EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
monkfish1 said:
People will need to take themselves and the car elsewhere, taking significant addtional time from their lives and families, and to pay 10 times higher price for the energy than those with a drive. Mostly, people who can least afford it. It will come to a head in due course, when the supply of ICE vehicles dwindles and those people face some difficult issues. It will, inevitably, become a political hot potato. Ive no idea how it will pan out at that point though.
Clean Air Zones are charging users of older non compliant cars already. £9 a day in Bristol. An oldish (2014 diesel) ICE is already costing the least well off and there doesn't seem to be much of an uprising against it here.BrownBottle said:
Ankh87 said:
braddo said:
What?! 
That solution is ridiculously simple - connect cable to house, lay the cable in the trough, connect cable to car. Next morning, disconnect cable and put inside car or house.
Those charging cables are worth money, no-one is going to leave them out when not in use (unless they are complete idiots). Most people won't need to charge more than once per week.
There will need to be a bit of collective thinking about how to manage on-street parking and for apartment car parks. These are not problems that threaten the viability of EVs.
Also, there are hundreds of thousands of terraced houses in the UK that are worth £1m+. This is not about the poor being neglected in the EV transition...
On-street parking isn't as simple as you think it is. Everyone wants to park outside their home regardless if they have one or multiple cars. I've seen it first hand where even those who have this issue and have one car per household, there's still not enough on-street parking. Cars are having to be parked on the next street. That solution is ridiculously simple - connect cable to house, lay the cable in the trough, connect cable to car. Next morning, disconnect cable and put inside car or house.
Those charging cables are worth money, no-one is going to leave them out when not in use (unless they are complete idiots). Most people won't need to charge more than once per week.
There will need to be a bit of collective thinking about how to manage on-street parking and for apartment car parks. These are not problems that threaten the viability of EVs.
Also, there are hundreds of thousands of terraced houses in the UK that are worth £1m+. This is not about the poor being neglected in the EV transition...
When it comes to on-street parking, you'll find that people are not reasonable or rational about this at all. Even now, where there isn't really a need to be parked outside their house as they are not charging their cars. This isn't going to change in the future, if anything it's going to be far worse. Especially when cars are parked just that 2 meters further down, making all the other cars further down, meaning the cable won't reach. Or if someone goes from say a small hatchback to a big long Skoda Superb. Stupid things like that have a knock on effect.
Just like now, when I go to the in-laws if I want to be parked on their street, then I take a risk because there is no off-street parking at all. So I take the partners tiny Kia because I know that if there is a space, it's usually just big enough for that car. If I take mine then every time I go to the in-laws I have to park 2 streets away because that's where there is space. It's a complete pain.
What it comes down to is that people are selfish and really do not give a hoot.
I would like to add, that even digging up the path just to lay this cable is going to cost at least £500. That's before even paying to have the thing installed.
Ankh87 said:
Going to be fun isn't it when someone is using the charger outside your house and you have to park 2 streets away. They then throw it to one side with little care and it gets damaged.
Council then tell you, you need to pay for it as the charger is outside your house and it's your responsibility.
I assume you mean the AC cable that you take with you with the car, why would you throw it to one side and leave it?Council then tell you, you need to pay for it as the charger is outside your house and it's your responsibility.
Unplug it, and chuck it in your boot.
Don't get the obsession with on street charging at home. Do people currently have oil refineries at home and petrol pumps in their front garden? Obviously not.
Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
On street parking tends (but not always) to be in more urban areas where people may (but not necessarily) do shorter journeys.
For those people charging at a public charger once a week while they do their shopping, visit a gym, go to the cinema, or whatever, would be all they need.
Granted it's more expensive per kwh, but won't be forever.
My charging habit is now twice weekly. I commute on a Wednesday. Car gets plugged in on a Tue night, then after i get home on a Wed night. It then only goes through 30%-50% or so between Thu and the next Tue.
Horses for courses as always though.
Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
On street parking tends (but not always) to be in more urban areas where people may (but not necessarily) do shorter journeys.
For those people charging at a public charger once a week while they do their shopping, visit a gym, go to the cinema, or whatever, would be all they need.
Granted it's more expensive per kwh, but won't be forever.
My charging habit is now twice weekly. I commute on a Wednesday. Car gets plugged in on a Tue night, then after i get home on a Wed night. It then only goes through 30%-50% or so between Thu and the next Tue.
Horses for courses as always though.
LowTread said:
Don't get the obsession with on street charging at home. Do people currently have oil refineries at home and petrol pumps in their front garden? Obviously not.
Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
On street parking tends (but not always) to be in more urban areas where people may (but not necessarily) do shorter journeys.
For those people charging at a public charger once a week while they do their shopping, visit a gym, go to the cinema, or whatever, would be all they need.
Granted it's more expensive per kwh, but won't be forever.
My charging habit is now twice weekly. I commute on a Wednesday. Car gets plugged in on a Tue night, then after i get home on a Wed night. It then only goes through 30%-50% or so between Thu and the next Tue.
Horses for courses as always though.
this. very much this!Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
On street parking tends (but not always) to be in more urban areas where people may (but not necessarily) do shorter journeys.
For those people charging at a public charger once a week while they do their shopping, visit a gym, go to the cinema, or whatever, would be all they need.
Granted it's more expensive per kwh, but won't be forever.
My charging habit is now twice weekly. I commute on a Wednesday. Car gets plugged in on a Tue night, then after i get home on a Wed night. It then only goes through 30%-50% or so between Thu and the next Tue.
Horses for courses as always though.
now, in 2024 the charging technology and infrastructure isn''t perfect. in reality EVs have only really been around in numbers for 5 years, so there's no chance of there being a mature charging infrastructure. the rate of improvement is amazing, and by the end of the decade what we have today will seem very outdated.
is there a full list of solutions, costings, etc today? nope. but some very clever people and very large companies are working on it.
LowTread said:
Don't get the obsession with on street charging at home. Do people currently have oil refineries at home and petrol pumps in their front garden? Obviously not.
Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
Spurious argument as petrol/diesel can add 100's of miles of range in < 5 minutes, filling stations are everywhere and you'll rarely find one broken or blocked for an extended period. Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
5 year EV owner here that covers 10k miles per year of mostly short trips. if for some reason I couldn't home charge going forward then I'd be back in ICE in a heartbeat as would reverse two of the primary benefits (convenience, running costs) and turn them into drawbacks. I'd be gutted as think they're a great option for the kind of trips we do and prefer the driving experience.
Of course, this is also affected by where I live having only 1 choice of 100kW+ rapid charger within a 20 mile radius, and not much liking the idea spending an hour or more a week sat in a McDonalds car park..
BrownBottle said:
Ankh87 said:
braddo said:
What?!
That solution is ridiculously simple - connect cable to house, lay the cable in the trough, connect cable to car. Next morning, disconnect cable and put inside car or house.
Those charging cables are worth money, no-one is going to leave them out when not in use (unless they are complete idiots). Most people won't need to charge more than once per week.
There will need to be a bit of collective thinking about how to manage on-street parking and for apartment car parks. These are not problems that threaten the viability of EVs.
Also, there are hundreds of thousands of terraced houses in the UK that are worth £1m+. This is not about the poor being neglected in the EV transition...
On-street parking isn't as simple as you think it is. Everyone wants to park outside their home regardless if they have one or multiple cars. I've seen it first hand where even those who have this issue and have one car per household, there's still not enough on-street parking. Cars are having to be parked on the next street. That solution is ridiculously simple - connect cable to house, lay the cable in the trough, connect cable to car. Next morning, disconnect cable and put inside car or house.
Those charging cables are worth money, no-one is going to leave them out when not in use (unless they are complete idiots). Most people won't need to charge more than once per week.
There will need to be a bit of collective thinking about how to manage on-street parking and for apartment car parks. These are not problems that threaten the viability of EVs.
Also, there are hundreds of thousands of terraced houses in the UK that are worth £1m+. This is not about the poor being neglected in the EV transition...
When it comes to on-street parking, you'll find that people are not reasonable or rational about this at all. Even now, where there isn't really a need to be parked outside their house as they are not charging their cars. This isn't going to change in the future, if anything it's going to be far worse. Especially when cars are parked just that 2 meters further down, making all the other cars further down, meaning the cable won't reach. Or if someone goes from say a small hatchback to a big long Skoda Superb. Stupid things like that have a knock on effect.
Just like now, when I go to the in-laws if I want to be parked on their street, then I take a risk because there is no off-street parking at all. So I take the partners tiny Kia because I know that if there is a space, it's usually just big enough for that car. If I take mine then every time I go to the in-laws I have to park 2 streets away because that's where there is space. It's a complete pain.
What it comes down to is that people are selfish and really do not give a hoot.
I would like to add, that even digging up the path just to lay this cable is going to cost at least £500. That's before even paying to have the thing installed.
SWoll said:
LowTread said:
Don't get the obsession with on street charging at home. Do people currently have oil refineries at home and petrol pumps in their front garden? Obviously not.
Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
Spurious argument as petrol/diesel can add 100's of miles of range in < 5 minutes, filling stations are everywhere and you'll rarely find one broken or blocked for an extended period. Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
5 year EV owner here that covers 10k miles per year of mostly short trips. if for some reason I couldn't home charge going forward then I'd be back in ICE in a heartbeat as would reverse two of the primary benefits (convenience, running costs) and turn them into drawbacks. I'd be gutted as think they're a great option for the kind of trips we do and prefer the driving experience.
Of course, this is also affected by where I live having only 1 choice of 100kW+ rapid charger within a 20 mile radius, and not much liking the idea spending an hour or more a week sat in a McDonalds car park..
But your point of spending time, at macdonalds car park or similar for some time, be it an hour a week or 5 surrisingly has no appeal. Those proposing it as a solution, are of course those who wont need to do it.
And as EV numbers grow, you will have a charging "rush hour", which either means more time waiting or going out to charge later in the evening. (and probably losing your parking space at home/near home to)
The key here, as i said, are most of those saying its a solution are those with the luxury of a driveway.
DSLiverpool said:
79p a kw just paid makes 30p a mile fuel cost. Not surprised nobody wants for long private journeys
I took my Tesla on a fairly long trip to visit some friends yesterday evening. The journey home required a stop to charge due to poor planning on my part. An accident and road closures meant I was diverted from my normal route, and I didn't have enough charge in reserve to make it home. The car's built in sat nav dealt with it seamlessly, and told me when to stop and for how long so I could make it home. As a backup I had my energy provider's charging map and RFID card (which works across most major networks and charges back to my energy bill). I plugged in to a Supercharger, the car dealt with everything, and 10 minutes later I was on my way, relieved of a few quid, with a coffee in hand. It was no more stressful than seeing the fuel light come on in an unfamiliar part of the world. I do worry how some folk cope with stress if that's such a big issue for them.
I think the argument is that all of us spend a regular predictable amount of time at various establishments.
Whether that’s an hour at a supermarket, in which case a 50kW rate of charge will be sufficient, or 20 minutes at a convenience store, for which you might want a 250kW rate, there’s enough ‘dead’ time already to meet most people’s charging needs.
All that is now needed is a way of reducing the cost by, for example, integrating your public charging with your home electricity tarrif assuming that natural competition between public providers is not fierce enough.
It may never be as cheap as the rates available to wealthier folk with off street parking and home charging (and solar panels on the roof of their gazebo etc…) but as long as it’s at least comparable or a bit cheaper than petrol then that’s possibly enough.
Who complains that the rich are unfairly advantaged in not having to pay for a residents on street parking permit?
This seems far more attractive than draping cables across pavements and fighting for a parking space outside your house surely.
Whether that’s an hour at a supermarket, in which case a 50kW rate of charge will be sufficient, or 20 minutes at a convenience store, for which you might want a 250kW rate, there’s enough ‘dead’ time already to meet most people’s charging needs.
All that is now needed is a way of reducing the cost by, for example, integrating your public charging with your home electricity tarrif assuming that natural competition between public providers is not fierce enough.
It may never be as cheap as the rates available to wealthier folk with off street parking and home charging (and solar panels on the roof of their gazebo etc…) but as long as it’s at least comparable or a bit cheaper than petrol then that’s possibly enough.
Who complains that the rich are unfairly advantaged in not having to pay for a residents on street parking permit?
This seems far more attractive than draping cables across pavements and fighting for a parking space outside your house surely.
monkfish1 said:
SWoll said:
LowTread said:
Don't get the obsession with on street charging at home. Do people currently have oil refineries at home and petrol pumps in their front garden? Obviously not.
Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
Spurious argument as petrol/diesel can add 100's of miles of range in < 5 minutes, filling stations are everywhere and you'll rarely find one broken or blocked for an extended period. Yes, charging at home is handy, especially for higher mileages and more rural locations, but it's not essential.
5 year EV owner here that covers 10k miles per year of mostly short trips. if for some reason I couldn't home charge going forward then I'd be back in ICE in a heartbeat as would reverse two of the primary benefits (convenience, running costs) and turn them into drawbacks. I'd be gutted as think they're a great option for the kind of trips we do and prefer the driving experience.
Of course, this is also affected by where I live having only 1 choice of 100kW+ rapid charger within a 20 mile radius, and not much liking the idea spending an hour or more a week sat in a McDonalds car park..
But your point of spending time, at macdonalds car park or similar for some time, be it an hour a week or 5 surrisingly has no appeal. Those proposing it as a solution, are of course those who wont need to do it.
And as EV numbers grow, you will have a charging "rush hour", which either means more time waiting or going out to charge later in the evening. (and probably losing your parking space at home/near home to)
The key here, as i said, are most of those saying its a solution are those with the luxury of a driveway.
Mark V GTD said:
Dave200 said:
I took my Tesla on a fairly long trip to visit some friends yesterday evening.
Yes but its a Tesla so it does all that you said. Any other EV would be a lot more stressful!740EVTORQUES said:
I think the argument is that all of us spend a regular predictable amount of time at various establishments.
Whether that’s an hour at a supermarket, in which case a 50kW rate of charge will be sufficient, or 20 minutes at a convenience store, for which you might want a 250kW rate, there’s enough ‘dead’ time already to meet most people’s charging needs.
All that is now needed is a way of reducing the cost by, for example, integrating your public charging with your home electricity tarrif assuming that natural competition between public providers is not fierce enough.
It may never be as cheap as the rates available to wealthier folk with off street parking and home charging (and solar panels on the roof of their gazebo etc…) but as long as it’s at least comparable or a bit cheaper than petrol then that’s possibly enough.
Who complains that the rich are unfairly advantaged in not having to pay for a residents on street parking permit?
This seems far more attractive than draping cables across pavements and fighting for a parking space outside your house surely.
I really like the idea of a nationalised charging network, with a common billing and cost structure. A combination of lamp post and destination charging would be sufficient for the vast majority.Whether that’s an hour at a supermarket, in which case a 50kW rate of charge will be sufficient, or 20 minutes at a convenience store, for which you might want a 250kW rate, there’s enough ‘dead’ time already to meet most people’s charging needs.
All that is now needed is a way of reducing the cost by, for example, integrating your public charging with your home electricity tarrif assuming that natural competition between public providers is not fierce enough.
It may never be as cheap as the rates available to wealthier folk with off street parking and home charging (and solar panels on the roof of their gazebo etc…) but as long as it’s at least comparable or a bit cheaper than petrol then that’s possibly enough.
Who complains that the rich are unfairly advantaged in not having to pay for a residents on street parking permit?
This seems far more attractive than draping cables across pavements and fighting for a parking space outside your house surely.
Merry said:
KingGary said:
Good isn't it? An EV will run on Petrol, or Diesel.Or coal, nuclear, sunlight, wind or hydro. Anything you can generate electricity with.
How's that for energy security? I know what I'd be choosing in an end of days mad max situation.
That wasn't your point though was it?
Dave200 said:
Mark V GTD said:
Dave200 said:
I took my Tesla on a fairly long trip to visit some friends yesterday evening.
Yes but its a Tesla so it does all that you said. Any other EV would be a lot more stressful!I'm about 9 months in to EV ownership and only done a few long trips needing public charging. I've yet to find myself in a situation where there isn't another network better suited than Tesla for my needs whether that's because of where it is on my route or having better facilities nearby. I concede that this is very area and journey dependent though as charger distribution is variable
Dave200 said:
Mark V GTD said:
Dave200 said:
I took my Tesla on a fairly long trip to visit some friends yesterday evening.
Yes but its a Tesla so it does all that you said. Any other EV would be a lot more stressful!Ok, so you wouldn't buy a Leaf 24 if you had regular trips like that, but most people who do local commuting, week in week out, will have a trip as you describe sometimes,
plfrench said:
The same as disabled bays outside houses in the street are now? One per house marked up to sit in the same location as the Kerbo. It's a natural extension on from residents parking permits I guess.
There are plenty of streets around here where parking is on one side only. Bit awkward for those living on the wrong side.https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4003129,-1.3324369...
monkfish1 said:
And as EV numbers grow, you will have a charging "rush hour", which either means more time waiting or going out to charge later in the evening. (and probably losing your parking space at home/near home to)
We saw how the public behaved with fuel shortages, even though there was enough to go around people would top up “just in case” and empty the pumps and create huge queues. I can see people getting so worried of running their batteries down to the point they need to charge, keeping them topped up to avoid the risk of not being able to charge and get to work, or have an emergency they need the car for and not risk waiting for it to charge. Probably all irrational but people are!Dave200 said:
Luxury, by definition, is something that's not available to the masses. Yet the majority of households in the UK have off-street parking where it would be possible to install a charger. The majority of households in the UK would be absolutely fine to get an EV were it not for the disinformation and scaremongering. The average annual household mileage is 7,000, which equates to a very manageable daily average of 20 miles. Most EVs doing the average mileage or below wouldn't even need to be charged weekly. It's really not the big issue you're making it out to be. That's a huge audience for whom EVs are completely viable today with barely any change to their lifestyle.
I also believe EVs will work for the majority. Which is all you need in a democracy. I also believe that the private transport landscape will change significantly and it will be less available to those in urban areas by design. Political parties won’t wish to be seen removing the option but all seem signed up to the vision so I don’t see an alternative. Whilst the majority may be able to easily switch to EVs and home charging a large chunk of people will see transport change significantly in my view.Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff