 x New Cylinder : £600 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinder with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option b) 2 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): £1100 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option c) 3 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): £1400 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option d) 6 x New Cylinders: £2500 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikiski plating fitted to a stripped engine.
I suspect many PHers have looked into these sorts of cars. Personally for £25k I would be wanting to obtain a car with an engine that I could have confidence in for the long term, rather than entering Casino Stuttgart.
MX-5, GT86 will be torque converter automatic, so likely less fun than the German DSGs.
987.2 is HPAS rather than EPAS and a tad smaller, could be better B-road fun than the 981 even though it doesn't look as good?
I think the equivalent Boxster is still a bit cheaper than the Cayman in the 987 and 981 generations, might be worth considering as would square the budget and open top might be more fun on B roads?
MX-5, GT86 will be torque converter automatic, so likely less fun than the German DSGs.
987.2 is HPAS rather than EPAS and a tad smaller, could be better B-road fun than the 981 even though it doesn't look as good?
I think the equivalent Boxster is still a bit cheaper than the Cayman in the 987 and 981 generations, might be worth considering as would square the budget and open top might be more fun on B roads?
AlexNJ89 said:
Not considering a 2016 TTS?
Hmm, yes and no. I like the look, it would be a much more modern car (relative to the 997). It's a massively competent car and I would never be able to outdrive it on a public road for sure. It's just a bit vanilla... If I'm going for something else as a second car I want to be an event. Something that's a bit more old school and engaging to drive. I've never actually had the opportunity or ability to buy anything exciting before. I'm not beholden to Porsche as such, but I guess there's definitely some badge allure involved. RichTT said:
Hmm, yes and no. I like the look, it would be a much more modern car (relative to the 997). It's a massively competent car and I would never be able to outdrive it on a public road for sure. It's just a bit vanilla... If I'm going for something else as a second car I want to be an event. Something that's a bit more old school and engaging to drive. I've never actually had the opportunity or ability to buy anything exciting before. I'm not beholden to Porsche as such, but I guess there's definitely some badge allure involved.
If you want a car that's an event & an engaging drive that's also an icon with a bulletproof engine then I give you this:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corvette-C6-6-0L-LS2-Au...
RichTT said:
Hmm, yes and no. I like the look, it would be a much more modern car (relative to the 997). It's a massively competent car and I would never be able to outdrive it on a public road for sure. It's just a bit vanilla... If I'm going for something else as a second car I want to be an event. Something that's a bit more old school and engaging to drive. I've never actually had the opportunity or ability to buy anything exciting before. I'm not beholden to Porsche as such, but I guess there's definitely some badge allure involved.
I did find the TTS to be a bit ... numb.You could throw a Jag F-type in to your shortlist if you want drama but be able to use its full potential on the road
ZX10R NIN said:
If you want a car that's an event & an engaging drive that's also an icon with a bulletproof engine then I give you this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corvette-C6-6-0L-LS2-Au...
That gave me a proper chuckle at the thought of pulling up back at the house for the first time and seeing her face. I'm not actually sure if that's a great idea, or if it screams mid-life crisis more than the porsche option!https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corvette-C6-6-0L-LS2-Au...
AlexNJ89 said:
I did find the TTS to be a bit ... numb.
You could throw a Jag F-type in to your shortlist if you want drama but be able to use its full potential on the road
Yup, I went down to the local JLR dealer just before lockdown actually for a nosy about. F-type is a beautiful car no doubts about it. Early 3.0 v6 models creep into the just under 30k mark it seems. It does however suffer from modern car size and weight creep. It's over 2m wide! I'll bear it in mind though. You could throw a Jag F-type in to your shortlist if you want drama but be able to use its full potential on the road
RichTT said:
That gave me a proper chuckle at the thought of pulling up back at the house for the first time and seeing her face. I'm not actually sure if that's a great idea, or if it screams mid-life crisis more than the porsche option!
Lol I don't think it screams (that's the C5) mid life crisis (the first thing I'd do is lose the bonnet stripe) most people will be intrigued as to what it is, as for OH that'll change when she gets in it.You'll get more positive feedback than in the Porsche, or you could combine the two & buy a 997 that's had an LS swap
RichTT said:
Early gen 1's base Carrera are coming in at 23-25k for lower mileage examples (say 45-70k) Hartec rebuild price list below.
If it went pop you'd be looking at 2300 + 1400 for a rebuild on the 3 cylinders on one side or a shade under 6 grand for all 6 cylinders in one go.
Base Engine Rebuild (Engine Only): £2300 + VAT
Comprising of: Strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage).
Base Engine Rebuild (Car & Engine): £3600 + VAT
Comprising of: Remove engine & gearbox assembly, remove ancillaries and strip to long motor, strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage), strip & check induction system for debris, re-assemble induction system & fit to engine, re-fit all ancillaries, re-fit engine & gearbox assembly to car, get running with new Porsche approved oil, filter, coolant, power steering fluid, carry out air conditioning re-gas if needed & thoroughly road test (several journeys covering around 50 miles) & check over. A rolling road facility is currently being installed to offer an additional alternative test facility.
This initial Porsche engine re-build price doesn't cover the cost of the internals needed to repair the damage such as the 997 scored cylinder or Boxster IMS bearing failure so additional costs are then applied to address the actual engine issue. We operate a flexible pricing system and we're happy to discuss common scenarios but the table below covers typical areas:
Option a) 1 x New Cylinder : £600 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinder with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option b) 2 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): £1100 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option c) 3 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): £1400 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option d) 6 x New Cylinders: £2500 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikiski plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Anecdotally, people and up paying double those prices for drive in / drive out with all the “while you’re in there” jobs. If it went pop you'd be looking at 2300 + 1400 for a rebuild on the 3 cylinders on one side or a shade under 6 grand for all 6 cylinders in one go.
Base Engine Rebuild (Engine Only): £2300 + VAT
Comprising of: Strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage).
Base Engine Rebuild (Car & Engine): £3600 + VAT
Comprising of: Remove engine & gearbox assembly, remove ancillaries and strip to long motor, strip engine, clean & prepare for re-build, re-assemble with all new gaskets/seals (except valve stem oil seals at this stage), strip & check induction system for debris, re-assemble induction system & fit to engine, re-fit all ancillaries, re-fit engine & gearbox assembly to car, get running with new Porsche approved oil, filter, coolant, power steering fluid, carry out air conditioning re-gas if needed & thoroughly road test (several journeys covering around 50 miles) & check over. A rolling road facility is currently being installed to offer an additional alternative test facility.
This initial Porsche engine re-build price doesn't cover the cost of the internals needed to repair the damage such as the 997 scored cylinder or Boxster IMS bearing failure so additional costs are then applied to address the actual engine issue. We operate a flexible pricing system and we're happy to discuss common scenarios but the table below covers typical areas:
Option a) 1 x New Cylinder : £600 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinder with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option b) 2 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): £1100 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option c) 3 x New Cylinders (In Same Half): £1400 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating fitted to a stripped engine.
Option d) 6 x New Cylinders: £2500 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikiski plating fitted to a stripped engine.
My vote, based on my understanding of your criteria, would be for a 987.2, or what about an Evora?
griffter said:
Anecdotally, people and up paying double those prices for drive in / drive out with all the “while you’re in there” jobs.
My vote, based on my understanding of your criteria, would be for a 987.2, or what about an Evora?
Yes i've seen that reported as well. I guess if you're going to be keeping an older, dare I say, classic(ish) car on the road it's better to make sure it's properly sorted and avoid the kind of headaches that can come from a 15 yr old car regardless of service history. My vote, based on my understanding of your criteria, would be for a 987.2, or what about an Evora?
I think I'm going to be looking for a 987.2 S or 981 Cayman. 981 Will be the more modern of the cars, high end of the budget even for a non S version. But will see what turns up.
Auto Evora's are as rare as rocking horse poo and the ones I've seen are double the budget. In a perfect world I would be going straight for an Alpine A110 but they're also still well above budget.
Edited by RichTT on Friday 2nd October 12:32
Edited by RichTT on Friday 2nd October 12:46
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