Definitive solution for M12 intercooler
Discussion
I'm going to bow out of this thread now, there's sufficent information on the FP solution from Paul/Myself earlier in the thread and I feel its never professional to comment directly on the workmanship or products of competitors.
Looking forward to seeing the pics though.
Matt
>> Edited by matt_t16 on Monday 28th February 18:57
Looking forward to seeing the pics though.
Matt
>> Edited by matt_t16 on Monday 28th February 18:57
matt_t16 said:
I'm going to bow out of this thread now, there's sufficent information on the FP solution from Paul/Myself earlier in the thread and I feel its never professional to comment directly on the workmanship or products of competitors.
Looking forward to seeing the pics though.
Matt
>> Edited by matt_t16 on Monday 28th February 18:57
it's only question if some one is able to do a proper JOB or NOT!
that's it!
and this solution works perfectly!
if for you is not professional is your own problem!!
I think the observation I would make is that they have made the IC dead upright, deepened (thickened) its core significantly and then covered (i.e obscured) both faces with the fans. The net result is that this must impede what little natural airflow there is. Therefore the fans will have to operate all the time.
Matt's solution is clearly more cerebral, elegant and makes the most of what airflow is there already, its a more efficient solution which we know does not need a fan on a cold day. Its also got to be lighter, both from the weight of the IC itself and thanks to its efficiency the need for only one fan vs four. Its also cheaper.
I think I'll stick with the one I've got.
Regards
Paul C
Matt's solution is clearly more cerebral, elegant and makes the most of what airflow is there already, its a more efficient solution which we know does not need a fan on a cold day. Its also got to be lighter, both from the weight of the IC itself and thanks to its efficiency the need for only one fan vs four. Its also cheaper.
I think I'll stick with the one I've got.
Regards
Paul C
The 4 fans are necessary
the intercooler is so big that you need 2 fans that push the air inside and other 2 that pull the air from intercooler.
we tested many solutions but this one is the most efective for less cost and less structural modifications.
Also this intercooler with 4 fans looks more race car and you can see also from the back of the car throw the rear grill.
PS: the fans are manually switchable if necessary!
>> Edited by elisek on Tuesday 1st March 10:02
the intercooler is so big that you need 2 fans that push the air inside and other 2 that pull the air from intercooler.
we tested many solutions but this one is the most efective for less cost and less structural modifications.
Also this intercooler with 4 fans looks more race car and you can see also from the back of the car throw the rear grill.
PS: the fans are manually switchable if necessary!
>> Edited by elisek on Tuesday 1st March 10:02
Dear Paulcundy,
as you've written at the top of the topic we all know that there's absolutely no air (or a very few quantity) that enter in the intake for the ic, the problem is that at the higher speed this no-air problem become worst.
We've filmed the car in the straight putting some stick to see where the air pass and what kind of turbulence create, unfortunately up 200kph the turbulence in the back are really enormous (even the tail is an incredible aerodinamic brake), so no fresh air that enter directly in the IC, and lapping in Monza you're most of the time over 200kph, in more it's a circuit where you've for 75% of time full throttle opened (we put an AIM telemetry for having all the datas...) no other circuit could give you so much time continuesly opened-throttle and for this the ic become hotter and hotter, finishing we didn't only thought for a solution with cold temp. but a solution for every temp. an other problem here is that from May to Sept we turn over 30 degrees...
For that reason we've asked to build such a big IC, the weight difference is a 6 kg so nothing change we're not in a F1 championship, with cold temp we lap with the fans turned off, when temp go up 15 degrees we turn on the fans and we've a temp of air between 25 and 40, the problems start at plus 50.
With the standard 3R in last July the aspirated air temp was over 70!!! I lost turbo pressure 0,4/0,5 as pick and 17 points cutted of ignition degrees...so maybe we had the same power of an elise :-(((
I know that the racing Noble has an high eff Ic vented with a fan, we've exagerate this concept for having absolutely no more problems and the results arrived.
I'll be glad to test even the solution of Matt, but the only possibility should be to mount one and the other IC before in a hot and fast track.
For the "style" I think that we're speacking of a Noble M400 born for the track (where style is less important than seconds) not for the Croisette evenings, for that is better a Rolls...
as you've written at the top of the topic we all know that there's absolutely no air (or a very few quantity) that enter in the intake for the ic, the problem is that at the higher speed this no-air problem become worst.
We've filmed the car in the straight putting some stick to see where the air pass and what kind of turbulence create, unfortunately up 200kph the turbulence in the back are really enormous (even the tail is an incredible aerodinamic brake), so no fresh air that enter directly in the IC, and lapping in Monza you're most of the time over 200kph, in more it's a circuit where you've for 75% of time full throttle opened (we put an AIM telemetry for having all the datas...) no other circuit could give you so much time continuesly opened-throttle and for this the ic become hotter and hotter, finishing we didn't only thought for a solution with cold temp. but a solution for every temp. an other problem here is that from May to Sept we turn over 30 degrees...
For that reason we've asked to build such a big IC, the weight difference is a 6 kg so nothing change we're not in a F1 championship, with cold temp we lap with the fans turned off, when temp go up 15 degrees we turn on the fans and we've a temp of air between 25 and 40, the problems start at plus 50.
With the standard 3R in last July the aspirated air temp was over 70!!! I lost turbo pressure 0,4/0,5 as pick and 17 points cutted of ignition degrees...so maybe we had the same power of an elise :-(((
I know that the racing Noble has an high eff Ic vented with a fan, we've exagerate this concept for having absolutely no more problems and the results arrived.
I'll be glad to test even the solution of Matt, but the only possibility should be to mount one and the other IC before in a hot and fast track.
For the "style" I think that we're speacking of a Noble M400 born for the track (where style is less important than seconds) not for the Croisette evenings, for that is better a Rolls...
Matt, hope you don't mind a few questions?
What is the pressure drop across your intercooler vs the factory at max engine CFM? (dunno what this is for the M12 or M400 lumps? Going by the rule of thumb earlier in this thread 650CFM would be appropriate for the m400)
Also when you bench tested, what were ambient temps, where was it mounted etc. How long did you run the test to get to this figure?
You mention the thermal mass of your unit is higher. How can this be possible if it is lighter and thus using less metal?
Also you mention internal surface area is higher. Can you explain how you measured this, as the number of pipes and thermulator surface area looks quite similar in the pic.
Cheers,
Dan
DanH said:
Matt, hope you don't mind a few questions?
Not at all
DanH said:
What is the pressure drop across your intercooler vs the factory at max engine CFM? (dunno what this is for the M12 or M400 lumps? Going by the rule of thumb earlier in this thread 650CFM would be appropriate for the m400)
Pressure drop is less than 1psi, the prototype when tested flowed 674CFM - I expect this to be higher on the production units.
DanH said:
Also when you bench tested, what were ambient temps, where was it mounted etc. How long did you run the test to get to this figure?
Ambient temp was around 18 degrees, mounted vertically 900CFM fan on hot side of IC core - 45 second test.
DanH said:
You mention the thermal mass of your unit is higher. How can this be possible if it is lighter and thus using less metal?
If your referring to my earlier post on Pauls exhaust thread I was not insinuating that our IC had a much higher thermal mass than the standard unit (both are almost equal, the standard IC has sufficient thermal mass but does not conduct heat efficiently (both from charge - core and core - ambient) what I was trying to say was due to the thinner foils more are present within the IC to ensure the maximum thermal mass possible is available. Obviously thinner = less mass hence why more foil is present in our IC, this also has the effect of increasing surface area which again aids heat transfer from the charge. Apologies for any confusion on that point.
DanH said:
Also you mention internal surface area is higher. Can you explain how you measured this, as the number of pipes and thermulator surface area looks quite similar in the pic.
Its hard to see on the pics (especially as the standard core has externally welded tubes) but our tubes are very very slightly thicker than the standard ones, that's the main reason our core height is 260mm vs 254mm for the standard unit. You've no doubt noticed we posistion the foil at 45 degress and have 12 full height foils. Also don't forget our IC has another 57mm of core length as well.
Hope this answers any questions you've got? Feel free to drop me a mail or post up anytime you might have more
Best Regards
Matt
>> Edited by matt_fp on Tuesday 1st March 20:10
If they're the cores I think they're using, well they're not straight fins, but tubular with the airflow running at right angles to the longest axis, and have 0.3 mm air gaps between 0.2 mm thick fins or something like that...
apparantly they have superb air flow and very low loss...
These are the cores that I want to use for an supercharged Lexus V8 that I have in mind...
Matt: hope I havn't given your game away, but if you've done a nice job with these cores, I might just be interested in one or 2 of those IC's when they're done.
apparantly they have superb air flow and very low loss...
These are the cores that I want to use for an supercharged Lexus V8 that I have in mind...
Matt: hope I havn't given your game away, but if you've done a nice job with these cores, I might just be interested in one or 2 of those IC's when they're done.
peterpsg said:
If they're the cores I think they're using, well they're not straight fins, but tubular with the airflow running at right angles to the longest axis, and have 0.3 mm air gaps between 0.2 mm thick fins or something like that...
apparantly they have superb air flow and very low loss...
Very close
peterpsg said:
These are the cores that I want to use for an supercharged Lexus V8 that I have in mind...
Matt: hope I havn't given your game away, but if you've done a nice job with these cores, I might just be interested in one or 2 of those IC's when they're done.
Drop me a mail and I'm sure we can talk.
Best Regards
Matt
>> Edited by matt_fp on Tuesday 1st March 19:52
Hi all,
my name is ALessandro, and I'm the man behind the "very big" IC on the UKgarage's Noble.
I read with attention all the topic, and I have to say that some of you had a professional approach to the problem...that's what I tried to have too.
The results are in the pictures posted, with the highest efficiency core available (made in the UK), and with sizes that allow us to have extremely stable performances up to over 50°C ambient temperature.
Yes, the system is big and requires some mods to the original fixings of the Intercooler, but it's definitely the only system that allowed the car to compete in Monza at its full performances without the ECU having to compensate any "out of range" temperature.
The fans are necessary when you are going to push the car at its limits, because of the depth of the cooler, and the particular shape of the car in that region, that doesn't allow a pressure drop big enough to "suck" air trough a so big cooler. I know that MR Short have a similar system in its racing noble, but from my datas, we could not be on "the safe side" using an identical system and handling the full power of the car for almost 6 km, 75% of which at full throttle.
As we are not in F1, and we could go to a 120% safe solution, that's what we did.
In addition, with the help of the factory and its engineers (that I have to thanks for their professional approach, and all the help and support they gave us), we have developped an experimental system of water injection, that prooved to be extremely efficient, and that will certainly give its contribution when the ambient here will go over 40°C (very common in summer).
All this, and Marcello's right foot, helped us to lap almost 4 secs quicker the average GT3 lap in Monza, and almost 2 secs faster than any recorded GT3 lap.
What a fantastic car, and what a fantastic intercoler.
regards to all
ALessandro
my name is ALessandro, and I'm the man behind the "very big" IC on the UKgarage's Noble.
I read with attention all the topic, and I have to say that some of you had a professional approach to the problem...that's what I tried to have too.
The results are in the pictures posted, with the highest efficiency core available (made in the UK), and with sizes that allow us to have extremely stable performances up to over 50°C ambient temperature.
Yes, the system is big and requires some mods to the original fixings of the Intercooler, but it's definitely the only system that allowed the car to compete in Monza at its full performances without the ECU having to compensate any "out of range" temperature.
The fans are necessary when you are going to push the car at its limits, because of the depth of the cooler, and the particular shape of the car in that region, that doesn't allow a pressure drop big enough to "suck" air trough a so big cooler. I know that MR Short have a similar system in its racing noble, but from my datas, we could not be on "the safe side" using an identical system and handling the full power of the car for almost 6 km, 75% of which at full throttle.
As we are not in F1, and we could go to a 120% safe solution, that's what we did.
In addition, with the help of the factory and its engineers (that I have to thanks for their professional approach, and all the help and support they gave us), we have developped an experimental system of water injection, that prooved to be extremely efficient, and that will certainly give its contribution when the ambient here will go over 40°C (very common in summer).
All this, and Marcello's right foot, helped us to lap almost 4 secs quicker the average GT3 lap in Monza, and almost 2 secs faster than any recorded GT3 lap.
What a fantastic car, and what a fantastic intercoler.
regards to all
ALessandro
Dear All,
We did some objective testing yesterday at Rockingham. These are the results. We compared the standard IC with Faulks'. Temps measured with the IR pyro gun with clams lifted immediately after returning from a real "hoon" in each car;
Outlet Tank Temp On my car was 19.5 'c min to 21.5 'c max.
Outlet Tank Temp On Standard Car's IC min 39.5 'c and 44.5 'c max.
So the proof is there, yesterday the Faulks IC produced a 20'c greater cooling effect than the standard IC. No other mods at all.
Two other points, because the his IC was so efficient the fan wasn't triggered all day long.
Also note the the max temp on the standard IC was at some point over 44'c even though it was on a bloody cold day. That means that even yesterday, when it was freezing, some of the cars with standard ICs will have had their ECUs robbing them of power as it begins retarding at 40'c.
We also did some data logging and confirmed on the "computed" power curves there was no drop off in power from end of a session to the beginning.
I think the term is - no brainer. The results speak for themselves. This has got to be one of the easiest performance upgrades that will fit all models of M12.
In the past I've refrained from recomending anyone's products but there's no point, if you want to upgrade your M12 GTO/3/3R or M400 go and buy one.
Regards
Paul C
We did some objective testing yesterday at Rockingham. These are the results. We compared the standard IC with Faulks'. Temps measured with the IR pyro gun with clams lifted immediately after returning from a real "hoon" in each car;
Outlet Tank Temp On my car was 19.5 'c min to 21.5 'c max.
Outlet Tank Temp On Standard Car's IC min 39.5 'c and 44.5 'c max.
So the proof is there, yesterday the Faulks IC produced a 20'c greater cooling effect than the standard IC. No other mods at all.
Two other points, because the his IC was so efficient the fan wasn't triggered all day long.
Also note the the max temp on the standard IC was at some point over 44'c even though it was on a bloody cold day. That means that even yesterday, when it was freezing, some of the cars with standard ICs will have had their ECUs robbing them of power as it begins retarding at 40'c.
We also did some data logging and confirmed on the "computed" power curves there was no drop off in power from end of a session to the beginning.
I think the term is - no brainer. The results speak for themselves. This has got to be one of the easiest performance upgrades that will fit all models of M12.
In the past I've refrained from recomending anyone's products but there's no point, if you want to upgrade your M12 GTO/3/3R or M400 go and buy one.
Regards
Paul C
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