EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
confused_buyer said:
Nano2nd said:
where are they these 1.5 year old ones struggling to fetch £18k?
Umm. The one further up the page? Would probably be £18k ish trade at the moment if that's the retail price. Nano2nd said:
LOL that cars £24k, how do you get "struggling to fetch £18k?" from that? trade price is irrelevant to most buyers
To buyers yes, but at the end of a PCP cars are disposed of via the trade. So if you're a finance company who have underwritten a GFV at £21k and the car goes off the auction and fetches £17k it's not a good day.Chipper said:
I’ve stated before that a model 3 is basically the white good of our generation. Nothing more than the Mondeo of our time.I have no love for them whatsoever. But economically Tesla have it and are clearly showing they do. And comically you are going to see more and more Tesla’s on the road each month.
Surely but as Tesla’s are just white goods it’s not hard to fathom that people will spend extra to drive something with a nicer interior or is better to drive. I think the majority of car manufacturers will be fine.
confused_buyer said:
We know a C sized EV for about £25k is possible because MG have done one (which has now gone up to £27k but you get the point).
Furthermore by all accounts they have a pretty big margin at that price. Tesla could also probably sell a Model 3 for £32k and still make more money per car than VW do on a ID3.
Tesla seem simply miles ahead on their cost base compared to the traditional manufacturers.
Also on the "cheap" front note that Dacia are the part of Renault group who are actually making all the profit at the moment.
Not sure that's accurate. MG is subsidised by the Chinese government. It's why their EVs will always be cheaper than European ones. There will be a trade/tariff war over this once EVs take a larger chunk of the market. Furthermore by all accounts they have a pretty big margin at that price. Tesla could also probably sell a Model 3 for £32k and still make more money per car than VW do on a ID3.
Tesla seem simply miles ahead on their cost base compared to the traditional manufacturers.
Also on the "cheap" front note that Dacia are the part of Renault group who are actually making all the profit at the moment.
Edited by confused_buyer on Saturday 11th March 09:27
I believe tesla are subsidised by the Chinese government too. I also believe a new round of American subsidies are to apply to American built ev cars of about $7500 per unit ( one of the reasons tesla cut their prices so as to stay under the $55k cut off price point to qualify). Note teslas built outside of america wouldn't qualify which is why they cannot exploit the spare production capacity they currently have to meet US demands.
As per the start of this thread the UK EV market is currently somewhat messed up and that includes tesla.
Across Europe various EV subsidies are being cut or withdrawn entirely and that affects the market.
There is also a school of thought that those who can afford and are PREPARED to spend over £50k on an EV are dwindling, again this impacts the market.
So where are we with used EV in the UK? Limited demand and depressed valuations. What can change this or who can change this?
Either way i can't see it changing anytime soon.
Those who were cautious about EV beforehand are now going to be ultra cautious having seen the volatility in used prices.
This will also make them even more expensive as ,given most new cars are sold on pcp, the finance houses will be more cautious with their GFV pushing monthlies up so surely new car sales are likely to suffer too? A vicious cycle.
As per the start of this thread the UK EV market is currently somewhat messed up and that includes tesla.
Across Europe various EV subsidies are being cut or withdrawn entirely and that affects the market.
There is also a school of thought that those who can afford and are PREPARED to spend over £50k on an EV are dwindling, again this impacts the market.
So where are we with used EV in the UK? Limited demand and depressed valuations. What can change this or who can change this?
Either way i can't see it changing anytime soon.
Those who were cautious about EV beforehand are now going to be ultra cautious having seen the volatility in used prices.
This will also make them even more expensive as ,given most new cars are sold on pcp, the finance houses will be more cautious with their GFV pushing monthlies up so surely new car sales are likely to suffer too? A vicious cycle.
I’ve decided to get myself an EQC which should be more than adequate for my needs 95% of the time.
The car I have purchased was bought in by the main dealer for £57k and they spent £1k prepping it. I have just purchased it for £40k (£50k rrp) as Mercedes are offering a £9k deposit contribution and I got £1k of further discount and prep with no clawback on early settlement!
That’s an £8k loss on the car plus a £9k sweetener!
The car I have purchased was bought in by the main dealer for £57k and they spent £1k prepping it. I have just purchased it for £40k (£50k rrp) as Mercedes are offering a £9k deposit contribution and I got £1k of further discount and prep with no clawback on early settlement!
That’s an £8k loss on the car plus a £9k sweetener!
CG2020UK said:
Surely but as Tesla’s are just white goods it’s not hard to fathom that people will spend extra to drive something with a nicer interior or is better to drive.
I think the majority of car manufacturers will be fine.
But it’s not £1000, £2000 difference we are talking about here. It’s a £10000 difference for vehicles that don’t even have a proper charging network so you can actually drive them without having a panic attack from London to Edinburgh. Who gives a damn about a dash or interior trim if the car fails at the first hurdle on the one thing it should be good at. Ie actually getting you from A to B easily and stress free ! I think the majority of car manufacturers will be fine.
The only argument people seem to have is that they don’t like the dash or the build quality is poor or Elon is a cock. Honestly take all the emotion out of this and look at the bigger picture. We are only a few years away from the end of ICE production and the only choice we will have are EV’s. So 100 people need a form of transport and they all have £50000 to spend. You have the model 3 at £40000 and every other vehicle in the same category is £50000. The Tesla has more kit even though it’s cheaper, you don’t have to service it at all, has the ability to do wireless updates and a charging network that actually works. You also have the fact for a lot of the younger generation Tesla is the car to own. Then you have the rest which are £10000 more and can be a struggle to charge on long runs. I would guess of that 100 a minimum of 40 people would take the Tesla but honestly I think it would be a lot higher.
Is Tesla really what young people want? After his foolishness with Twitter he has lost a lot of support, especially amongst the young and engaged. He isn't cool anymore, he's is seen as an arse, and that hurts brands, especially with the young.
There is plenty more wrong with Tesla, especially the model 3. It looks rubbish as a car design, bland and boring and not fresh either. It looks like a very old design.
There is plenty more wrong with Tesla, especially the model 3. It looks rubbish as a car design, bland and boring and not fresh either. It looks like a very old design.
500TORQUES said:
Is Tesla really what young people want? After his foolishness with Twitter he has lost a lot of support, especially amongst the young and engaged. He isn't cool anymore, he's is seen as an arse, and that hurts brands, especially with the young.
There is plenty more wrong with Tesla, especially the model 3. It looks rubbish as a car design, bland and boring and not fresh either. It looks like a very old design.
Actually I think you are spot on with that. My kids hate him.There is plenty more wrong with Tesla, especially the model 3. It looks rubbish as a car design, bland and boring and not fresh either. It looks like a very old design.
barryrs said:
I’ve decided to get myself an EQC which should be more than adequate for my needs 95% of the time.
The car I have purchased was bought in by the main dealer for £57k and they spent £1k prepping it. I have just purchased it for £40k (£50k rrp) as Mercedes are offering a £9k deposit contribution and I got £1k of further discount and prep with no clawback on early settlement!
That’s an £8k loss on the car plus a £9k sweetener!
It’s not though is it? What is the wholesale price? Even at wholesale price it’s not a loss. What is the cost price? Only if it’s below cost is it a loss. The car I have purchased was bought in by the main dealer for £57k and they spent £1k prepping it. I have just purchased it for £40k (£50k rrp) as Mercedes are offering a £9k deposit contribution and I got £1k of further discount and prep with no clawback on early settlement!
That’s an £8k loss on the car plus a £9k sweetener!
Mercedes are moving to an agency model with their dealers where the dealers are paid to prep and deliver cars rather than take the retail margin.
craigjm said:
It’s not though is it? What is the wholesale price? Even at wholesale price it’s not a loss. What is the cost price? Only if it’s below cost is it a loss.
Mercedes are moving to an agency model with their dealers where the dealers are paid to prep and deliver cars rather than take the retail margin.
If a dealer pays a customer £57k for a stock car on a trade in but sells it for £50k I would call that a loss.Mercedes are moving to an agency model with their dealers where the dealers are paid to prep and deliver cars rather than take the retail margin.
List on new £80k.
barryrs said:
I’ve decided to get myself an EQC which should be more than adequate for my needs 95% of the time.
The car I have purchased was bought in by the main dealer for £57k and they spent £1k prepping it. I have just purchased it for £40k (£50k rrp) as Mercedes are offering a £9k deposit contribution and I got £1k of further discount and prep with no clawback on early settlement!
That’s an £8k loss on the car plus a £9k sweetener!
This just proves how f****** up the EV market is at the moment. In all my years of car buying I have never seen a £9k deposit contribution on a USED car. You are lucky to get that of a new car at the moment, never mind used. Indie dealers trying to sell these at full price must be crapping themselves.The car I have purchased was bought in by the main dealer for £57k and they spent £1k prepping it. I have just purchased it for £40k (£50k rrp) as Mercedes are offering a £9k deposit contribution and I got £1k of further discount and prep with no clawback on early settlement!
That’s an £8k loss on the car plus a £9k sweetener!
CG2020UK said:
Surely but as Tesla’s are just white goods it’s not hard to fathom that people will spend extra to drive something with a nicer interior or is better to drive.
I think the majority of car manufacturers will be fine.
Not if they can't get their costs down they won't. On current figures Tesla will always have more money to invest in new product and be able to grab market share on a whim with predatory prices. I think the majority of car manufacturers will be fine.
I have no idea what is special about a £40k Megane or a nigh on £40k Vauxhall Astra.
Chipper said:
Actually I think you are spot on with that. My kids hate him.
I’m 27 (Like to think I’m still young) and I’m the only one of my circles who actually likes a Tesla.Everyone else actively hates them with comments on how cheap and old they look, they are driven by old white men or they are a cult.
Little Lofty said:
This just proves how f****** up the EV market is at the moment. In all my years of car buying I have never seen a £9k deposit contribution on a USED car. You are lucky to get that of a new car at the moment, never mind used. Indie dealers trying to sell these at full price must be crapping themselves.
Agreed, absolutely nuts.They are also offering 0% on a new one but I wouldn’t touch one knowing they are effectively buying sales on used cars!
Chipper said:
Tesla has mastered the EV production and have a massive advantage in profit per car they sell which is only going to escalate as their production costs come down further. How have other manufacturers caught up ? Ford are now selling at a loss every Mach E trying to compete with Tesla who are still making healthy profits. Renault CEO has said it’s terrible how Tesla have reduced their prices for their customers but really it’s because they can’t compete. Even Toyota have just done a tear down on a model Y and have stated the level of engineering and manufacturing in a model Y is highly impressive and they will have to think of an entirely new way to manufacture their cars.
Want to know why you can only get £1300 off an id3 . Because VW can’t afford to compete. And don’t think they are selling well because nobody wants to touch a new id3 now ( my friend works in sales at a large vw dealership group )
Since the production Tesla have supposedly reduced the manufacturing cost of a model 3 by 30%! Let me repeat that . 30% reduction costs on the model 3 have already been achieved and they are now stating they will have a 50 % reduction on the new platform. Their profit margins is supposedly more than double than any other EV vehicle and that’s before you even contemplate that they are getting profit from add on such as their subscription, performance upgrades (or what ever they are called ) and their self driving packs.
I’m going to repeat that again because I don’t actually think people understand this. If Tesla can retail cars now , undercut every manufacturer pricing by 20% and still make a very good profit and nobody can compete unless they sell their cars at a loss , THEN W@F are the Legacy manufacturers going to do in I would guess less than two years when Tesla launch the model 2 which is going to be a further 50% CHEAPER TO MANUFACTUER?
What we are all seeing is akin to watching the high street collapse with the rise of the internet and Apple launching the iPhone when Nokia ( VW ) Blackberry (Renault ) were about. Think all those shiny dealerships with all those staff will be around in ten years? BMW and Mercedes are already ditching dealerships to guess what - copy Tesla in purchasing online. Just look at Taycan owners getting a bill for £1100 for their first service. The writing is on the wall for those charges.
I get the hate , I get that people don’t like Musk , some don’t like the look of them and some people don’t like change but Christ, if I have to hear or see another stupid thread about “ they are too expensive “ - “ I can’t drive to Cornwall to my second home “ and the fact for some dumb reason people seem to think charging your car at home is a nightmare so you wake up with a full tank (see what I did there ) when you can be stuck at a petrol station for 10 minutes spending a fortune each week is for some reason more enjoyable is beyond me.
Enjoy the fact you can now go and purchase a used model 3 for between £20000 and £25000 that will smash most cars with their insane acceleration, are still immensely cheap to run and have more technology than any other vehicle out there. fundamentally though,, and this is all imo. It’s going to be Tesla and the Chinese that are going to shape the future in the car industry.
You keep using phrases like 'I'll say it again, I'll repeat so you understand...'Want to know why you can only get £1300 off an id3 . Because VW can’t afford to compete. And don’t think they are selling well because nobody wants to touch a new id3 now ( my friend works in sales at a large vw dealership group )
Since the production Tesla have supposedly reduced the manufacturing cost of a model 3 by 30%! Let me repeat that . 30% reduction costs on the model 3 have already been achieved and they are now stating they will have a 50 % reduction on the new platform. Their profit margins is supposedly more than double than any other EV vehicle and that’s before you even contemplate that they are getting profit from add on such as their subscription, performance upgrades (or what ever they are called ) and their self driving packs.
I’m going to repeat that again because I don’t actually think people understand this. If Tesla can retail cars now , undercut every manufacturer pricing by 20% and still make a very good profit and nobody can compete unless they sell their cars at a loss , THEN W@F are the Legacy manufacturers going to do in I would guess less than two years when Tesla launch the model 2 which is going to be a further 50% CHEAPER TO MANUFACTUER?
What we are all seeing is akin to watching the high street collapse with the rise of the internet and Apple launching the iPhone when Nokia ( VW ) Blackberry (Renault ) were about. Think all those shiny dealerships with all those staff will be around in ten years? BMW and Mercedes are already ditching dealerships to guess what - copy Tesla in purchasing online. Just look at Taycan owners getting a bill for £1100 for their first service. The writing is on the wall for those charges.
I get the hate , I get that people don’t like Musk , some don’t like the look of them and some people don’t like change but Christ, if I have to hear or see another stupid thread about “ they are too expensive “ - “ I can’t drive to Cornwall to my second home “ and the fact for some dumb reason people seem to think charging your car at home is a nightmare so you wake up with a full tank (see what I did there ) when you can be stuck at a petrol station for 10 minutes spending a fortune each week is for some reason more enjoyable is beyond me.
Enjoy the fact you can now go and purchase a used model 3 for between £20000 and £25000 that will smash most cars with their insane acceleration, are still immensely cheap to run and have more technology than any other vehicle out there. fundamentally though,, and this is all imo. It’s going to be Tesla and the Chinese that are going to shape the future in the car industry.
Edited by Chipper on Saturday 11th March 11:46
Yet you fail to listen yourself
Do you know anything about marketing/branding?
Tesla, to hit 20m cars or whatever, need to transition from a desirable brand to the bargain brand. That is both difficult and risky. You can go broke on a transition like that.
People spend more than they really need to on houses, cars, watches, clothes, groceries, holidays etc etc.
Moving their brand from desirable to budget is risky.
Price is hugely important. Its clear you understand that. However you fail to understand the rest of the very complex nature of the consumer.
The amazing Tesla story is actually over already. You can come back and ram this down my throat in 12 months if you want to put a note in your diary or something. But it's over. They've peaked.
They've already exhausted all the low hanging fruit. If you want to touch every postcode/zipcode on the planet, like VW for example, that'll cost a small fortune to get that market penetration. Tesla bulls forecast it will happen, but they haven't worked out the cost.
I seen the very same story with Ocado here in the UK. New kid on the block. Got all the low hanging fruit but once you try and scale to reach every postcode, the business model falls apart somewhat, and you risk losing money due to the opex increases against a flat revenue model. They lost £500m this year and a share price graph that looks very much like Tesla. People ranted and raved how good Ocado was and here we are, they are now nursing huge loses on their precious stock prediction.
There is no magic wand to defeat these facts. Tesla need to go to many more countries to find growth and it's just not as easy when you step outside US, China and Europe.
Ask yourself why Tesla cut China/US/Europe prices instead of using surplus volume to expand into other countries. Any thoughts as to why? They could have kept prices higher, made more profit per vehicle yet bizarrely, chose not to. If that's not an alarm bell, I don't know what is.
confused_buyer said:
Not if they can't get their costs down they won't. On current figures Tesla will always have more money to invest in new product and be able to grab market share on a whim with predatory prices.
I have no idea what is special about a £40k Megane or a nigh on £40k Vauxhall Astra.
Let’s not kid ourselves all car manufacturers will have healthy margins on cars they produce it’s just how the have to account for costs eg:R&D that gets the media saying they aren’t making money.I have no idea what is special about a £40k Megane or a nigh on £40k Vauxhall Astra.
If they didn’t make money on a model they wouldn’t sell the model simple as that.
What we are all seeing is the legacy motors literally dying in front of our eyes. They can’t ramp up production to match Tesla . Jesus they can’t even do a wireless update on a vehicle ! I don’t doubt there are a lot of people who don’t like them but the fact you have an id3 st £40000 shows they are so bloody stuffed . In a few months they will have to reduce prices AT A LOSS to get rid of stock. This is before Tesla launches their new platform which is 50 % cheaper to manufacturer!!!
500TORQUES said:
Is Tesla really what young people want? After his foolishness with Twitter he has lost a lot of support, especially amongst the young and engaged. He isn't cool anymore, he's is seen as an arse, and that hurts brands, especially with the young.
There is plenty more wrong with Tesla, especially the model 3. It looks rubbish as a car design, bland and boring and not fresh either. It looks like a very old design.
From what I've seen, a resounding yes. There is plenty more wrong with Tesla, especially the model 3. It looks rubbish as a car design, bland and boring and not fresh either. It looks like a very old design.
Quite depressing from an enthusiast POV. They're the new white Audi A4, another trend I never really got.
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