EVs... no one wants them!

[monkfish1]

Unreal said:

Muzzer79 said:

Wills2 said:

The reality is "not everyone wants them!" rather than no one

Amen to that.

Wills2 said:

currently around 85% of new car buyers don't want them and the vast majority of the 15% that do are being incentivised to want them, if the government were serious about making everyone want them (they should be) they would offer the same incentives to everyone (in equivalence)

But those rubbishing EVs on this thread are not doing so for the lack of financial incentives.

We're being told that it's to do with range, speed of charging, lack of suitability for their lifestyle.

Logic therefore dictates that they would always argue that EVs aren't suitable, no matter the incentives.

Logic does not dictate that at all.

Numerous people, including myself, have posted how they would be happy to replace an ICE vehicle with an EV but they don't want to pay tens of thousands or sign up to a monthly lease to do that. The single thing that will dramatically change the landscape is the availability of second hand EVs that are priced at a level that makes giving up the old reliable ICE vehicle a no brainer.

Whilst depreciation on EVs will help, that supply is going to be limited if the new cars are perceived to be too expensive and have have too many shortcomings. 15% filtering down isn't going to lead to replacement. There won't be enough cars to replace the old ICE vehicles which if anything will help to maintain values.

What would transform the market and turbocharge uptake is the availability of cheap EVS and if the cars aren't that cheap, take all the incentives away from the wealthier segment of society and spread it around the lowest levels.

Agree that Muzzer79 is spouting drivel.

Like you, ive said several times on here, when it makes financial sense, id replace the wifes corsa with an EV. It doesnt come close to making financial sense, so i dont.

There are no financial incentives for normal people as you observe. Just huge quantities of cash/tax benefits sprayed around at those who can afford one anyway. Hence autotrader cluttered up with Taycans!

[ACCYSTAN]

I was in a Toyota dealership trying to do a deal on an electric Toyota Proace city verso MPV electric

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/proace-city-vers...

They offered me a whole £1300 off for cash of a list price of £37,100

In what world is anyone buying a rebadged electric Berlingo MPV for £35,800?!

On the PCP quote over 4 years and 8k a year, it had a Guaranteed future value of £14,100
That’s some serious depreciation

Edited by ACCYSTAN on Tuesday 30th April 22:14

[GeneralBanter]

Mikebentley said:

cj2013 said:

GeneralBanter said:

‘No one wants them’’:

https://theconversation.com/electric-cars-pile-up-...

Article is based 100% on referencing https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/11/unsold-chines... which then is based 100% on https://jalopnik.com/tesla-settles-fatal-autopilot... which is based totally on a FT article, which is based heavily on the quote:

one car supply chain manager said:

“Chinese EV makers are using ports like car parks,” said one car supply chain manager.

So Ports are busy, claims "one car supply chain manager"

And the picture in the article clearly shows South Korean cars so likely Jack all to do with China. GeneralBanter should change his username to GeneralBullstter

No need to get out of your pram over it, I have relayed exactly what the article said and if you don’t like it or desperately need to believe someone else who is telling you what you want to hear it’s up to you. I’ve read exactly the same from several other sources over the last week.

[Mikebentley]

Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.

[GeneralBanter]

Mikebentley said:

Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.

Warranted until when and what for though? And how much is the replacement when Vauxhall decline to give the owner a new one?

[LivLL]

romft123 said:

sunnyb13 said:

Someone talk me out of a used kona electric. They seem such good value for money

early ones are too small

I hadn't realised how cheap they had got. A facelift 2023 small battery one for £16k seems pretty good!

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202402266...

[nickfrog]

monkfish1 said:

Agree that Muzzer79 is spouting drivel.

Like you, ive said several times on here, when it makes financial sense, id replace the wifes corsa with an EV. It doesnt come close to making financial sense, so i dont.

There are no financial incentives for normal people as you observe. Just huge quantities of cash/tax benefits sprayed around at those who can afford one anyway. Hence autotrader cluttered up with Taycans!

From memory, the lack of alternative for the Corsa was down to your low budget / price point. It stands to reason that used EV choice at that price point is limited so far. Which doesn't mean that the situation is the same at other price points for obvious reasons, ie the relative recency of used EVs where there is a significant incentive. Think 3 year old e-208 or e-2008 at £12k and £14k respectively, which make really interesting alternative for "normal people".

[monkfish1]

nickfrog said:

monkfish1 said:

Agree that Muzzer79 is spouting drivel.

Like you, ive said several times on here, when it makes financial sense, id replace the wifes corsa with an EV. It doesnt come close to making financial sense, so i dont.

There are no financial incentives for normal people as you observe. Just huge quantities of cash/tax benefits sprayed around at those who can afford one anyway. Hence autotrader cluttered up with Taycans!

From memory, the lack of alternative for the Corsa was down to your low budget / price point. It stands to reason that used EV choice at that price point is limited so far. Which doesn't mean that the situation is the same at other price points for obvious reasons, ie the relative recency of used EVs where there is a significant incentive. Think 3 year old e-208 or e-2008 at £12k and £14k respectively, which make really interesting alternative for "normal people".

You remember correctly. But Muzzer79 was stating that people who didnt want an EV would continue to say that even if there were financial incentives. Just pointing out that statement is bks, to put it bluntly.

Not looking to "re-argue" about the price point issue.

I dont want an EV because i cant afford one.

[Fox-]

Some of them do seem quite good value as used purchases now.

Edited by Fox- on Tuesday 30th April 23:08

[monkfish1]

Mikebentley said:

Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.

You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?

Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".

I think most would disagree.

The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.

[irc]

monkfish1 said:

There are no financial incentives for normal people as you observe. Just huge quantities of cash/tax benefits sprayed around at those who can afford one anyway. Hence autotrader cluttered up with Taycans!

This is very much where I am. I drive a Volvo EV at work. A nice drive. Get a dry empty motorway and put the foot down and the acceleration is out of this world. I prefer the seats in my Skoda or the Seat Atecas we also have at work. In actual use the diesl auto Atecas and the Volvos are both good to drive - a mix of mainly urban with short motorway stretches.

It comes down to cash for me. I do regular long trips from Glasgow to the northwest highlands. I usually stop for a snack at either Inverness or Fort William. 30 minutes or so. Maybe twice a month. If an EV meant I needed to stop for an hour to get the range to get to my final destination and back to FW/Inveness no big deal. It is twice a month.

The rest of my driving bar a trip to SE England a couple of times a year could be done by home charging.

Our ICE cars are 6 years and 3 years old. So I plan to keep then a few years yet. No way will I buy a new EV at current prices as a private buyer out of after tax income. So hopefully the huge depreciation continues. I would buy one at the right price taking into account - purchase price - and balancing running costs against convenience. Probably go to one ICE and one EV and switch more of our joint local miles to the EV.

[Fastdruid]

heebeegeetee said:

Fastdruid said:

12000 miles/year is roughly 10000 more than I'd put on it.

Roughly 26p/mile in depreciation alone and I'd only be saving 27p/mi in fuel. Add the 3p/mile (assuming 10p/kWh and 3.3 Mi/kWh) and it's costing 29p to save 27p.

Obviously then have all the other costs of running a second vehicle (mot & insurance).

Edited by Fastdruid on Tuesday 30th April 17:15

Not sure about your depreciation per mile. There's the savings of 720+ gallons of fuel v overnight charging. Pretty certain he was getting more than 3.3 mi/kwh but I'll ask again at the pub Thursday. Having passengered in it, it was a perfectly comfortable, quiet and civilised ride. Much nicer than his Golf R, in which he always has to pay the hooligan. .

Plus nobody broke into his house for the keys to the Leaf.

Er I'm not talking about him I'm talking about me. Your mate is irrelevant to my buying an EV.

I'll do the maths for you.

Bought it for £10k, sold it for £8.4k. That's £1.6k over three years.

If I'd bought it then I would do at most 2k per year so 6k in total.

£1600 / 6000 = £0.26.

OutInTheShed said:

A few years back was bonkers, my cousin made a profit on a diesel golf.

I have two mates with Leaves.
First one, bought for about £6k four years ago.
Used intensely for 3 years, typically 60 miles a day. Saving about £1500 a year in diesel.
So now it's worth buttons but who cares?

Indeed, point is that I'm not doing 60 miles a day. Most days I barely do 6.

Absolutely *perfect* for an EV from a usage case...just not from a financial one if you're looking at savings with fuel.

[heebeegeetee]

monkfish1 said:

Mikebentley said:

Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.

You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?

Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".

I think most would disagree.

The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.

Aren't Mokkas really cheap, like low miles 2021 models for £13-£15k?

[heebeegeetee]

Fastdruid said:

Indeed, point is that I'm not doing 60 miles a day. Most days I barely do 6.

Absolutely *perfect* for an EV from a usage case...just not from a financial one if you're looking at savings with fuel.

Maybe, like my mate, you find it so incredibly easy to use, inc it being warmed up on winter mornings, plus never visiting filling stations, never taking it for service, and so on, that like him you suddenly find you're clocking far more miles than ever anticipated. Plus, if you're doing less miles your depreciation will be less, and the depreciation on your other cars that your not using will be less too.

He was surprised at how little he found himself driving his Golf R, and pleased at not putting 10k miles per annum on it.

[FiF]

heebeegeetee said:

monkfish1 said:

Mikebentley said:

Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.

You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?

Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".

I think most would disagree.

The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.

Aren't Mokkas really cheap, like low miles 2021 models for £13-£15k?

Problem is early EV Mokkas have a bad rep on reliability.

[Mikebentley]

heebeegeetee said:

monkfish1 said:

Mikebentley said:

Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.

You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?

Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".

I think most would disagree.

The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.

Aren't Mokkas really cheap, like low miles 2021 models for £13-£15k?

Who mentioned buying a new car? All older cars were once new it’s how it works. People’s budgets will always determine what they buy. I would suggest a 6/7 yr old EV would be no worse than a similarly aged ICE. At least the drivetrain will be less vulnerable to being driven without mechanical sympathy.

[Mikebentley]

GeneralBanter said:

Mikebentley said:

cj2013 said:

GeneralBanter said:

‘No one wants them’’:

https://theconversation.com/electric-cars-pile-up-...

Article is based 100% on referencing https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/11/unsold-chines... which then is based 100% on https://jalopnik.com/tesla-settles-fatal-autopilot... which is based totally on a FT article, which is based heavily on the quote:

one car supply chain manager said:

“Chinese EV makers are using ports like car parks,” said one car supply chain manager.

So Ports are busy, claims "one car supply chain manager"

And the picture in the article clearly shows South Korean cars so likely Jack all to do with China. GeneralBanter should change his username to GeneralBullstter

No need to get out of your pram over it, I have relayed exactly what the article said and if you don’t like it or desperately need to believe someone else who is telling you what you want to hear it’s up to you. I’ve read exactly the same from several other sources over the last week.

No still in my pram. What you are doing is just relaying poorly written clickbait. I don’t need to believe anyone because guess what I’m finding out for myself.” All JLR stuff is crap because the internet says so” well 2 Range Rovers and a New Defender and never a single issue. “All EVs are rubbish and EVs no one wants them” first EV MG4 was poor quality but still a good tool at the price, new Smart #1 is fantastic. What I’m saying in answer to you is exercise some fee thought. If you don’t want to believe others with EV experience then don’t as it appears an EV isn’t for you.

[ACCYSTAN]

ACCYSTAN said:

I was in a Toyota dealership trying to do a deal on an electric Toyota Proace city verso MPV electric

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/proace-city-vers...

They offered me a whole £1300 off for cash of a list price of £37,100

In what world is anyone buying a rebadged electric Berlingo MPV for £35,800?!

On the PCP quote over 4 years and 8k a year, it had a Guaranteed future value of £14,100
That’s some serious depreciation

Edited by ACCYSTAN on Tuesday 30th April 22:14

I forgot to add, when I went to see if I could get a deal on the Peugeot Rifter facelift version of this vehicle they do not know the official range of the battery on this car.

As it’s a facelift model with improved tech it’s not yet been tested.
How can they sell a car without knowing its range?

They quoted me the old figure of 167 miles range but said this one should be signed off for 199 miles it’s awaiting official testing.

I find it bizarre, you couldn’t sell a 1.5 petrol VW golf and assume the mpg.

Even more strange, these rebadged Berlingos are all the same but have different range quotes.

Peugeot Rifter - 191 miles (tbc)
Toyota ProAce city verso - 172 miles
Vauxhall combo life - 199 miles (tbc)
Citroen Berlingo - 198 miles (tbc, possibly longer if add heat pump option)

Stellantis are all over the place

[cptsideways]

heebeegeetee said:

monkfish1 said:

Mikebentley said:

Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.

You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?

Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".

I think most would disagree.

The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.

Aren't Mokkas really cheap, like low miles 2021 models for £13-£15k?

Technical glitches that can't be DIY fixed & out of warranty from a brand who are known for not helping their dealers fix problems for the customer. Potential disaster awaiting.

[caseys]

sunnyb13 said:

Someone talk me out of a used kona electric. They seem such good value for money

So my other half has a 72 plate Kona ultimate. 2 years now and she always makes me drive when we’re both in the car.

I also have owned an i3 and have a Tesla currently. Had an id3 very briefly. And have had a dabble with a Taycan. So got a broad ish experience of EVs..

Pros of her Kona:
It can be Tesla levels of efficient. Easily get 4.8-5.0m/kwh in summer
64kwh battery makes it a great value for money regarding range
The heated and vented seats are good, but could be better bolstered and hip support
It’s got CarPlay (wired)
Lights, auto lights and auto high beam are good
Auto wipers are far better than in my Tesla
Sunroof is nice
Smart cruise control for distance / hazards is better than my Tesla’s false alarm rate
It’s well sprung and damped. Far less crashy
It’s got a large washer fluid reservoir
It must have a top buffer on the battery as it’ll still even at 100% state of charge
You can fit a tow bar to it and iirc tow 650kg.

And now apologies for the long list of Cons…
The steering is extremely vague
The throttle response has a strange lag to it in every drive mode
Each drive mode just shortens or lengthens the pedal travel for the power delivery. Doesn’t improve response or delivery. Even on eco it doesn’t use more than half the pedal travel to deploy WOT (does an EV have WOT?)
Torque deployment is horribly lacking in progression. Dry or wet traction dead straight is awful. Checked what tyres it came with (Michelin pilot sport 4)
The boot is remarkably small and shallow.
No frunk
The centre storage in the cabin is an awful bridge design and inefficient
The two cup holders are different sized (one small) for no apparent reason as the dash has space to make both the same diameter.
It remembers no driving settings. So every time I get in I have to change 7-8 things so it isn’t trying to auto drive,
Auto lane keep, be in eco mode and have all the “old people” type settings on.
It’s got for some bizarre reason a green car symbol on the main cluster. This symbol is there to tell you the car is fine to drive. Even when you’re driving. The inverse of a main warning light.
The speed limit display is pointless and cannot be trusted. For instance today’s 30mph was displayed as a 110mph zone.
The user interface is remarkably counter intuitive
Regen is weak. And defaults to the weakest setting every time. It cannot be altered if you’re braking and forgot to set it to your preferred setting.
Mirrors don’t auto dip on reverse. Even when other Hyundai do.
Displays dim to night mode even in the day. This cannot be switched off or changed.
It forgets the scheduled charging very often and randomly. Meaning you have to go through a few menus to check it and set it.
Autohold is incredibly grabby on the brakes on activation and release.
No creep/hold/coast setting. So got to constantly dab the brakes in stop start traffic (no one pedal driving).
Stupidly short service interval (10k miles).
It takes a big hit efficiency wise in the winter compared to my Tesla (this Kona doesn’t have the heat pump)
2022 car with a 2016 charging curve. It can hit 85kw but I’ve seen that twice for maybe 90 seconds or so.
No battery pre-heat when navigating to a charger or at all I think so on average we’re charging 35-60kw
Steering column position means you’ll miss your knees when they’re gone..
Climate control could be better
Car fogs up quite a bit compared to other cars in similar situations.
No over the air updating.
TPMS seems to feel that -15psi from recommended minimum isn’t anything to warn you about - so I guess it’ll only warm you if it’s flat.
Qi wireless charging pad is spacious but it’s very hit and miss to position it
Lights on anything but the lowest height setting cause a lot of folk to think you have full beam on and flash you for it.
Central locking is extremely infuriating. When you stop and get out all the doors are unlocked on the inside but not from the outside. So you have to press the unlock button to get anyone/anything out. Includes the boot and charge port locked when you get out.
There is a stupid stop/start engine button. If you forget to press the “off” button when you get out and close the door it will not lock the car.
The smartphone app… yeah…. At least you can pre-heat the car in it. Pre heat will only go for 10 mins. And stop if you unlock it.
You cannot schedule pre-heat.
As it’s seen as an “old person” car (like the jazz, juke etc) you will find less people will let you out and more people will bully you as a road user compared to other cars. Then people will be surprised when you drive off the line at anything but a snails pace.

I’m sure there’s more. But I don’t want my blood pressure high.

Edit : I forgot one. It appears that the roof rails are in fact decorative. My friend who has a family run 40 year business that fits tow bars and ergo sells bike carriers, roof bars etc cannot find any for it.
Edit 2: the reverse cam is laggy. There is also a stupid hazard assist when reversing which slams the brakes on over falsely perceived hazards many times. Cannot turn this off and it’s the one “safety aid” that I think one day will in fact cause an accident. But this is Hyundai specific rather than anything to do with an EV. I imagine the ICE Kona has it too.

We’ve done 23k miles in 17 months she’s had it.

Edited by caseys on Wednesday 1st May 08:22

Edited by caseys on Wednesday 1st May 08:45