RE: Noble lets the M12 and M400 go
Discussion
gottabedone said:
It makes you wonder how a blinged up 400 in the states at $ prices will compare both in terms of value and performance to Nobles new car in the UK. Also are spares for UK 400's going to be shipped over from the States?
I doubt that parts for UK cars will come from the us. At the moment nobles imported to the US are fambricated in South Africa, assembled and trimmed in the UK and then shipped to the US for fitting of a US spec engine.
I would guess witht his arrangment 1G will probably source the body and frame from South Africa and then ship to the US where they will assemble the entire car with more US spec parts. UK supplied cars mostly use comercially aviable parts which you will still be able to buy through Noble UK.
I would guess that Noble will be getting a royalty for every car produced and that there will be a none compete deal agreed with 1G where by they will not be permitted to produce a righthand drive 1Gnoble. (thats a pun)
I would guess that the reason for this is to free up Nobles reasources that are currently employed building M12/M400 and provide a steady revenue stream from royalties due to the 1G built cars. The rumour is that Noble's investor is American, I wonder if they are associated with 1G racing in the US and that essentially creating two parallel manufacturing companies is part of the deal.
Currently the M12/400 are sold as kit cars over in the US, limiting their market due to the draconian insurance restrictions that implies here.
Without knowing the details of the deal it's purely speculation, but assuming Noble are receiving royalties and assuming that 1g can now shake the kit car status then this could be a shrewd move. The US has a big market for cars like this and it could certainly give the $70k Z06 a run for its money.
Without knowing the details of the deal it's purely speculation, but assuming Noble are receiving royalties and assuming that 1g can now shake the kit car status then this could be a shrewd move. The US has a big market for cars like this and it could certainly give the $70k Z06 a run for its money.
misterx said:
What will this do for the price of second hand M12/M400's then?
i reckon they should hold prices and appreciate over a period of time
i for one would be very interested in building and selling Nobles here in the UK -i think the M12/M400 has become a cult car and this news has made it even more iconic
it will go down in history like the AC Cobra for example
Edited by gadgeroonie on Wednesday 21st February 18:01
Reminds me very much of the start of the slow decease of TVR- "listen guys we stop production of what we have and develop something wonderful"...
That will work only if you either
- have unlimited funds to create what what you want without having to rely on incoming money
- are in the process of beeing taken over by a global player (equals 1)
- and are far enough in the deveolpment that you can firmly guarantee deliverie dates and take orders
Otherwise if only minor shake ups /delays in your plan happen (which will in complex processes like that)you will be stuck in your process, have now financia back up by your continous sales (or your big brother)---and will end up going (..to relocate production to a place in Europe or Italy..)
I hope they really know what they are doing- there are to much massproduced cars and not enough individuals around...
That will work only if you either
- have unlimited funds to create what what you want without having to rely on incoming money
- are in the process of beeing taken over by a global player (equals 1)
- and are far enough in the deveolpment that you can firmly guarantee deliverie dates and take orders
Otherwise if only minor shake ups /delays in your plan happen (which will in complex processes like that)you will be stuck in your process, have now financia back up by your continous sales (or your big brother)---and will end up going (..to relocate production to a place in Europe or Italy..)
I hope they really know what they are doing- there are to much massproduced cars and not enough individuals around...
Talksteer said:
[quote=gottabedone] At the moment nobles imported to the US are fambricated in South Africa, assembled and trimmed in the UK and then shipped to the US for fitting of a US spec engine.
I believe that is incorrect. It is my understanding that the cars going to the US go directly to the US from Hi-Tech in South Africa as a completed car, minus the drive train only. The engine and trans are then installed in the US using a Noble/1g spec'd engine supplied by AER Mfg and miscellaneous external engine parts supplied by 1g/Snakebite. The only change in that regard going forward is that they will now have a different emblem on them when they arrive in the US, after July 2007.
Edited by caccobra on Wednesday 21st February 18:41
domcross said:
The licencing to the US makes sense I think. 1G have always 'customised' the cars for the US market and this will simply give them further control over the end product.
Can you elaborate? I've received information from 1G Racing and looked at their website. Nothing I saw there suggested that the Noble sold in the US was any different from the model sold in the UK except that it was, of course, LHD. I'm not saying that you're wrong, simply that I don't know of any customization. Do you know of any examples? TIA
Miguel
Miguel said:
domcross said:
The licencing to the US makes sense I think. 1G have always 'customised' the cars for the US market and this will simply give them further control over the end product.
Can you elaborate? I've received information from 1G Racing and looked at their website. Nothing I saw there suggested that the Noble sold in the US was any different from the model sold in the UK except that it was, of course, LHD. I'm not saying that you're wrong, simply that I don't know of any customization. Do you know of any examples? TIA
Miguel
You are correct, Miquel. 1g doesn't customize the cars. They offer a few add-on options such as an upgraded intercooler, but any real customization is done by the drivetrain installer at the instruction of the owner, after 1g delivers the car to the installer.
For those who are striving for a little concrete info' - go to www.noblecars.com and review the news page. It may answer a few basic questions at least for some.
Perhaps too much is being read into this simple tidying up/moving on move.
Maybe at the moment 1G dont customise the M12 that they sell, but perhaps they are planning to (to suit the US market), or their customers might be asking to. This deal allows them to do this (if they choose to), and Noble asking them not to call it a Noble, is commonsense, and gives 1G much more latitude. As someone pointed out Lee Noble has done this before,in the form of the Ultima, which has continued to flourish. Much like the Caterham.
As a potential owner (when I can find one) of a used 3R, I am pleased that Noble have made it clear that they are retaining the rights in the UK, and continue to supply parts for their UK and I guess European customers. No problem.
Noble seemingly have the financial backing to tread water until their M15 is ready for production. I cannot believe that the M15 will be the only Noble to appear from Noble's refurbished factory.
As a TVR owner, it seems nothing like the muddled thinking that has emanated from Blackpool. Give Lee Noble a bit more credit, he is not exactly 'wet behind the ears'.The M12, 3R, and M400 are proof of what he is capable of, but Noble cant trade off those models for ever, hence the new car, etc.
Maybe at the moment 1G dont customise the M12 that they sell, but perhaps they are planning to (to suit the US market), or their customers might be asking to. This deal allows them to do this (if they choose to), and Noble asking them not to call it a Noble, is commonsense, and gives 1G much more latitude. As someone pointed out Lee Noble has done this before,in the form of the Ultima, which has continued to flourish. Much like the Caterham.
As a potential owner (when I can find one) of a used 3R, I am pleased that Noble have made it clear that they are retaining the rights in the UK, and continue to supply parts for their UK and I guess European customers. No problem.
Noble seemingly have the financial backing to tread water until their M15 is ready for production. I cannot believe that the M15 will be the only Noble to appear from Noble's refurbished factory.
As a TVR owner, it seems nothing like the muddled thinking that has emanated from Blackpool. Give Lee Noble a bit more credit, he is not exactly 'wet behind the ears'.The M12, 3R, and M400 are proof of what he is capable of, but Noble cant trade off those models for ever, hence the new car, etc.
I took delivery of my M400 in August 2005. It had been around since June when I bought it. I was told it was one of the last then and to the best of my knowledge it was. I can't see this announcement having much impact on the market for used cars. There's been no new supply for 18 months as it is.
O.K a few things as I see it (from a ex 3R, soon 2b another 3R owner again with a waiting list order for the new car)perspective.
1: Existing M12/M400 values. Don't think they will be affected too much eitherway. The trade might get a little jumpy for a while 'til thedust settles but they are not exactly in oversupply so to the hard core they are always going to be wanted. Rest assured they won't go up in value though either, as there's no real "heritage" as such.
2:They are not in trouble at all as far as I can tell, they have a very keen American investor with big funds.
3: The new car (when it arrives)may be priced in the 75 grand bracket BUT will only be competing in performance, handling, braking etc with cars 3/4/5 times the price. We are talking over and above Merci,430,etc and into the realms of Carrera GT,Ascari,Zonda levels if not even more.
4: NOBLE, if you want to convince the non-converted FFS get some decent PR. I know we were spoilt with Simon Hucknell, but your biggest fan base is on here!
............................
all of course IMHO and of course I have been known to talk absolute :censored
1: Existing M12/M400 values. Don't think they will be affected too much eitherway. The trade might get a little jumpy for a while 'til thedust settles but they are not exactly in oversupply so to the hard core they are always going to be wanted. Rest assured they won't go up in value though either, as there's no real "heritage" as such.
2:They are not in trouble at all as far as I can tell, they have a very keen American investor with big funds.
3: The new car (when it arrives)may be priced in the 75 grand bracket BUT will only be competing in performance, handling, braking etc with cars 3/4/5 times the price. We are talking over and above Merci,430,etc and into the realms of Carrera GT,Ascari,Zonda levels if not even more.
4: NOBLE, if you want to convince the non-converted FFS get some decent PR. I know we were spoilt with Simon Hucknell, but your biggest fan base is on here!
............................
all of course IMHO and of course I have been known to talk absolute :censored
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is not the new invester, principal share holder, in Nobel the American who is the owner of 1g?
Why does the Noel web site not show a dealer in the USA?
What are Lee Nobels motives, yes he's a great engineer but where's his commerical business sense?
Why does the Noel web site not show a dealer in the USA?
What are Lee Nobels motives, yes he's a great engineer but where's his commerical business sense?
Edited by clunk click on Wednesday 21st February 22:35
AMG Merc said:
clunk click said:
What are Lee Nobels motives, yes he's a great engineer but where's his commerical business sense?
Well to be fair, Lee's never professed to be a Captain of Industry but is well know to be a damn fine automotive designer and engineer.
Totally agree, being self employed and making a product doesn't automatically give you all the skills, Lee's expertise should remain in design and the development in his product and the direction of the company should be left with the commercial experts. If they think the new M15/16 is the way forward then fair play, at least they recognise the importance of supporting at existing cars which they sold.
Dave
misterx said:
What will this do for the price of second hand M12/M400's then?
Nothing they are already worth F all so I am pleased I sold mine before the crash.This company really dont know which way they are going.It's like rallying with the co driver speaking double Dutch.The amount of times Noble told me one thing and did another weeks later leaves me no time for them. Edited by UFO 2 NOB on Wednesday 21st February 23:41
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