Tesla unlikely to Survive (Vol. 3)
Discussion
vikingaero said:
soupdragon1 said:
You have to laugh at their ability to get away with this. But its also very clever. Throw up some general communication on your website, and let the flying monkeys misinterpret the data and present it far and wide as proof of Tesla being the safest. A lie told often enough becomes the truth, and that's why Tesla don't advertise - they need to tell the truth when they advertise and the truth gets in the way of the story.
It's cultural. You have a figurehead who is wealthy enough to engineer what he wants, yet on another level is a monumental narcissistic bell end. And that culture is copied by the company and those who work there.According to evangelists like Dave, the market just doesn't get Tesla. It's the only game in town but his huge flaw is that he skips over the fact that the market does get Tesla, all Trillion dollars of it and where to from here. Robots apparently, and he has the gaul to suggest unless Amazon buy an army of them their business is screwed too. All of this before we see one (which isn't a person in lycra).
ZesPak said:
TheDeuce said:
I'm just waiting for the first EV range rover! Looks like it won't be here before I have to hand back the iPace, sadly.
Rivian R1S seems like a good candidate 
Looking like the first EV will be a velar equivalent... Then shortly after the proper rangey will be transferred to a new EV platform - apparently.
TheDeuce said:
...Looking like the first EV will be a velar equivalent... Then shortly after the proper rangey will be transferred to a new EV platform - apparently.
Will they not leave the FFRR a hybrid? And same with the Disco perhaps. Not sure a full electric FFRR is what the buyers will want.
hyphen said:
TheDeuce said:
...Looking like the first EV will be a velar equivalent... Then shortly after the proper rangey will be transferred to a new EV platform - apparently.
Will they not leave the FFRR a hybrid? And same with the Disco perhaps. Not sure a full electric FFRR is what the buyers will want.
I expect the FFRR will have an true range of 300miles so enough for virtually all drivers to need a break sufficient to add charge.
I can't think of any other way in which electrication doesn't suit the car tbh. It'll be smoother, lean less in the corners, faster, torqiuer, improved ground clearance, improved wading depth, less susceptible to mud/moisture ingress when off roading, more extreme tip point due to lower CoG, quieter, pollute less. These are all areas they have improved incrementally over decades, now about to take a big step forward in one go.
hyphen said:
Not sure a full electric FFRR is what the buyers will want.
As before, I believe the halo effect of electric cars is real. And the uber luxury brands like Bentley and Rolls Royce will only enforce that.No-one I know ever bought a RR because of the interesting powertrain or exhaust note either. Tell them they can have something that goes like stink without stinking an costing less than 1 GBP/mile, they'll flock to it.
Towing ability might be the only thing holding some buyers back.
I think if you are being chauffered, then electric Rolls is fine, but they also do models designed for owners to drive, and some UK buyers, and cultures/petrol costs in other countries will want ICE still, or hybrid.
Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
hyphen said:
I think if you are being chauffered, then electric Rolls is fine, but they also do models designed for owners to drive, and some UK buyers, and cultures/petrol costs in other countries will want ICE still, or hybrid.
Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
And car companies hate catering to the tastes of old farts - it's a lot of effort to appease an audience which then goes and dies anyway (very harsh, but I assure you it's true...)Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
Change is coming regardless, JLR are just hoping to develop a little USP by getting their first I suppose.
Do people really enjoy the fact that their Range Rover is ICE? They're not performance cars are they? You can't throw them around and enjoy the experience... In every way EV will make them even more refined AND actually help them become more sporty I expect.
I think this is more likely how the change will be sold and accepted by the middle classes:
ZesPak said:
Tell them they can have something that goes like stink without stinking an costing less than 1 GBP/mile, they'll flock to it.
The ONLY not cool thing from a middle class perspective about driving a Range Rover to date is the criticism for pollution and inefficiency. EV absolutely doesn't solve all that, but it's an improvement and they will welcome that.hyphen said:
I think if you are being chauffered, then electric Rolls is fine, but they also do models designed for owners to drive, and some UK buyers, and cultures/petrol costs in other countries will want ICE still, or hybrid.
So? How is a Rolls to drive? Would powerful, immense torque, smooth, heavy be the best descriptions?Or are these owners looking for a high revving engine coupled to a manual gearbox?
No-one I've ever met wants hybrid BTW.
hyphen said:
Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
As The Deuce pointed out above, they do spend a lot of money but it's annoying to cater to them as they die.There's a reason the A class, 1-series, A3,... were developed in the past couple of decades, they noticed that there's such a thing like brand loyalty and invested a lot in grabbing their audience young.
Anyway, from the horses mouth:
It's happening, the investment is being made at JLR and the new course of the ship is now established. Everyone needs to get used to it very quickly because the current Range Rover is almost certainly the last to have a primary ICE powerplant, even in hybrid form. After that they may continue hybrid as an option, but I would expect it to be primarily an EV with a relatively small ICE unit to act as a range extender. They certainly won't want to go in to another model generation and have half the cars on the EV platform and the other half on ICE (the EV platform can't support ICE).
Jaguar to be zero ICE by 2025
Land Rover to offer EV for all vehicles by 2030, final hybrids killed off 2035 (due to legislation) if not before.
I suppose it is kind of shocking/exciting news to consider a marque such as Land Rover giving up on internal combustion. We're used to big truck = big engine.. But we are now racing towards the ICE bans and these sort of stories and targets are going to come thick and fast. In a little over a decade no one will be able to produce or sell (as new) any car with an ICE in the UK. That means countless well known car models are already in their final ICE form and at the next revision will have to move to EV. This also now applies to vans too, so no more diesel transits will be registered in just 13 years time. I think time will fly for the manufacturers and us as car fans. Interesting times...
JLR said:
ALL-ELECTRIC LAND ROVERS FROM 2024
From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers, including Range Rover.
And some detail here: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/354302/new-ja...From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers, including Range Rover.
It's happening, the investment is being made at JLR and the new course of the ship is now established. Everyone needs to get used to it very quickly because the current Range Rover is almost certainly the last to have a primary ICE powerplant, even in hybrid form. After that they may continue hybrid as an option, but I would expect it to be primarily an EV with a relatively small ICE unit to act as a range extender. They certainly won't want to go in to another model generation and have half the cars on the EV platform and the other half on ICE (the EV platform can't support ICE).
Jaguar to be zero ICE by 2025
Land Rover to offer EV for all vehicles by 2030, final hybrids killed off 2035 (due to legislation) if not before.
I suppose it is kind of shocking/exciting news to consider a marque such as Land Rover giving up on internal combustion. We're used to big truck = big engine.. But we are now racing towards the ICE bans and these sort of stories and targets are going to come thick and fast. In a little over a decade no one will be able to produce or sell (as new) any car with an ICE in the UK. That means countless well known car models are already in their final ICE form and at the next revision will have to move to EV. This also now applies to vans too, so no more diesel transits will be registered in just 13 years time. I think time will fly for the manufacturers and us as car fans. Interesting times...
Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 15th February 13:29
TheDeuce said:
Anyway, from the horses mouth:
This is a surprise, thought only the Japanese were still pursuing Hydrogen for cars.JLR said:
ALL-ELECTRIC LAND ROVERS FROM 2024
From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers, including Range Rover.
And some detail here: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/354302/new-ja...From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers, including Range Rover.
that article said:
Alongside all-encompassing electrification, JLR will also invest heavily in the hydrogen economy, with hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in the company's plans, prototypes of which will begin rolling on UK roads the next 12 months.
hyphen said:
TheDeuce said:
Anyway, from the horses mouth:
This is a surprise, thought only the Japanese were still pursuing Hydrogen for cars.JLR said:
ALL-ELECTRIC LAND ROVERS FROM 2024
From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers, including Range Rover.
And some detail here: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/354302/new-ja...From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers, including Range Rover.
that article said:
Alongside all-encompassing electrification, JLR will also invest heavily in the hydrogen economy, with hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in the company's plans, prototypes of which will begin rolling on UK roads the next 12 months.
Personally I don't see hydrogen ever becoming mainstream in personal transport terms. It's just too complex vs BEV and the only benefited, improved range/refill times, is only an issue for a tiny % of car owners in the first place.
hyphen said:
I think if you are being chauffered, then electric Rolls is fine, but they also do models designed for owners to drive, and some UK buyers, and cultures/petrol costs in other countries will want ICE still, or hybrid.
Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
Even the drivers models almost entirely isolate you from everything going on outside of the cabin. I mean, you know it's a 6L twin turbo V12, but only academically. Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
gregs656 said:
hyphen said:
I think if you are being chauffered, then electric Rolls is fine, but they also do models designed for owners to drive, and some UK buyers, and cultures/petrol costs in other countries will want ICE still, or hybrid.
Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
Even the drivers models almost entirely isolate you from everything going on outside of the cabin. I mean, you know it's a 6L twin turbo V12, but only academically. Remember that a lot of luxury barge drivers are old, and old people hate change
Do you expect a Rolls driver to drink Greggs coffee amongst the tracksuit plebs and shiny suited paper salesmen whilst waiting for the car to charge?
hyphen said:
The M1 services don't have exec lounges with valet parkimg and good coffee.
Do you expect a Rolls driver to drink Greggs coffee amongst the tracksuit plebs and shiny suited paper salesmen whilst waiting for the car to charge?
Have you actually ever owned an EV for any stretch of time or been near one?Do you expect a Rolls driver to drink Greggs coffee amongst the tracksuit plebs and shiny suited paper salesmen whilst waiting for the car to charge?
ZesPak said:
Have you actually ever owned an EV for any stretch of time or been near one?
Owned? Not yet and open to owning one on future. Been near lots.There were three Model 3s parked up at the services on the M3 East Sunday early evening, and all were still there after I'd been in, been to the loo, had a starbucks toasties and coffee to eat in, and then got on my way with a grab bag of Eclairs from whsmith
The services had long lines of Tesla chargers (15 ish), and over half were covered with a sign saying 'coming soon'.
Think only 3 non tesla chargers and were all taken with 1 car queueing.
hyphen said:
The M1 services don't have exec lounges with valet parkimg and good coffee.
Do you expect a Rolls driver to drink Greggs coffee amongst the tracksuit plebs and shiny suited paper salesmen whilst waiting for the car to charge?
They don't go to special petrol forecourts either...Do you expect a Rolls driver to drink Greggs coffee amongst the tracksuit plebs and shiny suited paper salesmen whilst waiting for the car to charge?
In any case, the range on an electric RR is going to be significant. The cost of the batteries doesn't matter and the weight of them doesn't matter.
hyphen said:
Owned? Not yet and open to owning one on future. Been near lots.
There were three Model 3s parked up at the services on the M3 East Sunday early evening, and all were still there after I'd been in, been to the loo, had a starbucks toasties and coffee to eat in, and then got on my way with a grab bag of Eclairs from whsmith
The services had long lines of Tesla chargers (15 ish), and over half were covered with a sign saying 'coming soon'.
Think only 3 non tesla chargers and were all taken with 1 car queueing.
The point is that if you own an EV for any length of time, you don't need to go and fill up almost... ever.There were three Model 3s parked up at the services on the M3 East Sunday early evening, and all were still there after I'd been in, been to the loo, had a starbucks toasties and coffee to eat in, and then got on my way with a grab bag of Eclairs from whsmith
The services had long lines of Tesla chargers (15 ish), and over half were covered with a sign saying 'coming soon'.
Think only 3 non tesla chargers and were all taken with 1 car queueing.
Unless you don't have a driveway.
And if you do need a fill up for something further than let's say 500km (as if you wouldn't do such a stretch by plane), you have a nice RR to stay in for 15 min.
gregs656 said:
hyphen said:
The M1 services don't have exec lounges with valet parkimg and good coffee.
Do you expect a Rolls driver to drink Greggs coffee amongst the tracksuit plebs and shiny suited paper salesmen whilst waiting for the car to charge?
They don't go to special petrol forecourts either...Do you expect a Rolls driver to drink Greggs coffee amongst the tracksuit plebs and shiny suited paper salesmen whilst waiting for the car to charge?
In any case, the range on an electric RR is going to be significant. The cost of the batteries doesn't matter and the weight of them doesn't matter.
The driver will make sure it's charged same as they make sure ICE RR's are re-fuelled. They'll do that before their boss gets in each morning.
soupdragon1 said:
The problem is, Tesla aren't that safe. They spin some dodgy numbers as 'general communication' on their website, and let the share monkeys spread the message far and wide
Sorry, I should have specified. I was referring to crash test results. Not dodgy numbers and stats that get thrown around by Tesla etc. Tesla's in general actually score well in crash tests and get a 5 star NHTSA score and IIHS score it as a "Top Safety Pick +" model. Though to be fair, IIHS score pretty much everything on sale today as a Top Safety Pick or Top Safety Pick+ anyway.... Based on crash worthiness and ability to minimize injury, Tesla does score well.
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