Engine finally ready for Dyno test
Discussion
Gadgeroonie said:
most Dyno's do a coast down to measure the transmission losses
the problem is the engine is disconnected from the gearbox and there is no power transmitted through the gearbox !!
if you measured 100 or 1000hp on the power run the the loss is the same every time LOL
the only real way to find out the losses is to take the engine out and test it on an engine dyno at different loads, then perform the same test on a load bearing chassis dyno - the real result will be much higher than 50 hp at full load and much less than 50 hp at light load
Without stating the obvious... But sundance had his engine on an engine dyno and then a chassis dyno.... So did daddysumo. So they both know the losses accurately.the problem is the engine is disconnected from the gearbox and there is no power transmitted through the gearbox !!
if you measured 100 or 1000hp on the power run the the loss is the same every time LOL
the only real way to find out the losses is to take the engine out and test it on an engine dyno at different loads, then perform the same test on a load bearing chassis dyno - the real result will be much higher than 50 hp at full load and much less than 50 hp at light load
Basically they agree with R&T calculated losses so I'm guessing they are better at calculating than some others... So on full chat on a 600+ bhp car they are around 50bhp.
TuxMan said:
It might look good but it did NOT work for Sundance yesterday !!!! He was very lucky not to kill his engine !!!
It will be interesting to see what bespoke say thought .
I like the idea of them in an NA car, but I personally don't like the idea on a turbo car... Putting too much heat into the water system IMO and you'd need to beef up the cooling system to compensate.It will be interesting to see what bespoke say thought .
All development though, and for sure you come away with knowledge and a running car.... Was the same for me at rockingham.
andygtt said:
Without stating the obvious... But sundance had his engine on an engine dyno and then a chassis dyno.... So did daddysumo. So they both know the losses accurately.
Basically they agree with R&T calculated losses so I'm guessing they are better at calculating than some others... So on full chat on a 600+ bhp car they are around 50bhp.
actually its not that simple - because dynos that use the coastdown can not accuratley measure the fly power so they have to overread the wheel power to make the small fly loss add up Basically they agree with R&T calculated losses so I'm guessing they are better at calculating than some others... So on full chat on a 600+ bhp car they are around 50bhp.
It's is that simple, I've been to R&T a number of times so I see what they do.... I've also had mine on a hub dyno which are significantly more reliably accurate than any othre chasis dyno so I have direct comparisons.
Bottom line is I have total confidence that the R&T dyno is acurate...
Also worth mentioning that Sundance car wasn't on the R&t dyno... So again it's another independent dyno confirming it.
Bottom line is I have total confidence that the R&T dyno is acurate...
Also worth mentioning that Sundance car wasn't on the R&t dyno... So again it's another independent dyno confirming it.
Well drove back to Silverstone Sunday morn, Martin from Bespoke took me there, we put the new coil in and hey presto all was good again,
The car will be at Bespoke today to look at what the causr was or is with the Laminova, on the road my oil temps have never gone above 76 that's in traffic, on the move it shows around 60, so great on the road, what's so strange is on track it just didn't work at all, which makes me think that at normal speeds it was fine and the airflow through side pod ok,
but at high speed things were totally different no flow at all. Maybe there was a problem somewhere were no more later.
Just to clear things up, the loss to wheels was around 45 47 bhp and that seems to be the same as others have mentioned, so regardless of who and where, if more than one are coming to the same conclusion, then I reckon they ain't both wrong.
The car will be at Bespoke today to look at what the causr was or is with the Laminova, on the road my oil temps have never gone above 76 that's in traffic, on the move it shows around 60, so great on the road, what's so strange is on track it just didn't work at all, which makes me think that at normal speeds it was fine and the airflow through side pod ok,
but at high speed things were totally different no flow at all. Maybe there was a problem somewhere were no more later.
Just to clear things up, the loss to wheels was around 45 47 bhp and that seems to be the same as others have mentioned, so regardless of who and where, if more than one are coming to the same conclusion, then I reckon they ain't both wrong.
Pretty much common knowledge that very little air flow gets into the M400 side-pods above about 70mph. The air-flow de-laminates and just goes round the side of the pod above this speed. Hence any cooling device for track-related work that is located in the side-pods needs to have fans to suck air through. This is in contrast to the I/C where a fan will restrict flow.
My standard oil-cooler has been turned through 90degress and 2 fans added. These are wired into the spare switch on the centre console (along with gearbox cooler pump and fans which are in the other side pod) so they can all be switched on prior to going out on track. Engine oil-temps rarely go above 100C even on the hottest/hardest days. None of the added cooling is necessary for normal road driving.
My standard oil-cooler has been turned through 90degress and 2 fans added. These are wired into the spare switch on the centre console (along with gearbox cooler pump and fans which are in the other side pod) so they can all be switched on prior to going out on track. Engine oil-temps rarely go above 100C even on the hottest/hardest days. None of the added cooling is necessary for normal road driving.
RobP said:
Pretty much common knowledge that very little air flow gets into the M400 side-pods above about 70mph. The air-flow de-laminates and just goes round the side of the pod above this speed. Hence any cooling device for track-related work that is located in the side-pods needs to have fans to suck air through. This is in contrast to the I/C where a fan will restrict flow.
My standard oil-cooler has been turned through 90degress and 2 fans added. These are wired into the spare switch on the centre console (along with gearbox cooler pump and fans which are in the other side pod) so they can all be switched on prior to going out on track. Engine oil-temps rarely go above 100C even on the hottest/hardest days. None of the added cooling is necessary for normal road driving.
Hi RobMy standard oil-cooler has been turned through 90degress and 2 fans added. These are wired into the spare switch on the centre console (along with gearbox cooler pump and fans which are in the other side pod) so they can all be switched on prior to going out on track. Engine oil-temps rarely go above 100C even on the hottest/hardest days. None of the added cooling is necessary for normal road driving.
The thing is, the Laminova is not supposed to need any air flow to work, it can be put anywhere, it relies on its internal coils and whatever to cool it, in this case it didn't work. I need to find out what the cause was? but will be changing back, as never had the problem on track before, most I saw was 110.
sundance002 said:
Hi Rob
The thing is, the Laminova is not supposed to need any air flow to work, it can be put anywhere, it relies on its internal coils and whatever to cool it, in this case it didn't work. I need to find out what the cause was? but will be changing back, as never had the problem on track before, most I saw was 110.
How are you diverting the water feed to it? Is it possible that at high revs and so high flow rates the water finds another path? Might explain why it seems to work on the road as the average revs are that much lower.The thing is, the Laminova is not supposed to need any air flow to work, it can be put anywhere, it relies on its internal coils and whatever to cool it, in this case it didn't work. I need to find out what the cause was? but will be changing back, as never had the problem on track before, most I saw was 110.
Obviously without knowing the plumbing I don't know if this is a possiblilty, but I've seen it happen in other systems, so might be worth thinking about.
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:
ow are you diverting the water feed to it? Is it possible that at high revs and so high flow rates the water finds another path? Might explain why it seems to work on the road as the average revs are that much lower.
Obviously without knowing the plumbing I don't know if this is a possiblilty, but I've seen it happen in other systems, so might be worth thinking about.
Hi Phil, good question, I'm not sure, but what was strange was the water temp was ok, just the oil temp gave the problems, so you could be right in that there after the water feed to the cooler may have been the problem, as the temp out of the rad must of been ok, my water temp gauge is connected to the ecu so now show accurate readings, I'm starting to think that under extreme load the Laminova struggles to keep up, in other words the water going through the laminovo doesn't have enough time to cool before its spat out the other end, all speculation of course, hopefully we will have an answere tomorrow .Obviously without knowing the plumbing I don't know if this is a possiblilty, but I've seen it happen in other systems, so might be worth thinking about.
sundance002 said:
Well drove back to Silverstone Sunday morn, Martin from Bespoke took me there, we put the new coil in and hey presto all was good again,
The car will be at Bespoke today to look at what the causr was or is with the Laminova, on the road my oil temps have never gone above 76 that's in traffic, on the move it shows around 60, so great on the road, what's so strange is on track it just didn't work at all, which makes me think that at normal speeds it was fine and the airflow through side pod ok,
but at high speed things were totally different no flow at all. Maybe there was a problem somewhere were no more later.
Just to clear things up, the loss to wheels was around 45 47 bhp and that seems to be the same as others have mentioned, so regardless of who and where, if more than one are coming to the same conclusion, then I reckon they ain't both wrong.
Hi Craig, Have they resolved your oil cooling problem ? The car will be at Bespoke today to look at what the causr was or is with the Laminova, on the road my oil temps have never gone above 76 that's in traffic, on the move it shows around 60, so great on the road, what's so strange is on track it just didn't work at all, which makes me think that at normal speeds it was fine and the airflow through side pod ok,
but at high speed things were totally different no flow at all. Maybe there was a problem somewhere were no more later.
Just to clear things up, the loss to wheels was around 45 47 bhp and that seems to be the same as others have mentioned, so regardless of who and where, if more than one are coming to the same conclusion, then I reckon they ain't both wrong.
GTO600 said:
Hi Craig, Have they resolved your oil cooling problem ?
Hi Kevin, At Bespoke being done, I think the problem with Laminova is it can't keep up with the flow, it passes through it to quick to cool properly so to be efficient, you would need 2 in line, so going back to front mounted cooler.Hi gents, thought id give an update on the progress,
After changing back to the Motec front mounted oil cooler and reducing the size of the front number plate, my oil temps have dropped dramatically, so much, so that now it runs to cool and is hard to get up to temp, which in the summer will be great, but now is a problem, so quick measure was to tape up the front mesh in front of the cooler which helped but not enough, the hottest i could get was 78, and the water temp with the new thermostat showed 90, problem is if I add more tape the water temp increases, so will have to go back to standard size number plate in winter, and small for summer.
The last month we have been trying to get the part throttle maps to be perfect, we spent days driving round the M25 and all the B roads in Essex, but we always seemed to encounter a problem where as each time we got it spot on, the next day it would drive awful again, it would misfire around 5k rpm and kangaroo if you where in traffic at 2k rpm it was getting very frustrating, we took the car to Surrey rolling road, where Ryan who also works with the life system and no his onions strapped it on and we done some power runs we couldn't achieve anymore than 570bhp without the fuel pressure dropping and causing a misfire then the spark would blow out , I left there with my head in my hands and the poss of someone else's joining it;) then Ryan suggested checking the spark to the coils. and hardwiring the fuel pump.
What we found Down at Bespoke, was the new fuel reg seal had broken down and was loosing pressure, Skip made a better seal, so now no more fuel pressure probs and the misfire gone.
The next problem ie the spark blowing out, turns out the power by the time it reaches the coil has lost 2volt so the spark is week hence it gets blown out, Jason who built the loom, is going to run 2 wires to each coil, inside the loom, so we deliver the voltage the coil needs to work correctly to boost the spark to the plugs, will let you know when all is finished, as we will then be doing all the power runs again in Chertsey Surrey. So will finally have all the power runs complete, I have also decided to go fully digital for all my diplays so will be fitting this into my carbon dash, its touch screen and is perfect for my needs, check it out here .
www.jti.uk.com/toucan/
Skip will remove my oil gauge and boost gauge and replace them with this unit flush mounted. The fact that its touch screen and direct into the ecu, i can also check all the data and do map changes via the screen, so no need for laptop pc.
Nearly forgot, have now fitted 2 fuel pumps the same as the other big power boys, as back up.
Sundance
After changing back to the Motec front mounted oil cooler and reducing the size of the front number plate, my oil temps have dropped dramatically, so much, so that now it runs to cool and is hard to get up to temp, which in the summer will be great, but now is a problem, so quick measure was to tape up the front mesh in front of the cooler which helped but not enough, the hottest i could get was 78, and the water temp with the new thermostat showed 90, problem is if I add more tape the water temp increases, so will have to go back to standard size number plate in winter, and small for summer.
The last month we have been trying to get the part throttle maps to be perfect, we spent days driving round the M25 and all the B roads in Essex, but we always seemed to encounter a problem where as each time we got it spot on, the next day it would drive awful again, it would misfire around 5k rpm and kangaroo if you where in traffic at 2k rpm it was getting very frustrating, we took the car to Surrey rolling road, where Ryan who also works with the life system and no his onions strapped it on and we done some power runs we couldn't achieve anymore than 570bhp without the fuel pressure dropping and causing a misfire then the spark would blow out , I left there with my head in my hands and the poss of someone else's joining it;) then Ryan suggested checking the spark to the coils. and hardwiring the fuel pump.
What we found Down at Bespoke, was the new fuel reg seal had broken down and was loosing pressure, Skip made a better seal, so now no more fuel pressure probs and the misfire gone.
The next problem ie the spark blowing out, turns out the power by the time it reaches the coil has lost 2volt so the spark is week hence it gets blown out, Jason who built the loom, is going to run 2 wires to each coil, inside the loom, so we deliver the voltage the coil needs to work correctly to boost the spark to the plugs, will let you know when all is finished, as we will then be doing all the power runs again in Chertsey Surrey. So will finally have all the power runs complete, I have also decided to go fully digital for all my diplays so will be fitting this into my carbon dash, its touch screen and is perfect for my needs, check it out here .
www.jti.uk.com/toucan/
Skip will remove my oil gauge and boost gauge and replace them with this unit flush mounted. The fact that its touch screen and direct into the ecu, i can also check all the data and do map changes via the screen, so no need for laptop pc.
Nearly forgot, have now fitted 2 fuel pumps the same as the other big power boys, as back up.
Sundance
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