EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
HTP99 said:
Renault reccomend charging the Megane E-Tech to 80% (it can be set to do so) for normal day to day, nothing to do with battery health, it is due to the remaining 20% of a 100% charge, the charging rate slows down considerably, thus costing the end user more.
More in a ‘time is money’ sense?HTP99 said:
Renault reccomend charging the Megane E-Tech to 80% (it can be set to do so) for normal day to day, nothing to do with battery health, it is due to the remaining 20% of a 100% charge, the charging rate slows down considerably, thus costing the end user more.
?The final 20% of battery capacity costs exactly the same to charge as the first 20%, it just takes longer to do as is the case with pretty much every EV. Electricity costs are based on how many units are used, not time.
If they're recommending keeping the battery between 20-80% then that's to do with health/longevity of the pack, not charging costs.
HTP99 said:
No the monetary cost to charge the last 20%, one of our technicians was told on the Megane training that for every x amount (I can't remember the figure but it was less than 10) of 80% charges, you effectively get a free charge, as opposed to the same amount of charges to 100%.
Makes no sense whatsoever as far as I am concerned. The cost of a kWh doesn't change due to how long it takes to deliver it. Unless they're saying that their battery tech is so poor that charging losses between 80-100% are significantly higher than between 60-80%?
Edited by SWoll on Sunday 19th March 08:18
HTP99 said:
SpeckledJim said:
HTP99 said:
Renault reccomend charging the Megane E-Tech to 80% (it can be set to do so) for normal day to day, nothing to do with battery health, it is due to the remaining 20% of a 100% charge, the charging rate slows down considerably, thus costing the end user more.
More in a ‘time is money’ sense?FWIW said:
Mark V GTD said:
The Volkswagen id3 info/charging screen in the car states not to charge to more than 80% to maximise battery life.
What does it *really* say?
Indeed.
As others have said….modern EVs definitely have excess capacity beyond the stated (same for home batteries), to enable them to allow charge to “95 or 100%” (DoD - depth of discharge in the home battery parlance).
Sure, they may be broad guidance on things: EV charging certainly tails off above 80% (ie, takes longer), so if on a long run with public chargepoints, it is likely worth moving on around 80%.
Mercedes are also still recommending 20-80% on the EQC and as I understand it there is 5kw of battery capacity that I don’t have access to (85kw battery but only 80kw available).
I have seen “range extender” updates being sold which I presume gives you access to that extra 5kw; however, I wouldn’t fancy throwing away my 100000 mile, 8 year warranty!
I have seen “range extender” updates being sold which I presume gives you access to that extra 5kw; however, I wouldn’t fancy throwing away my 100000 mile, 8 year warranty!
mikeiow said:
Indeed.
As others have said….modern EVs definitely have excess capacity beyond the stated (same for home batteries), to enable them to allow charge to “95 or 100%” (DoD - depth of discharge in the home battery parlance).
Sure, they may be broad guidance on things: EV charging certainly tails off above 80% (ie, takes longer), so if on a long run with public chargepoints, it is likely worth moving on around 80%.
I wonder how many first owners who have their car on a lease, PCP or company scheme care about the 80% idea or battery longevity?
If the car will be off after 3 years and 36000 miles anyway I suspect a lot of drivers just do what they want and sod the consequences in 5 years time when it'll be someone else's problem.
Sadly many people treat ICE cars in much the same "not my problem" way now so I'm sure they do EVs.
If the car will be off after 3 years and 36000 miles anyway I suspect a lot of drivers just do what they want and sod the consequences in 5 years time when it'll be someone else's problem.
Sadly many people treat ICE cars in much the same "not my problem" way now so I'm sure they do EVs.
barryrs said:
Mercedes are also still recommending 20-80% on the EQC and as I understand it there is 5kw of battery capacity that I don’t have access to (85kw battery but only 80kw available).
I have seen “range extender” updates being sold which I presume gives you access to that extra 5kw; however, I wouldn’t fancy throwing away my 100000 mile, 8 year warranty!
I expect all EVs have a small amount unavailable for drive. On footage I've seen of people deliberately driving to 0%, they can still open and close & lock doors and turn on lights etc. This would be for safety's sake (the passengers) and for when a breakdown truck comes. If zero really was zero, the car would have to be lifted to be moved (as is already the case for a serious fault), and it would be unlit, possibly in a dangerous place.I have seen “range extender” updates being sold which I presume gives you access to that extra 5kw; however, I wouldn’t fancy throwing away my 100000 mile, 8 year warranty!
Muzzer79 said:
My colleague has an Audi E-Tron GT RS. Charges it to 100% every day.
I questioned this due to the battery life thing, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it wasn’t his problem after 3 years.
Do you honestly expect someone to limit the utility of an item they have paid a significant amount of money for out of concern for the possibility that in 5-10 years time it might cause a bill for another owner?I questioned this due to the battery life thing, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it wasn’t his problem after 3 years.
How about people who tow caravans, should they asked to stop doing so as it puts a lot more strain on the engine, gearbox, brakes and suspension components per mile?
If there's an issue with battery longevity if charged above 80% regularly then the manufacturers need to resolve it or fit bigger batteries where 80% offers the same range as 100% now and leave a 20% buffer. Don't expect the owner of the vehicle to be responsible.
sixor8 said:
I expect all EVs have a small amount unavailable for drive. On footage I've seen of people deliberately driving to 0%, they can still open and close & lock doors and turn on lights etc. This would be for safety's sake (the passengers) and for when a breakdown truck comes. If zero really was zero, the car would have to be lifted to be moved (as is already the case for a serious fault), and it would be unlit, possibly in a dangerous place.
The buffer is at the top end of the battery, not the bottom. It's purpose isn't to hold a reserve level of charge for when you take the car below 0% as it isn't their for storage.And a lot of the electrical items in the car still run off the 12v system so won't be immediately affected by a drained traction battery anyway.
A flat EV will almost always have to be either lifted and taken to a charger or charged at the roadside via a battery in the recovery van.
Edited by SWoll on Sunday 19th March 10:52
SWoll said:
Muzzer79 said:
My colleague has an Audi E-Tron GT RS. Charges it to 100% every day.
I questioned this due to the battery life thing, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it wasn’t his problem after 3 years.
Do you honestly expect someone to limit the utility of an item they have paid a significant amount of money for out of concern for the possibility that in 5-10 years time it might cause a bill for another owner?I questioned this due to the battery life thing, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it wasn’t his problem after 3 years.
I have a similar philosophy to my colleague with my E-Tron. I just charge it. Albeit, I do regularly just charge it to 80% if I know I'm only going to be doing light mileage.
It's a lease car - the state of the battery in 3 years is not my concern.
Muzzer79 said:
SWoll said:
Muzzer79 said:
My colleague has an Audi E-Tron GT RS. Charges it to 100% every day.
I questioned this due to the battery life thing, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it wasn’t his problem after 3 years.
Do you honestly expect someone to limit the utility of an item they have paid a significant amount of money for out of concern for the possibility that in 5-10 years time it might cause a bill for another owner?I questioned this due to the battery life thing, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it wasn’t his problem after 3 years.
I have a similar philosophy to my colleague with my E-Tron. I just charge it. Albeit, I do regularly just charge it to 80% if I know I'm only going to be doing light mileage.
It's a lease car - the state of the battery in 3 years is not my concern.
FWIW said:
What does it *really* say?
OK OK - it says 'Max. 80% recomm. for optimum charging'.I took that to mean don't charge over 80% if you want to maximise the life of your battery - but maybe it means something else?
SWoll said:
Apologies, was more a question for posters commenting that it's an issue as you only get to use 80% of the available range.
I certainly charged mine to over 90% on occasion but only when I was going to drive it straight away. The impression I got at the time was "don't charge the car to 100% and leave it" - but I'm no EV expert and this was just my comprehension at the time, from what I read and was told (I sold the car at the end of September 2022 and have now taken delivery of a diesel by the way).Edited by Mark V GTD on Monday 20th March 18:43
SWoll said:
HTP99 said:
Renault reccomend charging the Megane E-Tech to 80% (it can be set to do so) for normal day to day, nothing to do with battery health, it is due to the remaining 20% of a 100% charge, the charging rate slows down considerably, thus costing the end user more.
?The final 20% of battery capacity costs exactly the same to charge as the first 20%, it just takes longer to do as is the case with pretty much every EV. Electricity costs are based on how many units are used, not time.
If they're recommending keeping the battery between 20-80% then that's to do with health/longevity of the pack, not charging costs.
HTP99 said:
No the monetary cost to charge the last 20%, one of our technicians was told on the Megane training that for every x amount (I can't remember the figure but it was less than 10) of 80% charges, you effectively get a free charge, as opposed to the same amount of charges to 100%.
Makes no sense whatsoever as far as I am concerned. The cost of a kWh doesn't change due to how long it takes to deliver it. Unless they're saying that their battery tech is so poor that charging losses between 80-100% are significantly higher than between 60-80%?
Edited by SWoll on Sunday 19th March 08:18
Eg, you draw 40kwh and get 35kwh to the battery due to losses. That's something that just happens as it's not 100% efficient energy movement process. Does it get more lossy at the end of the battery capacity? Perhaps. Never heard this theory before though.
confused_buyer said:
I wonder how many first owners who have their car on a lease, PCP or company scheme care about the 80% idea or battery longevity?
If the car will be off after 3 years and 36000 miles anyway I suspect a lot of drivers just do what they want and sod the consequences in 5 years time when it'll be someone else's problem.
Sadly many people treat ICE cars in much the same "not my problem" way now so I'm sure they do EVs.
With mobile phones there is a battery health indicator (on some models). Presumably a similar report is available on an EV so as a buyer, you could theoretically compare battery health of different used examples?If the car will be off after 3 years and 36000 miles anyway I suspect a lot of drivers just do what they want and sod the consequences in 5 years time when it'll be someone else's problem.
Sadly many people treat ICE cars in much the same "not my problem" way now so I'm sure they do EVs.
I've heard this theory (keeping charge between 20 and 80%) for mobile phones as well but have never bothered with it personally as it then means the hassle of charging more frequently.
Edited by C G on Tuesday 21st March 15:47
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