EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
cptsideways said:
heebeegeetee said:
monkfish1 said:
Mikebentley said:
Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.
You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".
I think most would disagree.
The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.
heebeegeetee said:
monkfish1 said:
Mikebentley said:
Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.
You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".
I think most would disagree.
The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.
Fastdruid said:
Indeed, point is that I'm not doing 60 miles a day. Most days I barely do 6.
Absolutely *perfect* for an EV from a usage case...just not from a financial one if you're looking at savings with fuel.
Arguably, someone who does less than 6 miles a day on most days has no financial justification for owning a vehicle full stop.Absolutely *perfect* for an EV from a usage case...just not from a financial one if you're looking at savings with fuel.
The main criminality with EVs that will change the low-usage affordability aspect is the government's decision to VED the arse out of them. Not just £0 to a token £20 (like they did with Diesels and will continue to do so for a lot of them still on the road), but to lump EVs in the reasonably mild emissions-based bracket.
For a use case of someone with low usage who might still pay £28pcm in VED, and perhaps £70 a month in fuel on an older vehicle, allowing £50 a month to maintain, there could be a stronger argument for an EV on finance 'paying for itself' - but I'm sure Rishi's gang will try and keep them away from the working class by taxing them across the board even more
cj2013 said:
Fastdruid said:
Indeed, point is that I'm not doing 60 miles a day. Most days I barely do 6.
Absolutely *perfect* for an EV from a usage case...just not from a financial one if you're looking at savings with fuel.
Arguably, someone who does less than 6 miles a day on most days has no financial justification for owning a vehicle full stop.Absolutely *perfect* for an EV from a usage case...just not from a financial one if you're looking at savings with fuel.
Edited by Fastdruid on Wednesday 1st May 09:29
heebeegeetee said:
cptsideways said:
heebeegeetee said:
monkfish1 said:
Mikebentley said:
Surely the biggest incentive is cheap electricity to charge the car. That’s available to anyone with the ability to home charge. There are loads of 2020 Corsa EVs available for less than a petrol 2020 Corsa. There is no excuse other than fear and paranoia not to buy the EV. The EV drivetrain (battery) is even still warrantied.
You do know that not everyone buys a new car, be that through choice or lack of financial means?Lack of financial means is rather a significant impediment, though clearly you think its just an "excuse".
I think most would disagree.
The electricity could be free, but if you cant fund the £30k to buy it, its rather acedemic.
Though having said that the Peugeot e-208 has had some questionable issues. Which for anyone thinking of the VX Astra EV estate is concerning, and once again suggests the leasing route rather than outright purchase.
Fastdruid said:
Most days not all days. Other days it does 100 miles, or 300. One day earlier this year 550miles.
The point being that you could justify renting/public transport for those.By the time someone's paid VED, insurance, purchase cost, fuel, maintenance.... there's a threshold to where vehicle ownership is not financially logic regardless of propulsion means.
monkfish1 said:
Unreal said:
Muzzer79 said:
Wills2 said:
The reality is "not everyone wants them!" rather than no one
Amen to that.Wills2 said:
currently around 85% of new car buyers don't want them and the vast majority of the 15% that do are being incentivised to want them, if the government were serious about making everyone want them (they should be) they would offer the same incentives to everyone (in equivalence)
But those rubbishing EVs on this thread are not doing so for the lack of financial incentives.We're being told that it's to do with range, speed of charging, lack of suitability for their lifestyle.
Logic therefore dictates that they would always argue that EVs aren't suitable, no matter the incentives.
Numerous people, including myself, have posted how they would be happy to replace an ICE vehicle with an EV but they don't want to pay tens of thousands or sign up to a monthly lease to do that. The single thing that will dramatically change the landscape is the availability of second hand EVs that are priced at a level that makes giving up the old reliable ICE vehicle a no brainer.
Whilst depreciation on EVs will help, that supply is going to be limited if the new cars are perceived to be too expensive and have have too many shortcomings. 15% filtering down isn't going to lead to replacement. There won't be enough cars to replace the old ICE vehicles which if anything will help to maintain values.
What would transform the market and turbocharge uptake is the availability of cheap EVS and if the cars aren't that cheap, take all the incentives away from the wealthier segment of society and spread it around the lowest levels.
Like you, ive said several times on here, when it makes financial sense, id replace the wifes corsa with an EV. It doesnt come close to making financial sense, so i dont.
There are no financial incentives for normal people as you observe. Just huge quantities of cash/tax benefits sprayed around at those who can afford one anyway. Hence autotrader cluttered up with Taycans!
If these posters say that an EV will miraculously suit their requirements if they're cheaper, I will happily stand corrected.
Ankh87 said:
A car should be able to go from Newcastle to Dover without multiple stops shouldn't it? 400 miles is relatively nothing and a car should be able to go one end of England to the other. Otherwise it's a backwards step, might as well get a horse and cart.
Why does a family car like an Insignia have a 70L tank when it could do with a 20 or 30? In fact, why aren't we all going back to horse and cart seem as hte average jorney in the UK is less than 20 miles a day. Horse can easily do that.
Why does a family car like an Insignia have a 70L tank when it could do with a 20 or 30? In fact, why aren't we all going back to horse and cart seem as hte average jorney in the UK is less than 20 miles a day. Horse can easily do that.
Ankh87 said:
GeneralBanter said:
All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:
1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
That's it. Until an EV can do that then many will not want to change. Some people might not be bothered about that but it seems most are. 1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
Why waste so much money on a used Mokka just to get on the EV bandwagon? Just buy something slightly older and ICE.
Why be a beta tester for some technology that isn't full developed yet.
You could get a year or two older golf with a petrol engine that will do 50mpg for about ten grand and pocket the rest for fuel bills which will give you 25-30000 miles before it costs the same as the EV not to mention the residuals will be a lot stronger so will most likely be closer to 40000 miles when factoring that in.
Why be a beta tester for some technology that isn't full developed yet.
You could get a year or two older golf with a petrol engine that will do 50mpg for about ten grand and pocket the rest for fuel bills which will give you 25-30000 miles before it costs the same as the EV not to mention the residuals will be a lot stronger so will most likely be closer to 40000 miles when factoring that in.
FiF said:
Another may be better informed on this but my impression is that the early Mokka-E was based on Vauxhall developed kit. Later iteration brought in the Stellantis drivetrain used across other models. The earlier Vauxhall developed setup is the cause of the Mokka poor rep on reliability.
Though having said that the Peugeot e-208 has had some questionable issues. Which for anyone thinking of the VX Astra EV estate is concerning, and once again suggests the leasing route rather than outright purchase.
Mekka EV was always a stellantis product. Though having said that the Peugeot e-208 has had some questionable issues. Which for anyone thinking of the VX Astra EV estate is concerning, and once again suggests the leasing route rather than outright purchase.
I did some quick sums on a basic Corsa EV vs Petrol. Both 2021 models, both with around 35k on the clock.
Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
cj2013 said:
Fastdruid said:
Most days not all days. Other days it does 100 miles, or 300. One day earlier this year 550miles.
The point being that you could justify renting/public transport for those.By the time someone's paid VED, insurance, purchase cost, fuel, maintenance.... there's a threshold to where vehicle ownership is not financially logic regardless of propulsion means.
Evanivitch said:
FiF said:
Another may be better informed on this but my impression is that the early Mokka-E was based on Vauxhall developed kit. Later iteration brought in the Stellantis drivetrain used across other models. The earlier Vauxhall developed setup is the cause of the Mokka poor rep on reliability.
Though having said that the Peugeot e-208 has had some questionable issues. Which for anyone thinking of the VX Astra EV estate is concerning, and once again suggests the leasing route rather than outright purchase.
Mekka EV was always a stellantis product. Though having said that the Peugeot e-208 has had some questionable issues. Which for anyone thinking of the VX Astra EV estate is concerning, and once again suggests the leasing route rather than outright purchase.
Zj2002 said:
I compare my car to its ICE equivalent. Therefore the EV costs less to run and own that it’s equivalent ICE - BMW m3 on this occasion.
A bit pedantic but this is a motoring enthusiast forum after all, there is no EV M equivalent to an M3/M4. The M Division freely admit that won’t come until the next generation of EV architects due in the next couple of years and we will see what the engineers come out with.It is a big challenge but should be exciting to see what can be achieved with electrification in terms of driving dynamics beyond the raw performance which seems easy now.
There will be old school drivers like me who mourn the loss of ICE and the sounds and feel but many enthusiasts have gone through that to some degree with the downsizing of cylinder count. It is the future.
We aren’t there yet and in some cases like the M3 if that is what you desire from a pure driving experience there won’t be alternative EVs. These are very small use cases, most of us even a driving enthusiasts would accept that M Performance is all we would ever want (and more) from a car but it is worth recognising valid reasons why some would not see it as equivalent. Many potential M3/M4 purchasers wouldn’t consider the running cost savings as a tipping point, the cars are too different.
Tony33 said:
bit pedantic but this is a motoring enthusiast forum after all, there is no EV M equivalent to an M3/M4. The M Division freely admit that won’t come until the next generation of EV architects due in the next couple of years and we will see what the engineers come out with.
It is a big challenge but should be exciting to see what can be achieved with electrification in terms of driving dynamics beyond the raw performance which seems easy now.
There will be old school drivers like me who mourn the loss of ICE and the sounds and feel but many enthusiasts have gone through that to some degree with the downsizing of cylinder count. It is the future.
We aren’t there yet and in some cases like the M3 if that is what you desire from a pure driving experience there won’t be alternative EVs. These are very small use cases, most of us even a driving enthusiasts would accept that M Performance is all we would ever want (and more) from a car but it is worth recognising valid reasons why some would not see it as equivalent. Many potential M3/M4 purchasers wouldn’t consider the running cost savings as a tipping point, the cars are too different.
How many people on this forum own a car in the same category as an M3? I bet it's a fairly small percentage.It is a big challenge but should be exciting to see what can be achieved with electrification in terms of driving dynamics beyond the raw performance which seems easy now.
There will be old school drivers like me who mourn the loss of ICE and the sounds and feel but many enthusiasts have gone through that to some degree with the downsizing of cylinder count. It is the future.
We aren’t there yet and in some cases like the M3 if that is what you desire from a pure driving experience there won’t be alternative EVs. These are very small use cases, most of us even a driving enthusiasts would accept that M Performance is all we would ever want (and more) from a car but it is worth recognising valid reasons why some would not see it as equivalent. Many potential M3/M4 purchasers wouldn’t consider the running cost savings as a tipping point, the cars are too different.
I'm an enthusiast, but my cars have consisted of Astras, clio, 3 series, skoda, rovers, mg's. I guess I should leave the forum.
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Wednesday 1st May 10:18
TheBinarySheep said:
I did some quick sums on a basic Corsa EV vs Petrol. Both 2021 models, both with around 35k on the clock.
Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
This is not very useful Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
- you don’t know future electric and petrol prices
- electric Corsa is nearly double the insurance
- electric Corsa battery going wrong will be hideously expensive
- electric Corsa battery degradation will be a big issue for resale value
ACCYSTAN said:
This is not very useful
You could apply that to every decision you make though. - you don’t know future electric and petrol prices
- electric Corsa is nearly double the insurance
- electric Corsa battery going wrong will be hideously expensive
- electric Corsa battery degradation will be a big issue for resale value
You don't know the resale value of an ICE in 5+ year time, how do you know ICE prices are not going to plummet? You don't. You can only make decisions based on the information available to you at the time.
I can only imagine that petrol prices and ICE tax is only going to go one way, and it's not down.
I got a price for a petrol and EV Cora.
Petrol £284
EV £349
23% more expensive, that's not double.
Corsa-e battery has a warranty of 100,000 miles or 8 years. If you buy three year old and get rid after five year, that's the warranty period, so you're good.
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Wednesday 1st May 10:27
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Wednesday 1st May 10:27
ACCYSTAN said:
This is not very useful
- you don’t know future electric and petrol prices
- electric Corsa is nearly double the insurance
- electric Corsa battery going wrong will be hideously expensive
- electric Corsa battery degradation will be a big issue for resale value
- you don't know future electric and petrol insurance prices
- you don't know future battery repair prices
- you don't know future battery degradation rates
- you don't know future fuel prices (at any one point we're an international conflict away from price gouging)
- Petrol Corsa engine, gearbox and the smorgasbord of sensors going wrong is, objectively, anything but cheap
TheBinarySheep said:
Tony33 said:
bit pedantic but this is a motoring enthusiast forum after all, there is no EV M equivalent to an M3/M4. The M Division freely admit that won’t come until the next generation of EV architects due in the next couple of years and we will see what the engineers come out with.
It is a big challenge but should be exciting to see what can be achieved with electrification in terms of driving dynamics beyond the raw performance which seems easy now.
There will be old school drivers like me who mourn the loss of ICE and the sounds and feel but many enthusiasts have gone through that to some degree with the downsizing of cylinder count. It is the future.
We aren’t there yet and in some cases like the M3 if that is what you desire from a pure driving experience there won’t be alternative EVs. These are very small use cases, most of us even a driving enthusiasts would accept that M Performance is all we would ever want (and more) from a car but it is worth recognising valid reasons why some would not see it as equivalent. Many potential M3/M4 purchasers wouldn’t consider the running cost savings as a tipping point, the cars are too different.
How many people on this forum own a car in the same category as an M3? I bet it's a fairly small percentage.It is a big challenge but should be exciting to see what can be achieved with electrification in terms of driving dynamics beyond the raw performance which seems easy now.
There will be old school drivers like me who mourn the loss of ICE and the sounds and feel but many enthusiasts have gone through that to some degree with the downsizing of cylinder count. It is the future.
We aren’t there yet and in some cases like the M3 if that is what you desire from a pure driving experience there won’t be alternative EVs. These are very small use cases, most of us even a driving enthusiasts would accept that M Performance is all we would ever want (and more) from a car but it is worth recognising valid reasons why some would not see it as equivalent. Many potential M3/M4 purchasers wouldn’t consider the running cost savings as a tipping point, the cars are too different.
I'm an enthusiast, but my cars have consisted of Astras, clio, 3 series, skoda, rovers, mg's. I guess I should leave the forum.
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Wednesday 1st May 10:18
I'd put money on the fact I've had more fun in my £400 MX5 than the 99% of M3 and M4 owners have since I bought it circa 15 years ago.
Being an enthusiast often has sweet FA to do with the latest and greatest M product that does nothing more than the weekly commute. Same with stuff like 911's where it's mostly about resale and cupping the local OPC DP in the hope they'll let you have something with an RS badge on. That's why it's so refreshing when you see a RR thread about a 996 with 200k on the clock who's more of an enthusiast than anyone with a 500 mile GT4RS.
Rant over.
TheBinarySheep said:
ACCYSTAN said:
This is not very useful
You could apply that to every decision you make though. You don't know the resale value of an ICE in 5+ year time, how do you know ICE prices are not going to plummet? You don't. You can only make decisions based on the information available to you at the time.- you don’t know future electric and petrol prices
- electric Corsa is nearly double the insurance
- electric Corsa battery going wrong will be hideously expensive
- electric Corsa battery degradation will be a big issue for resale value
I got a price for a petrol and EV Cora.
Petrol £284
EV £349
23% more expensive, that's not double.
Interestingly, the EV will still have manufacturers battery warranty remaining at the end of the fictional 5 years, the ICE won't be covered at all.
I wonder what the difference in servicing costs is between the ICE and EV versions of the same car?
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