Model 3 Performance Owners' Feedback
Discussion
Phil. said:
Thank goodness for an honest current EV review. This is the reality and what I fear about owning a Tesla or other EV for every day general use. The AC vs range decision sums up the potential EV ownership experience at the moment. The EV’s I see on the motorway are all conserving power. EV’s are probably fine as a local runabout but comparatively expensive to buy for just this role. When will the real world 500 mile range EV arrive? I’d buy one tomorrow.
We've been through this 100 times. The amount of people who need 500 mile range is minuscule, especially if you can charge at home and get up every morning with 200+ miles of range. Average annual mileage is 7k, average commute is < 40 miles.How many people do a 500 mile trip without stopping for 15 minutes to have a coffee, pee, leg stretch when they could also charge?
The way forward is surely 250-300 mile range but with smaller faster charging batteries to save weight and improve practicality?
SWoll said:
Phil. said:
Thank goodness for an honest current EV review. This is the reality and what I fear about owning a Tesla or other EV for every day general use. The AC vs range decision sums up the potential EV ownership experience at the moment. The EV’s I see on the motorway are all conserving power. EV’s are probably fine as a local runabout but comparatively expensive to buy for just this role. When will the real world 500 mile range EV arrive? I’d buy one tomorrow.
We've been through this 100 times. The amount of people who need 500 mile range is minuscule, especially if you can charge at home and get up every morning with 200+ miles of range. Average annual mileage is 7k, average commute is < 40 miles.How many people do a 500 mile trip without stopping for 15 minutes to have a coffee, pee, leg stretch when they could also charge?
The way forward is surely 250-300 mile range but with smaller faster charging batteries to save weight and improve practicality?
As for not knowing how to drive his car. Perhaps not everyone wants to have to give up driving pleasure just to maximise range. After all as many will point out it’s as fast as a McLaren F1 so it’s expected you might want to enjoy that aspect regularly without losing a huge amount of range. This is why I didn’t go for a P when I got mine as having bonkers performance seemed a little pointless.
Much like a powerful ICE though if you use the performance can’t expect maximum efficiency although EVs do seem to suffer more from this aspect. Or maybe it is perceived due to current charging limitations. If you only get 150 miles from a tank in a E63 you don’t really think about it because you just go to a petrol station 5 mins back on the road not quite so simple currently for an EV. This will change though.
Phil. said:
When will the real world 500 mile range EV arrive? I’d buy one tomorrow.
It woudlnt be tomorrow for sure.Even the most efficient EVs will struggle to hit 3.5 miles per kWh at speed, in rain, in cold, add in 5% buffer, another 5% degredation, and your lookjng at a 160kWh pack.
The Model 3 has a 75kWh pack and its the most advanced/high tech battery pack ever mass produced. For your demand of 500 miles real life range battery density have to double, definitely not going to happen tomorrow.
gangzoom said:
It woudlnt be tomorrow for sure.
Even the most efficient EVs will struggle to hit 3.5 miles per kWh at speed, in rain, in cold, add in 5% buffer, another 5% degredation, and your lookjng at a 160kWh pack.
The Model 3 has a 75kWh pack and its the most advanced/high tech battery pack ever mass produced. For your demand of 500 miles real life range battery density have to double, definitely not going to happen tomorrow.
Next year we could see 200kwh roadster and similar plaid model S with easy 500 mile range but still that is far in excess of what most people would ever need.Even the most efficient EVs will struggle to hit 3.5 miles per kWh at speed, in rain, in cold, add in 5% buffer, another 5% degredation, and your lookjng at a 160kWh pack.
The Model 3 has a 75kWh pack and its the most advanced/high tech battery pack ever mass produced. For your demand of 500 miles real life range battery density have to double, definitely not going to happen tomorrow.
I can wake up with 500km range and add 300 I less than 25min after about 6 hours driving, that's about the longest I'd ever do in a single day.
ntiz said:
Or maybe it is perceived due to current charging limitations. If you only get 150 miles from a tank in a E63 you don’t really think about it because you just go to a petrol station 5 mins back on the road not quite so simple currently for an EV. This will change though.
Am sure manufactures will continue to push crazy fast DC charging, which we all know will kill battery packs quicker, but hey that means people will have to buy new cars every few years, win win for everyone, expect maybe the planet if EVs become the ultimate disposable consumer electronic item.Oh and supplier are already lining up to take your money for crazy DC Rapid charging, if this is true than filling up a Model 3 at a 350KW Ionity charger will cost just shy of €99, for about 200 miles range at European winter M-way speeds.......All of a sudden the E63 doesn't look that expensive to run
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ntiz said:
I agree that not many need it but just for accuracy it’s not 15 mins it’s more like 45-50 mins which is quite a bit longer than a bathroom break. Add in needing say 5 stops to go to the South of France. You are talking about a sizeable inconvenience but on the other most will only do that once a year on a relaxed holiday so not such a big deal. Will put some off though.
Again, tiny number will take their cars abroad and as you say even for them most only once per year. Madness to suggest companies should focus their development to meet the needs of such a small group of potential buyers IMHO.Charging is getting faster all the time for Tesla's. The new V3 superchargers can do up to 1000mph so 15 minutes for 200+ miles (or a stop every 3-4 hours?)
The headlight and wiper issue is because a Tesla use the.cameras and not a 50p sensor. 3 years in and they’ve still not perfected it although “deep rain” algorithms is on its way. It does make me smile when they talk about FSD yet they can”t crack auto wipers. Cars before late 2016 on AP1 and before don’t have these issues. Your AP issues are the same, over hyped performance of beta software you’d never see on a German car leading to an expectation gap.when it works, great but each iteration is a bit of a lottery in terms of better or worse than the last, and where it used to work, it can stop working, subtle differences in sunlight can result in a bridge you drive u dear happily being suddenly confused with a lorry across the road and the car slamming the brakes on brake checking whoever’s behind you.
The displayed range is based on the EPA test results (ie the US standard) and not the NEDC figures. It’s an fixed rate and proportional to available kWh in the battery and not driving style etc, and nothing to do with reserves of battery etc,
In the colder weather masses of power goes into heating especially at the beginning of a journey, this can double consumption for a short while, and winter driving is generally less efficient too. The higher efficiency of an EV means any losses like these show up more noticeably. A ICE uses the engine heat, which is in effect it’s inefficiency, to heat the car, it’s something an EV can’t do as an example. The heaters in the car at full cost can be 6kw iirc, On a 30min drive they’ve consumed 3kwh. If you were driving at 40mph you’d have covered 20miles. The heaters will have added 150wh/m to consumption rate so 275 has jumped to 425. Heated seats are much better efficiency wise than cabin heater.
I’d actually say what you’re reporting is the reality and nothing wrong as such with your car.
The displayed range is based on the EPA test results (ie the US standard) and not the NEDC figures. It’s an fixed rate and proportional to available kWh in the battery and not driving style etc, and nothing to do with reserves of battery etc,
In the colder weather masses of power goes into heating especially at the beginning of a journey, this can double consumption for a short while, and winter driving is generally less efficient too. The higher efficiency of an EV means any losses like these show up more noticeably. A ICE uses the engine heat, which is in effect it’s inefficiency, to heat the car, it’s something an EV can’t do as an example. The heaters in the car at full cost can be 6kw iirc, On a 30min drive they’ve consumed 3kwh. If you were driving at 40mph you’d have covered 20miles. The heaters will have added 150wh/m to consumption rate so 275 has jumped to 425. Heated seats are much better efficiency wise than cabin heater.
I’d actually say what you’re reporting is the reality and nothing wrong as such with your car.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Thursday 31st October 04:53
Phil. said:
What’s the current thinking on EV battery life and the cost of replacement?
battery and motor in m3 has a design life of 500k miles, and an 8 year warranty, data shows the avg Tesla at 100k miles has around mid 90% of battery capacity left On avg they should easily last the life of the car for the vast majority of owners, there will be a few that don’t but then the engine on my RS3 destroyed itself at 5k miles so failure can also happen to ICE cars
In 8 years time I fully expect to see specialists that can repair battery packs
Dave Hedgehog said:
Phil. said:
What’s the current thinking on EV battery life and the cost of replacement?
battery and motor in m3 has a design life of 500k miles, and an 8 year warranty, data shows the avg Tesla at 100k miles has around mid 90% of battery capacity left On avg they should easily last the life of the car for the vast majority of owners, there will be a few that don’t but then the engine on my RS3 destroyed itself at 5k miles so failure can also happen to ICE cars
In 8 years time I fully expect to see specialists that can repair battery packs
Phil. said:
What’s the current thinking on EV battery life and the cost of replacement?
Pretty good video on that subject : https://youtu.be/UXwtlKHSefkgangzoom said:
ntiz said:
Or maybe it is perceived due to current charging limitations. If you only get 150 miles from a tank in a E63 you don’t really think about it because you just go to a petrol station 5 mins back on the road not quite so simple currently for an EV. This will change though.
Am sure manufactures will continue to push crazy fast DC charging, which we all know will kill battery packs quicker, but hey that means people will have to buy new cars every few years, win win for everyone, expect maybe the planet if EVs become the ultimate disposable consumer electronic item.Oh and supplier are already lining up to take your money for crazy DC Rapid charging, if this is true than filling up a Model 3 at a 350KW Ionity charger will cost just shy of €99, for about 200 miles range at European winter M-way speeds.......All of a sudden the E63 doesn't look that expensive to run
.[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48987775953_7767a3fcbb_c_d.jpg[/thumb]
It is of course the future though as they will of course tax petrol to be more expensive than that!!
ntiz said:
gangzoom said:
ntiz said:
Or maybe it is perceived due to current charging limitations. If you only get 150 miles from a tank in a E63 you don’t really think about it because you just go to a petrol station 5 mins back on the road not quite so simple currently for an EV. This will change though.
Am sure manufactures will continue to push crazy fast DC charging, which we all know will kill battery packs quicker, but hey that means people will have to buy new cars every few years, win win for everyone, expect maybe the planet if EVs become the ultimate disposable consumer electronic item.Oh and supplier are already lining up to take your money for crazy DC Rapid charging, if this is true than filling up a Model 3 at a 350KW Ionity charger will cost just shy of €99, for about 200 miles range at European winter M-way speeds.......All of a sudden the E63 doesn't look that expensive to run
.[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48987775953_7767a3fcbb_c_d.jpg[/thumb]
It is of course the future though as they will of course tax petrol to be more expensive than that!!
REALIST123 said:
ntiz said:
gangzoom said:
ntiz said:
Or maybe it is perceived due to current charging limitations. If you only get 150 miles from a tank in a E63 you don’t really think about it because you just go to a petrol station 5 mins back on the road not quite so simple currently for an EV. This will change though.
Am sure manufactures will continue to push crazy fast DC charging, which we all know will kill battery packs quicker, but hey that means people will have to buy new cars every few years, win win for everyone, expect maybe the planet if EVs become the ultimate disposable consumer electronic item.Oh and supplier are already lining up to take your money for crazy DC Rapid charging, if this is true than filling up a Model 3 at a 350KW Ionity charger will cost just shy of €99, for about 200 miles range at European winter M-way speeds.......All of a sudden the E63 doesn't look that expensive to run
.[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48987775953_7767a3fcbb_c_d.jpg[/thumb]
It is of course the future though as they will of course tax petrol to be more expensive than that!!
Yes I am that 0.5% who really do big miles. Last week I did 2,500 miles. Next week meeting in Düsseldorf week after in Budapest.
SWoll said:
I'd suggest you're more like the 0.005% doing that kind of mileage. 2500 in a week 
, that's a third of the national yearly average in the UK..
Indeed. Whatever happened to the Information Tech revolution; wasn’t that supposed to make such things unnecessary? , that's a third of the national yearly average in the UK..Seems ridiculous these days to spend 35 hours or more in a week driving.
RobDickinson said:
Phil. said:
Thank goodness for an honest current EV review.
Um 4 out of 11 points are EV related and those are all about range and mostly because the Op doesnt have a clue how to drive an EV.AC/heater wont have a significant impact on large battery EVs.
te.110 wh/m? No chance. Turn all batery drains off that you can, and it's 250 wh/m.
A/c won't significantly impact range? Talk s
te.Don't have a clue how to drive an EV? That's not the point of this post. The point are my observations of real world living - I didn't get the car to baby it around and not put the heated seats on.
SWoll said:
Surprises me how little research some people do before a purchase?
Car is on a 2 year lease so I probably do less research than if I was to buy it. Overall, I'm happy with the car and it's just my daily driver for a 26 mile commute. So the EV issues won't affect me. Point of the post was to see if other people are having some of the same issues or if I've got a lemon. Looks like the feedback is pretty consistent though.
REALIST123 said:
SWoll said:
I'd suggest you're more like the 0.005% doing that kind of mileage. 2500 in a week , that's a third of the national yearly average in the UK..
Indeed. Whatever happened to the Information Tech revolution; wasn’t that supposed to make such things unnecessary? , that's a third of the national yearly average in the UK..Seems ridiculous these days to spend 35 hours or more in a week driving.
My industry is quite old fashioned though everyone expects face to face and I find I get more done in an hour with a customer or supplier than months by email.
Plus there is quite a lot of dodgy goings on so customers like to go to meet socially as well to make sure you aren't a t
t. To be fair if I'm lying about my products people could die.Don't have a clue how to drive an EV? That's not the point of this post. The point are my observations of real world living - I didn't get the car to baby it around and not put the heated seats on.
[/quote]
So much this!
Why should you have to change the whole way you drive because you bought a Tesla? If the concept falls apart because of using it in a normal fashion that is not the users fault its the cars inability to meet expectations in the real world. Obviously that hasn't happened you are clearly still happy with it.
But find the concept that when you get a Tesla you should change the way you drive and deal with your car a bizarre concept. If you bought any other car and were told not to use the heated seats or heating and you now have to coast 2 miles before a corner you would say that's a s
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