head gasket failure prompts winter rebuild
Discussion
[quote=Mike Tuckwood]Phone me and I'll explain, though to help things along a little (maybe), that's NOT a head gasket that we've fitted, or have ever seen to be able to identify before either?
interesting stuff , so we all agree the head gasket is the wrong one and should never have been fitted ??
i,m sure we are all interested in how the blue head gasket has appeared when it is maintained that that is not the gasket fitted in the complete engine rebuild .
After a bit of research i have discovered that the blue gasket is a old design of ford gasket that has been superseeded by the black one some 18 months ago so it is a mystery as to how it got in your engine James .
Perhaps it got in the same way as bits of rubber glove or second hand bearings found there way into Andy's complete engine rebuild ???
interesting stuff , so we all agree the head gasket is the wrong one and should never have been fitted ??
i,m sure we are all interested in how the blue head gasket has appeared when it is maintained that that is not the gasket fitted in the complete engine rebuild .
After a bit of research i have discovered that the blue gasket is a old design of ford gasket that has been superseeded by the black one some 18 months ago so it is a mystery as to how it got in your engine James .
Perhaps it got in the same way as bits of rubber glove or second hand bearings found there way into Andy's complete engine rebuild ???
TuxMan said:
interesting stuff , so we all agree the head gasket is the wrong one and should never have been fitted ??
"We", who is "we"? I'm not sure that anyone has agreed that at all have they? In fact, maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure that anyone has suggested it's wrong at all yet, but that's an asides?TuxMan said:
i,m sure we are all interested in how the blue head gasket has appeared when it is maintained that that is not the gasket fitted in the complete engine rebuild .
After a bit of research i have discovered that the blue gasket is a old design of ford gasket that has been superseeded by the black one some 18 months ago so it is a mystery as to how it got in your engine James .
Perhaps it got in the same way as bits of rubber glove or second hand bearings found there way into Andy's complete engine rebuild ???
That is indeed an interesting suggestion, As for bits of rubber glove, (not that it's any of your business tbh), that Andy's engine was lathered in assembly oil before being cling filmed, Andy was made fully aware, which he has openly admitted that he would need to thouroughly check and clean his short engine before he continued the build, as due to the sticky nature of that type of oil, we expected it to attract some sort of bits and it seemed to have done, but not until several months after it left our workshop?After a bit of research i have discovered that the blue gasket is a old design of ford gasket that has been superseeded by the black one some 18 months ago so it is a mystery as to how it got in your engine James .
Perhaps it got in the same way as bits of rubber glove or second hand bearings found there way into Andy's complete engine rebuild ???
As for the PERFECTLY SERVICEABLE bearing mentioned, maybe you may want to explain to everyone why it may have been used.... in a "blueprinted" bottom end? Also, as you seem to be so knowledged now Tux, maybe you can tell me by how far out the bearing clearances were on that journal?
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.... clearly this appears to be the case?
Also as discussed earler james, I'll mail copies of the invoices for the 2 genuine Ford head gaskets we used on your build across in the morning, neither of which to anyones recollection, were blue in colour.
Mike.
Edited by Mike Tuckwood on Monday 21st November 20:11
Mike Tuckwood said:
TuxMan said:
interesting stuff , so we all agree the head gasket is the wrong one and should never have been fitted ??
"We", who is "we"? I'm not sure that anyone has agreed that at all have they? In fact, maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure that anyone has suggested it's wrong at all yet, but that's an asides?TuxMan said:
i,m sure we are all interested in how the blue head gasket has appeared when it is maintained that that is not the gasket fitted in the complete engine rebuild .
After a bit of research i have discovered that the blue gasket is a old design of ford gasket that has been superseeded by the black one some 18 months ago so it is a mystery as to how it got in your engine James .
Perhaps it got in the same way as bits of rubber glove or second hand bearings found there way into Andy's complete engine rebuild ???
That is indeed an interesting suggestion, As for bits of rubber glove, (not that it's any of your business tbh), that Andy's engine was lathered in assembly oil before being cling filmed, Andy was made fully aware, which he has openly admitted that he would need to thouroughly check and clean his short engine before he continued the build, as due to the sticky nature of that type of oil, we expected it to attract some sort of bits and it seemed to have done, but not until several months after it left our workshop?After a bit of research i have discovered that the blue gasket is a old design of ford gasket that has been superseeded by the black one some 18 months ago so it is a mystery as to how it got in your engine James .
Perhaps it got in the same way as bits of rubber glove or second hand bearings found there way into Andy's complete engine rebuild ???
As for the PERFECTLY SERVICEABLE bearing mentioned, maybe you may want to explain to everyone why it may have been used.... in a "blueprinted" bottom end? Also, as you seem to be so knowledged now Tux, maybe you can tell me by how far out the bearing clearances were on that journal?
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.... clearly this appears to be the case?
Also as discussed earler james, I'll mail copies of the invoices for the 2 genuine Ford head gaskets we used on your build across in the morning, neither of which to anyones recollection, were blue in colour.
Mike.
Edited by Mike Tuckwood on Monday 21st November 20:11
there is of cause debate about how these things came about and your open to explain/ enterpret them as you wish, but these are the FACTS
The glove finger was found the same day engine was collected with witnesses (5 people), not months later... it was BEHIND the crank and engine was unwrapped on a spotless clean engine build bench... there was also quite a few small pieces of metal debris found.
The "perfectly serviceable" engine bearing was actually from a failed engine that had seized and was not deemed serviceable at all... also 1 of the new bearings used had damage to them... the brand new bearings fitted to the ford rods sent back as unused were in perfect condition and better than the 2nd hand one, the SUPPLIED brand new block from the blueprinted bottom end had deep scratches in it which required a complete strip and skim... scratches clearly visible in build pics provided.
I quite understandably PAID another engine builder to put this right.
moving away from facts and into my view, from a personal note how any engine blueprinter could accidentally fit a damaged bearing and 2nd hand one (ignoring the bits of debris and mystery glove) and miss deep scratches in the block face of a brand new block that they supplied is a mystery to me.
for that same person to question why i believe I was right to DIY my own exhaust rather than send the car to them because they would do a far better job is again shocking considering.
To be clear I have stayed off of this topic and i was about the ask tuxman to remove the post mentioning me.... but please don't start commenting on specifics and expect me to stay quiet.
Not surprised at that reply Andy. The replies when I discussed this by e.mail tell a different story though, it's odd how you make the facts morph to suit when FACTS are displayed as what they are and you shift your story to suit you.
Again, not wanting to shang hai James' thread which i've tried to assist on, but I think i've adequately covered your case of the constantly changing complaint. You beeing bullish here doesn't change facts despite the audience to which you play. e.g. I conceded that the light mark (as opposed to deep scratch) on the deck was caused by the piston guide tool and should have been dealt with before your engine left. It was an oversight, but that was conceded and we offered to rectify it.
If the cap fits , I will wear it. Tghis is not that hat in any way though!
Mike.
Again, not wanting to shang hai James' thread which i've tried to assist on, but I think i've adequately covered your case of the constantly changing complaint. You beeing bullish here doesn't change facts despite the audience to which you play. e.g. I conceded that the light mark (as opposed to deep scratch) on the deck was caused by the piston guide tool and should have been dealt with before your engine left. It was an oversight, but that was conceded and we offered to rectify it.
If the cap fits , I will wear it. Tghis is not that hat in any way though!
Mike.
Mike Tuckwood said:
Not surprised at that reply Andy. The replies when I discussed this by e.mail tell a different story though, it's odd how you make the facts morph to suit when FACTS are displayed as what they are and you shift your story to suit you.
Mike.
Facts remain facts no matter how you wish to twist them Mike.Mike.
Mike , firstly I do not pretend to be a Noble expert unlike some ,with regards to James's head gaskets it was you who suggested he check back with the garage that supplied and fitted them , insinuating they are incorrect or could have been fitted incorrectly .
with my limited knowledge I'm pretty sure fitting odd gaskets on a engine rebuild is not to be recommended and having chatted with 2 friends who are Engine building experts they agree with me it's poor practise .
I also understand you are a expert on ceramic coating as well ???? Especially when it comes to Noble engines .........
And as regards Andy's engine having a second hand shell fitted , ...... Well perhaps we should leave that and stay on subject .
with my limited knowledge I'm pretty sure fitting odd gaskets on a engine rebuild is not to be recommended and having chatted with 2 friends who are Engine building experts they agree with me it's poor practise .
I also understand you are a expert on ceramic coating as well ???? Especially when it comes to Noble engines .........
And as regards Andy's engine having a second hand shell fitted , ...... Well perhaps we should leave that and stay on subject .
Mike Tuckwood said:
andygtt said:
Facts remain facts no matter how you wish to twist them Mike.
I agree Absolutely..... as pointed out by you and supported by your comments in mails to me which differ here from those original comments...... oddly, in favour of the slant you wish to be perceived.Mike.
Your emails where a complete joke.. just lots of excuses and accusations of corruption
Edited by andygtt on Monday 21st November 22:18
TuxMan said:
Mike , firstly I do not pretend to be a Noble expert unlike some ,with regards to James's head gaskets it was you who suggested he check back with the garage that supplied and fitted them , insinuating they are incorrect or could have been fitted incorrectly .
with my limited knowledge I'm pretty sure fitting odd gaskets on a engine rebuild is not to be recommended and having chatted with 2 friends who are Engine building experts they agree with me it's poor practise .
In that we're not in disagreement, I just didn't need to speak to anyone else to check that though. I think you miss my point though, what I was saying was, we are certain that the gasket on the front bank of james' engine was NOT the one we fitted when we built it...........with my limited knowledge I'm pretty sure fitting odd gaskets on a engine rebuild is not to be recommended and having chatted with 2 friends who are Engine building experts they agree with me it's poor practise .
TuxMan said:
I also understand you are a expert on ceramic coating as well ???? Especially when it comes to Noble engines .........
Ahhh, we're there again are we. Go ahead and explain to me the maths, physics and metallurgy etc, which make the Ford turbocharged engine be working to different rules than other turbocharged engines?I do have some knowledge of ceramic coatings, indeed we are big fans of them in the right places. I have no doubt you've considered all of the necessary factors in specifying the size of your new set of pistons made to different tolerances allowing for the altered expansion rates they will see due to the coating, and made the correct allowances with your piston to bore clearances. No doubt you've also considered the likely effects when the coatings flake off the piston tops causing hotspots?
Coating a piston has far reaching mechanical consequences which need extensive consideration. Again, I wouldn't do it on anything other than a dedicated short life before tear down and inspection race engine.
Mike.
So we are in agreement that the gaskets should not have been fitted that way or were fitted incorrectly , good that we agree on that .............
Regards Ceramic coating , I trust the experts involved in my engine build , they all come highly recommeneded and as I am not a expert in such things I will leave it to them to sort out the final points .
James were else has the engine been to be worked on ??
Regards Ceramic coating , I trust the experts involved in my engine build , they all come highly recommeneded and as I am not a expert in such things I will leave it to them to sort out the final points .
James were else has the engine been to be worked on ??
TuxMan said:
So we are in agreement that the gaskets should not have been fitted that way or were fitted incorrectly , good that we agree on that .............
That's not remotely what I agreed is it? I said we wouldn't have (and didn't) do that.From those pictures, I am unable to tell whether or not it's a "genuine ford gasket, but am able to say, that both of the genuine Ford items we fitted, were as far as anyone recalls here, both Black. Indeed, no one here can recall having EVER seeing a Blue gasket before?
Tuxman said:
Regards Ceramic coating , I trust the experts involved in my engine build , they all come highly recommeneded and as I am not a expert in such things I will leave it to them to sort out the final points .
Ahh, gotcha. ;-)Mike.
So the mystery of the blue head gasket get more interesting !!! If you did not fit odd gaskets then who did ?????
If by Gotcha you are insinuating I'm not a Noble expert or engine builder therefore I should not comment on areas I have no expertise in then I bow down to you superior knowledge . But I'm pretty sure my engine will have the same type of gaskets in and will have been fitted correctly ..
If by Gotcha you are insinuating I'm not a Noble expert or engine builder therefore I should not comment on areas I have no expertise in then I bow down to you superior knowledge . But I'm pretty sure my engine will have the same type of gaskets in and will have been fitted correctly ..
evening all!
right, back to my head gasket failure for a second! :-)
sticking to the facts...
First of all to be clear; i have no idea whether the blue coloured gasket is a genuine ford part or not. unfortunately i am away from home until Wed night but will check as soon as i get in to see if the gasket in question sheds any light on this. It seems some think Ford have made a blue gasket but perhaps in the past, and some think they have never made one! One thing which i hadn't noticed which is all the more worrying is that oil galleries on the blue gasket appear much smaller which certainly would not be a good thing.
Aside from why the gasket failed, i have a strange mystery to solve:
The garage which performed an extensive rebuild of my car from (Feb 2010 - May 2011) which is covered in the thread (repairing the damage the stig...). during the rebuild the head gaskets were changed as a matter of course (I have an invoice for the new gaskets). In May the car was collected by trailer and taken to Trevor Jasper to be mapped. the same day it went to Jetstream on another trailer as i wanted them to check the car over. It stayed there for 2 weeks or so as they were too busy to look at it and Dave (Noble guru and gearbox specialist) was away. The night before i collected the car they performed a visual inspection. I drove the car home from Jetstream to Newcastle and it worked for 6 days before the gearbox failed (being stuck in neutral, not fun when at motorway speeds on the A1). The car was then taken to AW Tracksport who eventually, after trying a new selector mechanism, had the gearbox removed (without removing the engine) and rebuild along with other snags. I then picked the car up and it worked for a couple of months before the head gasket showed signs of failure the weekend before a load of us were supposed to do a trackday at Silverstone. I had it recovered and it sat in my garage for a few weeks while i was busy at work. i then got round to working on it and started this thread.
When i removed the cylinder heads i found the witness marks of the failed gasket, as covered in this thread earlier. At this point some of the experienced amongst you noticed the differences between the gaskets and of course the possible significance of the colour differences.
Mike maintains that new gaskets, purchased from Ford, were fitted to the car and has invoices to prove his purchase. I can't argue with this.
So, the question is: How did the blue gasket get into the engine build.
I've had a look through photos of the strip down stage of the rebuild whilst at Mikes garage. The gaskets which were removed (to my knowledge the original from when the car was made) were both black in colour. so we know the original ones where not re-used.
So, either:
- Ford supplied the Blue gasket (old stock in their stores)
- Mike's garage had another gasket on the shelves which was picked up instead of the Ford part
- Jetstream decided to change the head gasket without telling me!
- AW Tracksport decided to change the head gasket without telling me!
Unless someone can point out an option i have missed??
Mike, i do not have all the photos you took during the build of the engine. perhaps one shows a black gasket at some stage?
whilst i don't know Jetstream very well at all i would be amazed if they would have changed the head gasket.... i mean why would they?
AW Tracksport have ran my race car for over a year and they are so busy on race cars they definitely wouldn't have done it in the height of the race season.
James
right, back to my head gasket failure for a second! :-)
sticking to the facts...
First of all to be clear; i have no idea whether the blue coloured gasket is a genuine ford part or not. unfortunately i am away from home until Wed night but will check as soon as i get in to see if the gasket in question sheds any light on this. It seems some think Ford have made a blue gasket but perhaps in the past, and some think they have never made one! One thing which i hadn't noticed which is all the more worrying is that oil galleries on the blue gasket appear much smaller which certainly would not be a good thing.
Aside from why the gasket failed, i have a strange mystery to solve:
The garage which performed an extensive rebuild of my car from (Feb 2010 - May 2011) which is covered in the thread (repairing the damage the stig...). during the rebuild the head gaskets were changed as a matter of course (I have an invoice for the new gaskets). In May the car was collected by trailer and taken to Trevor Jasper to be mapped. the same day it went to Jetstream on another trailer as i wanted them to check the car over. It stayed there for 2 weeks or so as they were too busy to look at it and Dave (Noble guru and gearbox specialist) was away. The night before i collected the car they performed a visual inspection. I drove the car home from Jetstream to Newcastle and it worked for 6 days before the gearbox failed (being stuck in neutral, not fun when at motorway speeds on the A1). The car was then taken to AW Tracksport who eventually, after trying a new selector mechanism, had the gearbox removed (without removing the engine) and rebuild along with other snags. I then picked the car up and it worked for a couple of months before the head gasket showed signs of failure the weekend before a load of us were supposed to do a trackday at Silverstone. I had it recovered and it sat in my garage for a few weeks while i was busy at work. i then got round to working on it and started this thread.
When i removed the cylinder heads i found the witness marks of the failed gasket, as covered in this thread earlier. At this point some of the experienced amongst you noticed the differences between the gaskets and of course the possible significance of the colour differences.
Mike maintains that new gaskets, purchased from Ford, were fitted to the car and has invoices to prove his purchase. I can't argue with this.
So, the question is: How did the blue gasket get into the engine build.
I've had a look through photos of the strip down stage of the rebuild whilst at Mikes garage. The gaskets which were removed (to my knowledge the original from when the car was made) were both black in colour. so we know the original ones where not re-used.
So, either:
- Ford supplied the Blue gasket (old stock in their stores)
- Mike's garage had another gasket on the shelves which was picked up instead of the Ford part
- Jetstream decided to change the head gasket without telling me!
- AW Tracksport decided to change the head gasket without telling me!
Unless someone can point out an option i have missed??
Mike, i do not have all the photos you took during the build of the engine. perhaps one shows a black gasket at some stage?
whilst i don't know Jetstream very well at all i would be amazed if they would have changed the head gasket.... i mean why would they?
AW Tracksport have ran my race car for over a year and they are so busy on race cars they definitely wouldn't have done it in the height of the race season.
James
We don't keep them on the shelf because we don't need to. Main dealer is either next day or 2 day from stock and when we have one to do, it takes longer than that to get the car in a position where a new head gasket is needed.
We have never seen a blue gasket as shown before, on any car to the best of our recollection.
James, I'll gladly look through all the pictures again tomorrow but I think you have all I have. I don't expect we may have anticipated this particular scenario when taking them though?
As discussed earlier, the colour of the gasket doesn't mean a whole lot, and may have been a correct old stock one from somewhere (other than here as best we can tell). It doesn't point towards the failure cause though unless for some reason it is a "wrong gasket"?
Mike.
We have never seen a blue gasket as shown before, on any car to the best of our recollection.
James, I'll gladly look through all the pictures again tomorrow but I think you have all I have. I don't expect we may have anticipated this particular scenario when taking them though?
As discussed earlier, the colour of the gasket doesn't mean a whole lot, and may have been a correct old stock one from somewhere (other than here as best we can tell). It doesn't point towards the failure cause though unless for some reason it is a "wrong gasket"?
Mike.
Good evening James,
As you know, your car sat in my workshop while Dave was away, and once we were both free made a list of faults that we visually found on the car. To my recollection this was all for a minimal fee as we were just trying to help you in the right direction, and finally after Many months actually have a finished car back. If I had have got bored at some point (and that happens regularly) taking your head off, fitting a new gasket, and re-fitting FOC, would unfortunately not be at the top of my things to do. (although would have put a nice twist on this story.
Where is Holmes when you need him?
Matt
As you know, your car sat in my workshop while Dave was away, and once we were both free made a list of faults that we visually found on the car. To my recollection this was all for a minimal fee as we were just trying to help you in the right direction, and finally after Many months actually have a finished car back. If I had have got bored at some point (and that happens regularly) taking your head off, fitting a new gasket, and re-fitting FOC, would unfortunately not be at the top of my things to do. (although would have put a nice twist on this story.
Where is Holmes when you need him?
Matt
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