Cheapest V8 2 seater?

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Belle427 said:

They are perfectly fine in the dry with good tyres, they can become a bit sketchy in the wet but that’s understandable.
I’ve seen instances of people saying the cars can snatch a little when they get out of shape and grip again maybe due to weight/diff behaviour.
I’ve owned both a Chimaera and a Mk 1 Mx5 and if you offered me the keys of both for a spirited b road drive I’d be in the Mazda every time.

Edited by Belle427 on Tuesday 14th March 07:25

And you would take the MX5 over the TVR exactly because of the TVR tendencies of wanting to run away from you?

Have you driven Corvettes? That is a level of "wildness" I think is still fun in a sports car.

But a sports car where you have to be constantly worried and careful if you try to drive fast or push it is not a sports car. It's a badly designed and badly balanced car with a powerful engine. Maybe behavior acceptable for a muscle car. I know the Viper is supposed to be that way. But I never heard anybody saying it's a good sports car.

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FHCNICK said:

CM2020 said:

I mean the pop up headlights models. Ok, so maybe I'm just looking for info in the wrongs places. But I asked here a few times about how easy or hard is to put a Rover V8 in a V6 TVR with pop up headlights, but nobody knew, or answered. I'm also not on FB. Never did the FB thing really.

The chassis on the V6 cars is too narrow in the engine bay to take a RV8 without modification but why would you want to? There are more V8 engined cars out there to start with and these are available from resto project status up to A1 condition so why go to the bother of shoe horning a V8 into a V6?

Ok, I guess I should have been saying wedge TVR rather than 80s TVR. But I asked because I came across somebody selling a V6 wedge TVR with a bad or blown engine, for cheap. So if it was an easy drop in for the Rover V8, I thought it could be a very cheap way into a manual V8 2 seater.

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Belle427 said:

Not really it’s just the Mx5 is so beautifully balanced and feels nimble whereas the Tvr doesn’t.
Never driven a corvette but have always loved them.
Open flowing roads the Tvr is great and has always been seen as a bit of a GT car tbh.

All of them are supposed to be GTs then and not true sports cars? I can see the Cerbera being a GT. But Sagaris, T350C, Griffith? The 80s wedges? I would have though these would or should be sports cars. But if I'm wrong, my misconception then.

MX5 is nearly the perfect weekend car. If it only had a bit more grunt and sounded any good. I know about all the swaps etc. But really not looking for a frankenstein car and all the effort and expense of getting there and staying there.

Edited by CM2020 on Tuesday 14th March 10:42

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cerb4.5lee said:

CM2020 said:

FHCNICK said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I was only saying it as a bit of fun, and I was just alluding to the Cerb staying straight and not crashing, whereas the 2 seater binned it that's all.

that is from one of the crazy dutch tvrcc infamous Zolder track days I believe

I think it does show how much of a hand full these cars are though?

I remember mine snapping out on me once in the rain on my way back from work. Hardly any throttle and it just decided that it wanted to go sideways on me! I'd been driving it for about 18 miles so it wasn't like the tyres were cold or anything like that. You do have to respect the throttle and they definitely keep you on your toes at times. They involve you in the driving experience even at slow speeds, and there aren't many cars that do that I reckon.

I love driving involvement. But at which point it stops being involvement and becomes just you desperately trying to compensate for the car's incompetence?

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CABC said:

it's not a binary question. It's one of feel, balance and feedback as well as confidence to push.
I agree with Belle, that the mx5 is a better B road blaster than a Chim. as well as power, it's mostly torque that can give TVRs that 'sudden' breakaway feeling. Funny thing is that the Elise beats both and yet you wouldn't want to be 10/10 on a public road. Just feels great at 9.5 and it tells you what is 9.5 or 9.7 quite well.

How many people would drive a 911 at full pelt with electronics disengaged? That would be a shocking experience to most I suspect, though a modern 911 is certainly well balanced and manageable compared to rear drive beasts of old.

So what would you say a wedge TVR is? 7/10? 8/10?

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coldel said:

CM2020 said:

All of them are supposed to be GTs then and not true sports cars? I can see the Cerbera being a GT. But Sagaris, T350C, Griffith? The 80s wedges? I would have though these would or should be sports cars. But if I'm wrong, my misconception then.

MX5 is nearly the perfect weekend car. If it only had a bit more grunt and sounded any good. I know about all the swaps etc. But really not looking for a frankenstein car and all the effort and expense of getting there and staying there.

Edited by CM2020 on Tuesday 14th March 10:42

Throw a BBR tune or similar at one? Even 30bhp extra on a lightweight car transforms it?

Ok, but how will it solve they sounding so unexciting? And if turbo, only makes it sound worse IMO.

All this just makes me think of how fun it could have been if Mercedes made a V8 R171 with a manual and a rag top. Just goes to confirm germans don't know how to party. They have been spoiling the party since the 80s now, with all but just the very expensive cars being any kind of fun lately.

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coldel said:

CM2020 said:

Ok, but how will it solve they sounding so unexciting? And if turbo, only makes it sound worse IMO.

All this just makes me think of how fun it could have been if Mercedes made a V8 R171 with a manual and a rag top. Just goes to confirm germans don't know how to party. They have been spoiling the party since the 80s now, with all but just the very expensive cars being any kind of fun lately.

They do plenty of non turbo upgrades, the BBR 200 option for the mk3 MX5 adds around 45bhp and a decent exhaust can add some sound. Yes its not a V8 but in terms of driving nirvana its a good way to take the already good MX5 up another level.

I need a V8 or at the very least a very satisfying V6. Pity the Alfa V6 was never in anything worthwhile.

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cerb4.5lee said:

CM2020 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

CM2020 said:

FHCNICK said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I was only saying it as a bit of fun, and I was just alluding to the Cerb staying straight and not crashing, whereas the 2 seater binned it that's all.

that is from one of the crazy dutch tvrcc infamous Zolder track days I believe

I think it does show how much of a hand full these cars are though?

I remember mine snapping out on me once in the rain on my way back from work. Hardly any throttle and it just decided that it wanted to go sideways on me! I'd been driving it for about 18 miles so it wasn't like the tyres were cold or anything like that. You do have to respect the throttle and they definitely keep you on your toes at times. They involve you in the driving experience even at slow speeds, and there aren't many cars that do that I reckon.

I love driving involvement. But at which point it stops being involvement and becomes just you desperately trying to compensate for the car's incompetence?

The longer wheelbase/very quick steering still makes it controllable in the Cerb if you have some experience with RWD cars though I think(plus the chassis is predictable generally and you can mostly feel what it is going to do). I had 4 years in a mildly tuned S14 200SX before the Cerb so that helped loads for me as well. I did however struggle to get used to the Z4M Roadster that I had though, and that was a spiky so and so for me in comparison to the 200SX/Cerb for sure.

Edited by cerb4.5lee on Tuesday 14th March 11:54

I see what you mean now. Unfortunately a Cerbera and its engine is not something I really want to run.
Huge part of my initial no TVRs was exactly thinking about the speed6 and other non Rover TVRs.

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CABC said:

You need 2 cars.
It’s what I did and didn’t stop at 2.

Actually I only need one. A V8 manual 2 seats.

Although this will be car number 2 anyways.

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Shifter1 said:

CM2020 said:

CABC said:

You need 2 cars.
It’s what I did and didn’t stop at 2.

Actually I only need one. A V8 manual 2 seats.

Although this will be car number 2 anyways.

Give the C4 idea a shot then. They are fun and will be way more reliable and easier to run than any TVR. If that doesn't do it, you can always decide to go for a TVR later. But the Corvette exists exactly for this reason. They are the perfect fit for needs like yours. V8, manual, not heavy and no European car can match the performance for the money. They mop the floor with European cars costing twice what they do.

Indeed. This is exactly what I'm thinking about doing. Although I have not fully ruled out a C5. I much prefer the C4 for its looks and interior design. But if a good C5 for a good price is found along the way, I will also consider it.

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Zumbruk said:

CM2020 said:

coldel said:

CM2020 said:

Ok, but how will it solve they sounding so unexciting? And if turbo, only makes it sound worse IMO.

All this just makes me think of how fun it could have been if Mercedes made a V8 R171 with a manual and a rag top. Just goes to confirm germans don't know how to party. They have been spoiling the party since the 80s now, with all but just the very expensive cars being any kind of fun lately.

They do plenty of non turbo upgrades, the BBR 200 option for the mk3 MX5 adds around 45bhp and a decent exhaust can add some sound. Yes its not a V8 but in terms of driving nirvana its a good way to take the already good MX5 up another level.

I need a V8 or at the very least a very satisfying V6. Pity the Alfa V6 was never in anything worthwhile.

Rocketeer.

I really don't feel like swaps and that type of thing. But thanks.

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Shifter1 said:

KTMsm said:

Shifter1 said:

Give the C4 idea a shot then.


no European car can match the performance for the money.

They mop the floor with European cars costing twice what they do.

That's just rubbish

I prefer Japanese cars but there are plenty of European cars that offer similar performance per pound

On an NSL if I was in BMW 330i I'd be surprised if a typical C4 stayed with me, there is no way it would lose me and a 330 probably costs half as much as a C4

You need to first, compare like to like. BMW from C4's time. Second, obviously compare new prices. Used car prices have zero credibility. Or rusty old Fords would never cost what they do. And it was also clearly obvious I was talking about Corvettes, rather than only C4, which should have made even more clear I was talking new prices. And new prices, there is nothing from Europe that gives you the same performance for the price. This has always been the Corvette's thing.

Edited by Shifter1 on Wednesday 15th March 10:53

I never got the feeling you were talking about the C4 in particular. I thought you were talking about the Corvette as a line.

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CABC said:

OP said V8, cheapest and added sports car driving appeal.
I know Chimearas are not the last word in sports car handling, but what cheap V8 beats it??

irreconcilable requirements.
Answer is a Chimeara and an MX5.

What if I don't want the potential hassle of running a TVR? Or an under powered roadster? Can there be other alternatives or there can be only the ones you present? I find the attitude quite rude if I may say so myself.

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KTMsm said:

As I said, and has been confirmed by others, none of the cars have snap oversteer

Any rear wheel drive car can catch out someone who can't drive

The more power it has and particularly if it has an LSD, the easier it is for a bad driver to crash it

I have explained that I wasn't particularly talking about snap oversteer and that maybe snap was a poor choice of words. The assumption that dangerous cars only catch people who can't drive is interesting. I wonder why there are crashes in F1 or why famous good drivers spin and crash. Maybe if we could drop the personal attacks it would be more useful?

I didn't make up the idea that TVRs are badly built, badly engineered, dangerous to drive cars built in a shed. It could be that all of it is a lie and everybody is wrong about that. But this is not my personal opinion. It's a general consensus of sorts. So you can't blame somebody for being skeptical in taking the risk, when it's his own money.

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ChocolateFrog said:

Belle427 said:

They are perfectly fine in the dry with good tyres, they can become a bit sketchy in the wet but that’s understandable.
I’ve seen instances of people saying the cars can snatch a little when they get out of shape and grip again maybe due to weight/diff behaviour.
I’ve owned both a Chimaera and a Mk 1 Mx5 and if you offered me the keys of both for a spirited b road drive I’d be in the Mazda every time.

Edited by Belle427 on Tuesday 14th March 07:25

So have I.

MX5 for 10/10ths driving.
Chim for everything else.

I think that if you have the option to have several cars to cover all bases, it becomes much easier. That's a nice position to be in for sure. But not everybody is in that position. Most can't even justify 2 cars. As it is, this is going to be my car number 2 and car number 3 in the household. Adding an extra car would be pushing beyond what is currently possible.

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KTMsm said:

Shifter1 said:

LOL, do I have to teach you how to read plain English? A man has to know when to concede.

But you didn't misquoted me for nothing. I'm sure you are well aware that once I mentioned "the Corvette", it was clear I wasn't talking about only C4. But Corvette as a model in general. Just plain English.

Anyway, life is too short to be arguing on the internet with some stranger. So have a nice life.

For the record, regardless of price, give me a C4 any day over a boring saloon like a 330i.

And yet you carry on arguing instead of admitting you were wrong

As you are choosing a C4 over a 330i as the sales numbers demonstrate

I would also rather have a C4 over a 330i. What is a 330i? It's a regular car you see in every traffic light. This is about a weekend car.

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braddo said:

The context of C4 and 330i was about the C4 blowing european cars into the weeds (at current prices).

Regardless I would still prefer the C4 over 330i. BMW saloons bore me. Nothing special about them. C4 if you want to compare needs to be compared to Z3, at least.

braddo said:

To the OP - 'fun to drive' is a key criteria for you but you're making decisions without driving any. You might not like how a C4 drives. I would believe it when others said much earlier that the C5 is a big step on from the C4 and that is likely to include driving enjoyment (which is different from enjoying cruising around and what the car looks like).

I thought I had mentioned before that I did drive the Corvettes before. The C5 is fast, but feels much bigger on the road. Gives me a somewhat more GT vibe, even if the interior is not GT like at all, as it feels and looks cheap. It's a Corvette.

C4 is plenty fast for legal speeds. You will still get in trouble with it if you are not careful. I don't think I will track the car. Not often anyways. I much prefer the looks of the C4 and to sit in it feels more special than C5. C5 interior is so normal looking. C4 still has a somewhat 80's supercar look to the interior. Sure it's still a 80's American interior. But looks nice and is interesting to be in. Driving position is also lower than C5 if I remember correctly. I think they made the C5 driving position higher, to please the older men who were buying the cars. If you look around quite a few people seem to share this opinion. Many will still put the C4 down. But many share the opinion it's somehow more fun or more of an event than a C5.

In the end, C4 is plenty fun, plenty capable of more than just cruising, looks better, has a more exciting interior and is still fast enough for a classic weekend road car. And let's not forget, it's a Corvette. Sky is the limit with upgrades. Cheap ones too in comparison. Talking to people online in America who own both C5 and C4, they say C4 can be made to go with C5 no problem. You just need to spend the money. LS fits too.

But as I said, I don't care about that. I just want a fun car, which can take B roads with some spirit, sounds great, looks great, feels great and eventful to sit in and gives me a V8, RWD and manual without breaking the bank. I'm past the age of feeling I need to have the fastest car on the road. I will be 40 in a few years.

There is no perfect option. But C4 seems the best fitting. TVRs can look great on photos. But I just saw a wedge up close and oh boy. People complain about fit and finish in American cars. But that was dreadful to look at. Like nothing belonged together or something.

[CM2020]

DodgyGeezer said:

CM2020 said:

KTMsm said:

Shifter1 said:

LOL, do I have to teach you how to read plain English? A man has to know when to concede.

But you didn't misquoted me for nothing. I'm sure you are well aware that once I mentioned "the Corvette", it was clear I wasn't talking about only C4. But Corvette as a model in general. Just plain English.

Anyway, life is too short to be arguing on the internet with some stranger. So have a nice life.

For the record, regardless of price, give me a C4 any day over a boring saloon like a 330i.

And yet you carry on arguing instead of admitting you were wrong

As you are choosing a C4 over a 330i as the sales numbers demonstrate

I would also rather have a C4 over a 330i. What is a 330i? It's a regular car you see in every traffic light. This is about a weekend car.

indeed, for my money the BM wouldn't even make the starting gate. Stretch that to 2+2 coupes and there'd still not be a BM in sight

I thought about the 2+2 to open it up a bit. But that would probably bring the weight up, and cut down on the fun of sitting almost over the rear wheels. So I decided to stick to the purism of my initial criteria. But I did consider opening it to 6 cylinders and something like a Z3 coupe came to mind. But still, it would be a different feeling of a car. So I think I will give a C4 a go first.

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Shifter1 said:

CM2020 said:

braddo said:

The context of C4 and 330i was about the C4 blowing european cars into the weeds (at current prices).

Regardless I would still prefer the C4 over 330i. BMW saloons bore me. Nothing special about them. C4 if you want to compare needs to be compared to Z3, at least.

braddo said:

To the OP - 'fun to drive' is a key criteria for you but you're making decisions without driving any. You might not like how a C4 drives. I would believe it when others said much earlier that the C5 is a big step on from the C4 and that is likely to include driving enjoyment (which is different from enjoying cruising around and what the car looks like).

I thought I had mentioned before that I did drive the Corvettes before. The C5 is fast, but feels much bigger on the road. Gives me a somewhat more GT vibe, even if the interior is not GT like at all, as it feels and looks cheap. It's a Corvette.

C4 is plenty fast for legal speeds. You will still get in trouble with it if you are not careful. I don't think I will track the car. Not often anyways. I much prefer the looks of the C4 and to sit in it feels more special than C5. C5 interior is so normal looking. C4 still has a somewhat 80's supercar look to the interior. Sure it's still a 80's American interior. But looks nice and is interesting to be in. Driving position is also lower than C5 if I remember correctly. I think they made the C5 driving position higher, to please the older men who were buying the cars. If you look around quite a few people seem to share this opinion. Many will still put the C4 down. But many share the opinion it's somehow more fun or more of an event than a C5.

In the end, C4 is plenty fun, plenty capable of more than just cruising, looks better, has a more exciting interior and is still fast enough for a classic weekend road car. And let's not forget, it's a Corvette. Sky is the limit with upgrades. Cheap ones too in comparison. Talking to people online in America who own both C5 and C4, they say C4 can be made to go with C5 no problem. You just need to spend the money. LS fits too.

But as I said, I don't care about that. I just want a fun car, which can take B roads with some spirit, sounds great, looks great, feels great and eventful to sit in and gives me a V8, RWD and manual without breaking the bank. I'm past the age of feeling I need to have the fastest car on the road. I will be 40 in a few years.

There is no perfect option. But C4 seems the best fitting. TVRs can look great on photos. But I just saw a wedge up close and oh boy. People complain about fit and finish in American cars. But that was dreadful to look at. Like nothing belonged together or something.

That's just how TVRs are. Well, at least the ones I have experienced. But specially the older ones like wedges. Clarkson used to say that a handmade car which feels like a mass produced one is a good thing. Handmade just doesn't have the same precision. TVRs were all handmade as far as I know and yes, they do look it. They do look, "put together". It's just part of the TVR experience I guess. Corvettes, despite not being a high standard, are mass produced. So tolerances will be tighter and quality will be higher in a way. For TVR's defense, some Astons have that same feeling of put together and cost a lot more.

To me it seems you might really enjoy the C4. And don't worry about people putting it down. The thing is the C4 was for the longest time the cheapest Corvette. So it was bashed, unjustly so. Mainly based on the 1984 car, which only lasted a year and by 1985 had a better engine and the engines got more powerful till the end in 1996. It has been one of the most underrated cars for years. To the point you could get a C4 for cheaper than something like a Datsun 280ZX, which doesnt compare in any way shape or form to a performance car like the C4. All just based on anything but engineering and results. Remember, the Callaway C4 Sledgehammer was faster than the McLaren F1, in 1988. It held the record for a long time. It went 254MPH. Yes, it was not a stock C4 but it was a C4 and it was street legal. So the platform is solid.

So ignore the C4 bashing, which makes so sense, since it's light years better than any Corvette before it. The difference between a C3 dinosaur and a C4 is many times more than the difference between a C5 and C4. Besides this bashing is all generational and it's already changing. You see young youtubers in their late teens and early 20s starting to compliment and appreciate the C4 already. Saying how much they love the look, the pop ups, the drive etc. C4 prices are slowly starting to climb and you already see well worn C5s for cheaper than good C4s in the states. It's just a matter of time now. Soon the newest C4 will be 30 years old and then the prices will take off even more. If you really want one, you should probably buy now.

Edited by Shifter1 on Friday 17th March 19:04

Thanks. The bit about the sledgehammer speed record is very interesting. A C4 faster than the McLaren F1. Crazy!

But yes, a C4 it is. Makes the most sense. I guess a LT4 would be perfect. But they are very rare it seems. The LT4 also doesn't seem to have the infamous optispark problem. But the chances of finding a LT4 are low and if done, will not be cheap.

I have nothing against an older C4. I would just much prefer not having the 4+3 gearbox.

[CM2020]

Indeed. I think a SLK is not what I'm looking for. I also wouldn't have thought it would be one of the cheapest options.