fuel pump issue !!
Discussion
had a major fuel pump issue this week caused by the ball valve in the vent hose sticking in the closed position , i noticed that when i went on a long run the filler cap was vacummed into the tank and when i pulled it out there was a rush of air into the tank , this has caused the pump to get noisy and tuesday night it failed !! .to fix the issue i have bought a new alloy valve from demon tweeks and repalced the hose with 8mm with a 6mm to 8mm adapter so i could fit it , lovely piece of kit .
had to repalce the pump as well so be warned if you tank is vacuming the cap on you have a issue !!
had chance to tidy up everything and clean the filter as well . Tux
had to repalce the pump as well so be warned if you tank is vacuming the cap on you have a issue !!
had chance to tidy up everything and clean the filter as well . Tux
That looks nice i think i might get one of those as a replacement, i'm still driving about without an ARV at the moment, get a wiff of fuel every now and then but at least i'm sure i am getting good fuel flow.
I did a bit of further research, the stock ones are very cheap tack but part of the problem may be that also they need to be kept completely vertical to work properly.
I did a bit of further research, the stock ones are very cheap tack but part of the problem may be that also they need to be kept completely vertical to work properly.
BobE said:
Have you fitted it upside down??? If the arrow points to the tank/filler the `Newton` script should be upside down? Just checking!
well bob to be honest there was no instructions with it and i phoned demon tweeks and i fitted it the way they said !!!! but i guess that does not garantee its the right way round !!!have to admit i sat and looked at it for a while if you blow through the valve in the direction of the arrow there is no resistance but if you blow against the arrow there is resistence ?? which way do you think is right ??
TuxMan said:
BobE said:
Have you fitted it upside down??? If the arrow points to the tank/filler the `Newton` script should be upside down? Just checking!
well bob to be honest there was no instructions with it and i phoned demon tweeks and i fitted it the way they said !!!! but i guess that does not garantee its the right way round !!!
have to admit i sat and looked at it for a while if you blow through the valve in the direction of the arrow there is no resistance but if you blow against the arrow there is resistence ?? which way do you think is right ??
The no resistance goes to the tank to allow for the loss of fuel, the resistance away from the tank is to stop a fuel leak in a roll situation. Does it still have the same resistance both ways Simon if you blow up hill so to speak...
I think we may all be wrong here...I`m involved in some discussions regarding a `Newton` valve I`ve recently bought as my tank sometimes vacuums as well. The valve I`ve got is an in line Newton 6mm/1/4" connection version from Merlin Motorsport that doesn`t require any tubing diameter changes. Like the Simons valve it came with no instructions - and no arrow on the part either. I`m still awaiting confirmation but it seems the way the valve should be mounted is vertical with the tank connection to the bottom. Which means both ways Simon has fitted the valve are wrong. I`ll re-post when I get more information - I think the first way Simon fitted the valve means it won`t prevent fuel spillage and the second way the tank could pressurise.
Right - I think I now have some answers - but I take no liability for them!.
Firstly there are two types of valve. The first which Simon has is a breather valve. It will stop fumes coming out of the tank, and allow air to go into the tank replace fuel that is used. It will also allow excess pressure in the tank to vent to atmosphere. It is NOT a roll over protection valve. The part does not need to be mounted vertically and the `tank` connection sign/arrow is because the vent/over pressure valve opening values are slightly different. My conclusion is with the valve mounted with the Newton logo upside down is correct. You should be able to hold the valve in your hand and blow through in both directions with slightly different pressures.
The valve I have is a roll over protection valve. It stops fuel escaping from the tank in a crash event when the car rolls. It is normally permanently open to allow air in and out of the tank. However the valve must be mounted vertically above the vent connection to the tank to allow it to work properly. This valve will shut off when fuel flows through it one way but allows air to go in and out in both directions. You can`t check the function by blowing through it as a plastic ball floats up with fuel to shut the valve and this won`t happen by just blowing. Confusingly it will shut off if you have it upside down and blow through it..... If I mount it in the current Noble location I would need to bring the tube from the tank filler down under it and then take a tube from the top up and then down to exit at sill level. It will then allow tank venting AND seal off against fuel - BUT if fuel ever does get down there it will be `permanently` shut which could lead to the tank pressurising since the fuel can`t drain back to the tank.
I`m now not sure what to do as I`d like both functions. There is a valve available to do this but it would need to mounted above the tank and has threaded connections. To fit it would mean removing the tank and welding in a boss and then having another threaded connection to the vent pipework. I`d also have to block up the overfill vent on the filler neck.
I also think - having looked closely at the Noble vent pipework that there is subtlety which I think means that roll over fuel loss in any volume is unlikely provided the car longitudinal axis is substantially horizontal. At least with my car. The pipe form the filler vent goes towards the car centreline beyond the inside edge of the fuel tank and then goes back across the car to outside the other edge of the tank and then down to the sill. If the car is upside down no fuel is lost as the end of the vent pipe is above the fuel level in the tank. If it`s on it`s side - say the passenger side fuel won`t flow out as the vent tube goes above the level in the tank - the centerline of the car is above the tank and so is that run of tubing. If it`s on the drivers side the vent at the end of the tube in the sill is above the fuel level so no fuel loss. Some fuel may come out due to centrigual force during a roll over and will also come out if the car ends up with front or back pointing skywards. (I also think this rationale is why the tank feed to the fuel pump goes to the centre line first so the pump is starved of fuel one way and doesn`t have enough scavenging the other way so again doesn`t pump fuel. I`m not sure without checking if there is an inertia switch fitted to Nobles).
Any help to anyone!!!!
Firstly there are two types of valve. The first which Simon has is a breather valve. It will stop fumes coming out of the tank, and allow air to go into the tank replace fuel that is used. It will also allow excess pressure in the tank to vent to atmosphere. It is NOT a roll over protection valve. The part does not need to be mounted vertically and the `tank` connection sign/arrow is because the vent/over pressure valve opening values are slightly different. My conclusion is with the valve mounted with the Newton logo upside down is correct. You should be able to hold the valve in your hand and blow through in both directions with slightly different pressures.
The valve I have is a roll over protection valve. It stops fuel escaping from the tank in a crash event when the car rolls. It is normally permanently open to allow air in and out of the tank. However the valve must be mounted vertically above the vent connection to the tank to allow it to work properly. This valve will shut off when fuel flows through it one way but allows air to go in and out in both directions. You can`t check the function by blowing through it as a plastic ball floats up with fuel to shut the valve and this won`t happen by just blowing. Confusingly it will shut off if you have it upside down and blow through it..... If I mount it in the current Noble location I would need to bring the tube from the tank filler down under it and then take a tube from the top up and then down to exit at sill level. It will then allow tank venting AND seal off against fuel - BUT if fuel ever does get down there it will be `permanently` shut which could lead to the tank pressurising since the fuel can`t drain back to the tank.
I`m now not sure what to do as I`d like both functions. There is a valve available to do this but it would need to mounted above the tank and has threaded connections. To fit it would mean removing the tank and welding in a boss and then having another threaded connection to the vent pipework. I`d also have to block up the overfill vent on the filler neck.
I also think - having looked closely at the Noble vent pipework that there is subtlety which I think means that roll over fuel loss in any volume is unlikely provided the car longitudinal axis is substantially horizontal. At least with my car. The pipe form the filler vent goes towards the car centreline beyond the inside edge of the fuel tank and then goes back across the car to outside the other edge of the tank and then down to the sill. If the car is upside down no fuel is lost as the end of the vent pipe is above the fuel level in the tank. If it`s on it`s side - say the passenger side fuel won`t flow out as the vent tube goes above the level in the tank - the centerline of the car is above the tank and so is that run of tubing. If it`s on the drivers side the vent at the end of the tube in the sill is above the fuel level so no fuel loss. Some fuel may come out due to centrigual force during a roll over and will also come out if the car ends up with front or back pointing skywards. (I also think this rationale is why the tank feed to the fuel pump goes to the centre line first so the pump is starved of fuel one way and doesn`t have enough scavenging the other way so again doesn`t pump fuel. I`m not sure without checking if there is an inertia switch fitted to Nobles).
Any help to anyone!!!!
It will prevent fuel spillage because when the valve opens it is because of a vacuum in the tank which lifts the internal mechanism or weighted ball up, so when the valve opens up to let air in and equalize pressure then any fuel gets sucked back up the pipe with the air.
Is it -6JIC? I need to order one once we find out which way round it goes, it definately shows an arrow and clearly indicated the tank side, so all you have to do presumably is make sure the tank side is connected to the pipe coming out of the tank, but it could still be put upside down, damn i'm confused now.
Is it -6JIC? I need to order one once we find out which way round it goes, it definately shows an arrow and clearly indicated the tank side, so all you have to do presumably is make sure the tank side is connected to the pipe coming out of the tank, but it could still be put upside down, damn i'm confused now.
Edited by R0162 on Thursday 14th April 13:48
Gassing Station | Noble | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff