Tesla unlikely to Survive (Vol. 3)
Discussion
To be fair, here in the US prices are completely crazy (mentioned earlier today about a Taycan 4S with 10k miles on it is going for $143k at my local dealer - thats something like $30k OVER book). So Tesla arent the only ones that are profiteering during this time.
However, it does undermine the whole 'direct to customer' model. Claims of transparent pricing and passing on the saving to the consumer just arent there. Have their core costs dramatically increased in the last 12 months? Maybe, but pretty much other OEM has been able to keep MSRP at or around the same price says a lot. Of course, everyone keeps claiming that Tesla is fully vertically integrated now - so they make their own stuff and arent reliant on third parties - and havent been impacted by the supply of chips as a result. But that isnt shown by missing features and modules and if they control everything so much, why did the price go up? Have their manufacturing costs jumped? Did they give their production line employees a big pay rise?
Given the claims from some - fully integrated, produce their own parts and have a dramatically simpler production process - this doesnt add up. Prices have jumped a lot and its pure profiteering. But Tesla is saving the planet right? Oh wait....
And I know I am being particularly difficult on this. A business needs to make money and if there is scope for a price increase, you can be sure as hell they will take advantage of it. Its just the way that this is pushed aside that bothers me. Munroe goes on and on about how efficient Tesla is in their production process. Yet they dont pass on the cost saving to consumers. Mmmmm, crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things? Yup. Should we expect them to do anything else? Probably not. Lets stop saying that Tesla is some how perfect, they are just another crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things.
However, it does undermine the whole 'direct to customer' model. Claims of transparent pricing and passing on the saving to the consumer just arent there. Have their core costs dramatically increased in the last 12 months? Maybe, but pretty much other OEM has been able to keep MSRP at or around the same price says a lot. Of course, everyone keeps claiming that Tesla is fully vertically integrated now - so they make their own stuff and arent reliant on third parties - and havent been impacted by the supply of chips as a result. But that isnt shown by missing features and modules and if they control everything so much, why did the price go up? Have their manufacturing costs jumped? Did they give their production line employees a big pay rise?
Given the claims from some - fully integrated, produce their own parts and have a dramatically simpler production process - this doesnt add up. Prices have jumped a lot and its pure profiteering. But Tesla is saving the planet right? Oh wait....
And I know I am being particularly difficult on this. A business needs to make money and if there is scope for a price increase, you can be sure as hell they will take advantage of it. Its just the way that this is pushed aside that bothers me. Munroe goes on and on about how efficient Tesla is in their production process. Yet they dont pass on the cost saving to consumers. Mmmmm, crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things? Yup. Should we expect them to do anything else? Probably not. Lets stop saying that Tesla is some how perfect, they are just another crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things.
Smiljan said:
UK prices have increased again £43990 for the cheapest Tesla now.
It was £40490 just a year ago. Not forgetting unlike other auto makers, you can't negotiate the price with Tesla nor the trade in value.
They're beginning to look very, very expensive. Totally against their ethos and mission statement.
Lots of Model Y already on the used market and 3's falling below £35k asking price. Strangely though prices of older Model S' have firmed up with high mileage ones still listed for silly money. They don't seem to be selling though, many have been on Autotrader for a very long time.
It'll be interesting to see what they charge for German and Texas made Model Y - in theory they should be cheaper as they're touted as being much cheaper to make. We'll see.
When you say "Lots of Model Y already on the used market" when I look on AT I see only vehicles being offered for rather over list. Are you seeing something different?It was £40490 just a year ago. Not forgetting unlike other auto makers, you can't negotiate the price with Tesla nor the trade in value.
They're beginning to look very, very expensive. Totally against their ethos and mission statement.
Lots of Model Y already on the used market and 3's falling below £35k asking price. Strangely though prices of older Model S' have firmed up with high mileage ones still listed for silly money. They don't seem to be selling though, many have been on Autotrader for a very long time.
It'll be interesting to see what they charge for German and Texas made Model Y - in theory they should be cheaper as they're touted as being much cheaper to make. We'll see.
In terms of Model 3, I can see at least one (a 2019) for £35k with 35k miles, which is about 19% off today's new price, but that price has gone up of course since 2019. So depreciation seems pretty low.
off_again said:
To be fair, here in the US prices are completely crazy (mentioned earlier today about a Taycan 4S with 10k miles on it is going for $143k at my local dealer - thats something like $30k OVER book). So Tesla arent the only ones that are profiteering during this time.
However, it does undermine the whole 'direct to customer' model. Claims of transparent pricing and passing on the saving to the consumer just arent there. Have their core costs dramatically increased in the last 12 months? Maybe, but pretty much other OEM has been able to keep MSRP at or around the same price says a lot. Of course, everyone keeps claiming that Tesla is fully vertically integrated now - so they make their own stuff and arent reliant on third parties - and havent been impacted by the supply of chips as a result. But that isnt shown by missing features and modules and if they control everything so much, why did the price go up? Have their manufacturing costs jumped? Did they give their production line employees a big pay rise?
Given the claims from some - fully integrated, produce their own parts and have a dramatically simpler production process - this doesnt add up. Prices have jumped a lot and its pure profiteering. But Tesla is saving the planet right? Oh wait....
And I know I am being particularly difficult on this. A business needs to make money and if there is scope for a price increase, you can be sure as hell they will take advantage of it. Its just the way that this is pushed aside that bothers me. Munroe goes on and on about how efficient Tesla is in their production process. Yet they dont pass on the cost saving to consumers. Mmmmm, crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things? Yup. Should we expect them to do anything else? Probably not. Lets stop saying that Tesla is some how perfect, they are just another crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things.
Raw material prices have gone up and Tesla are buying those from the same market as everyone else. Nickel trading was halted this week when it jumped 400%. A lot of material comes from Russia so it’s going to push up prices as the amount of supply on the market falls. However, it does undermine the whole 'direct to customer' model. Claims of transparent pricing and passing on the saving to the consumer just arent there. Have their core costs dramatically increased in the last 12 months? Maybe, but pretty much other OEM has been able to keep MSRP at or around the same price says a lot. Of course, everyone keeps claiming that Tesla is fully vertically integrated now - so they make their own stuff and arent reliant on third parties - and havent been impacted by the supply of chips as a result. But that isnt shown by missing features and modules and if they control everything so much, why did the price go up? Have their manufacturing costs jumped? Did they give their production line employees a big pay rise?
Given the claims from some - fully integrated, produce their own parts and have a dramatically simpler production process - this doesnt add up. Prices have jumped a lot and its pure profiteering. But Tesla is saving the planet right? Oh wait....
And I know I am being particularly difficult on this. A business needs to make money and if there is scope for a price increase, you can be sure as hell they will take advantage of it. Its just the way that this is pushed aside that bothers me. Munroe goes on and on about how efficient Tesla is in their production process. Yet they dont pass on the cost saving to consumers. Mmmmm, crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things? Yup. Should we expect them to do anything else? Probably not. Lets stop saying that Tesla is some how perfect, they are just another crappy corporate company doing crappy corporate things.
off_again said:
However, it does undermine the whole 'direct to customer' model. Claims of transparent pricing and passing on the saving to the consumer just arent there. Have their core costs dramatically increased in the last 12 months? Maybe, but pretty much other OEM has been able to keep MSRP at or around the same price says a lot.
Have to disagree here.Their transparent pricing means that the price you see on the website is the price everyone gets.
Other brands' margin to negotiate just dissolved and you'd be none the wiser.
skwdenyer said:
Smiljan said:
UK prices have increased again £43990 for the cheapest Tesla now.
It was £40490 just a year ago. Not forgetting unlike other auto makers, you can't negotiate the price with Tesla nor the trade in value.
They're beginning to look very, very expensive. Totally against their ethos and mission statement.
Lots of Model Y already on the used market and 3's falling below £35k asking price. Strangely though prices of older Model S' have firmed up with high mileage ones still listed for silly money. They don't seem to be selling though, many have been on Autotrader for a very long time.
It'll be interesting to see what they charge for German and Texas made Model Y - in theory they should be cheaper as they're touted as being much cheaper to make. We'll see.
When you say "Lots of Model Y already on the used market" when I look on AT I see only vehicles being offered for rather over list. Are you seeing something different?It was £40490 just a year ago. Not forgetting unlike other auto makers, you can't negotiate the price with Tesla nor the trade in value.
They're beginning to look very, very expensive. Totally against their ethos and mission statement.
Lots of Model Y already on the used market and 3's falling below £35k asking price. Strangely though prices of older Model S' have firmed up with high mileage ones still listed for silly money. They don't seem to be selling though, many have been on Autotrader for a very long time.
It'll be interesting to see what they charge for German and Texas made Model Y - in theory they should be cheaper as they're touted as being much cheaper to make. We'll see.
In terms of Model 3, I can see at least one (a 2019) for £35k with 35k miles, which is about 19% off today's new price, but that price has gone up of course since 2019. So depreciation seems pretty low.
Don't get me wrong, having had a Model 3 if you don't require regular access to supercharging I'd seriously consider one of the alternatives but I wouldn't say pricing looks out of step with the rest of the market personally?
SWoll said:
skwdenyer said:
Smiljan said:
UK prices have increased again £43990 for the cheapest Tesla now.
It was £40490 just a year ago. Not forgetting unlike other auto makers, you can't negotiate the price with Tesla nor the trade in value.
They're beginning to look very, very expensive. Totally against their ethos and mission statement.
Lots of Model Y already on the used market and 3's falling below £35k asking price. Strangely though prices of older Model S' have firmed up with high mileage ones still listed for silly money. They don't seem to be selling though, many have been on Autotrader for a very long time.
It'll be interesting to see what they charge for German and Texas made Model Y - in theory they should be cheaper as they're touted as being much cheaper to make. We'll see.
When you say "Lots of Model Y already on the used market" when I look on AT I see only vehicles being offered for rather over list. Are you seeing something different?It was £40490 just a year ago. Not forgetting unlike other auto makers, you can't negotiate the price with Tesla nor the trade in value.
They're beginning to look very, very expensive. Totally against their ethos and mission statement.
Lots of Model Y already on the used market and 3's falling below £35k asking price. Strangely though prices of older Model S' have firmed up with high mileage ones still listed for silly money. They don't seem to be selling though, many have been on Autotrader for a very long time.
It'll be interesting to see what they charge for German and Texas made Model Y - in theory they should be cheaper as they're touted as being much cheaper to make. We'll see.
In terms of Model 3, I can see at least one (a 2019) for £35k with 35k miles, which is about 19% off today's new price, but that price has gone up of course since 2019. So depreciation seems pretty low.
Don't get me wrong, having had a Model 3 if you don't require regular access to supercharging I'd seriously consider one of the alternatives but I wouldn't say pricing looks out of step with the rest of the market personally?
In these terms, compared to Tesla's own stated goals, it is expensive.
JonChalk said:
The comparison is fair (& by the way, Car magazine rated the EV6 above the MY in recent group test), but the conversation started in the context of Tesla boasting about a $35k M3 not many years ago.
In these terms, compared to Tesla's own stated goals, it is expensive.
A lot has happened since that statement, seems more sensible to judge based on the above context to me. In these terms, compared to Tesla's own stated goals, it is expensive.
Look at the trouble Rivian have recently got themselves into around pricing..
SSG1000 said:
A question: does anyone know the real world mileage of a model 3 (standard range) vs the likes of a e-tron?
250 miles appears easy enough to accomplish based on tests I've seen. Our etron 55 might manage 220 in the summer but has been hovering around 180 for the past few months.SWoll said:
I'm also not convinced by the 'very, very expensive' comment. A single motor Kia EV6 or Polestar 2 is going to cost you £40-50k dependent on spec with an AWD model of both costing £45-53k. The singe motor i4 starts at £52k and very quickly gets to £55k+ with a few options.
Don't get me wrong, having had a Model 3 if you don't require regular access to supercharging I'd seriously consider one of the alternatives but I wouldn't say pricing looks out of step with the rest of the market personally?
In the context you mention I’d say they’re all very expensive. In the context of what makes up a Tesla and how they’re made (particularly using cheap Chinese labour) I think they’re very expensive.Don't get me wrong, having had a Model 3 if you don't require regular access to supercharging I'd seriously consider one of the alternatives but I wouldn't say pricing looks out of step with the rest of the market personally?
Mass production and new tech in both batteries and construction was supposed to vastly reduce costs making them affordable to more people and “accelerating the transition” - what in fact has happened is prices have risen and they’ve become much less affordable.
Either this is deliberate to make their profit margin bigger so certain individuals meets their targets and gain personal wealth OR external costs and production issues have increased costs to a point where they simply have to be passed on to customers and hence decelerating the transition as it were.
Only the end of year accounts may show which it is.
While Sandy Munro flagellates himself in awe of their lean build processes and savings the reality is the cars are 10% more expensive than last year.
If the company was more transparent and less reliant on a drug addled meme creator tweeting their business then perhaps many of us would be less skeptical about their motives.
All this without even mentioning the self driving bulls
t they keep insisting on pedalling despite telling regulators that it is no such thing and will always beed human intervention.I realise this comes across as totally negative but I am in awe of what they’ve achieved whilst at the same time I’m confused and concerned about some of their behaviour.
Again, I feel it’s time for Musk to take a back seat and concentrate on his giant rocket and let the adults take control of Tesla from now on. It just won’t happen though. I hope the time he spends at Tesla doesn’t ultimately lead to the Starship project turning into a giant cash gobbling white elephant. I really want to see that thing land on the Moon in my lifetime.
Ps - the other post about used Model Y on Autotrader - 15 on there already. They’ve only just come out!
Edited by Smiljan on Saturday 12th March 15:11
Edited by Smiljan on Saturday 12th March 15:11
Smiljan said:
SWoll said:
I'm also not convinced by the 'very, very expensive' comment. A single motor Kia EV6 or Polestar 2 is going to cost you £40-50k dependent on spec with an AWD model of both costing £45-53k. The singe motor i4 starts at £52k and very quickly gets to £55k+ with a few options.
Don't get me wrong, having had a Model 3 if you don't require regular access to supercharging I'd seriously consider one of the alternatives but I wouldn't say pricing looks out of step with the rest of the market personally?
Don't get me wrong, having had a Model 3 if you don't require regular access to supercharging I'd seriously consider one of the alternatives but I wouldn't say pricing looks out of step with the rest of the market personally?
Smiljan said:
In the context you mention I’d say they’re all very expensive. In the context of what makes up a Tesla and how they’re made (particularly using cheap Chinese labour) I think they’re very expensive.
Yeah, like no other manufacturers use Chinese labour. 
Smiljan said:
Mass production and new tech in both batteries and construction was supposed to vastly reduce costs making them affordable to more people and “accelerating the transition” - what in fact has happened is prices have risen and they’ve become much less affordable.
Just carry on ignoring:- VW and Ford CEOs praising Tesla.
- The macro environment.
- The fact that no existing auto giant took electrification of road transport seriously until Tesla.
Smiljan said:
Either this is deliberate to make their profit margin bigger so certain individuals meets their targets and gain personal wealth OR external costs and production issues have increased costs to a point where they simply have to be passed on to customers and hence decelerating the transition as it were.
Because an industry leading profit margin is a bad thing </s>. Smiljan said:
Only the end of year accounts may show which it is.
They've been doing exceedingly well!Smiljan said:
While Sandy Munro flagellates himself in awe of their lean build processes and savings the reality is the cars are 10% more expensive than last year.
See above - macro., plus no demand issues.Smiljan said:
If the company was more transparent and less reliant on a drug addled meme creator tweeting their business then perhaps many of us would be less skeptical about their motives.
They publish their prices on their website - none of the usual BS of dealer negotiation and mark-ups.Smiljan said:
All this without even mentioning the self driving bullst they keep insisting on pedalling despite telling regulators that it is no such thing and will always beed human intervention.
No one is compelled to buy it.t they keep insisting on pedalling despite telling regulators that it is no such thing and will always beed human intervention.Smiljan said:
I realise this comes across as totally negative but I am in awe of what they’ve achieved whilst at the same time I’m confused and concerned about some of their behaviour.
Concerned? 
I don't think Tesla or EM give a $hit what you or I think. Smiljan said:
Again, I feel it’s time for Musk to take a back seat and concentrate on his giant rocket and let the adults take control of Tesla from now on. It just won’t happen though. I hope the time he spends at Tesla doesn’t ultimately lead to the Starship project turning into a giant cash gobbling white elephant. I really want to see that thing land on the Moon in my lifetime.
I'm sure Tesla will thank you for the free management consultancy. 
Smiljan said:
Ps - the other post about used Model Y on Autotrader - 15 on there already. They’ve only just come out!
The cheapest is £56k and the rest are around £60k or more.. a new one is around £55k.. but so what?ZesPak said:
Have to disagree here.
Their transparent pricing means that the price you see on the website is the price everyone gets.
Other brands' margin to negotiate just dissolved and you'd be none the wiser.
I know, I am being a bit of a dick here.Their transparent pricing means that the price you see on the website is the price everyone gets.
Other brands' margin to negotiate just dissolved and you'd be none the wiser.
It just jars with the whole narrative of “Tesla has innovated on the production process” and “Tesla can make cars cheaper than anyone else” or the “Tesla is fully vertically integrated so isnt impacted by chip supply”. The list goes on. We are spun a story that Tesla has cracked everything - from large pressings to simpler interiors to everything is on the screen so no buttons stuff. They are perfect and are so much better than any other OEM…. Yet still increase the prices? Something isnt quite adding up to me. And yes, they at least have accurate pricing on their website, even if it is changing relatively frequently. That’s a positive and at least consumers dont have to negotiate with the sales person on this.
I personally know of at least 2 buyers who wanted to buy Teslas only to either rock up at a service location or check on their website only to find that their prices had gone up. One walked, as it was outside of their budget - and didnt buy anything. The other paid the increased price, but felt they had been duped. But they do have people lining up to buy cars and their delivery delays can be long. So its clearly not affecting things. I just find the whole thing another example of the narrative being set by fanboys which doesnt quite match with the reality.
off_again said:
I personally know of at least 2 buyers who wanted to buy Teslas only to either rock up at a service location or check on their website only to find that their prices had gone up. One walked, as it was outside of their budget - and didnt buy anything. The other paid the increased price, but felt they had been duped.
I had a test drive of a model S in late 2014 I think it was, and had quite a long chat with sales guy. Went on website when I got home and saw all the prices and packages were different from what the salesman had told me. Then I realised / discovered that all the prices had changed the day before (a Friday) but the salesman didn’t know. The following Monday they changed again. Put me right offSmiljan said:
You really don’t have to defend every point I made, it’s just my opinion that’s all.
Almost seems like you’re a little desperate after all you’ve lost hundreds of thousands on TSLA so far this year. Must sting a bit.
I thought I'd take 5 mins to respond (yes that's as long as it took) to counter the nonsense you posted, point-by-point.Almost seems like you’re a little desperate after all you’ve lost hundreds of thousands on TSLA so far this year. Must sting a bit.
I've 'lost' about £700k but since my average price per share is so low, i'm still up around 1000% at the moment.
off_again said:
ZesPak said:
Have to disagree here.
Their transparent pricing means that the price you see on the website is the price everyone gets.
Other brands' margin to negotiate just dissolved and you'd be none the wiser.
I know, I am being a bit of a dick here.Their transparent pricing means that the price you see on the website is the price everyone gets.
Other brands' margin to negotiate just dissolved and you'd be none the wiser.
It just jars with the whole narrative of “Tesla has innovated on the production process” and “Tesla can make cars cheaper than anyone else” or the “Tesla is fully vertically integrated so isnt impacted by chip supply”. The list goes on. We are spun a story that Tesla has cracked everything - from large pressings to simpler interiors to everything is on the screen so no buttons stuff. They are perfect and are so much better than any other OEM…. Yet still increase the prices? Something isnt quite adding up to me. And yes, they at least have accurate pricing on their website, even if it is changing relatively frequently. That’s a positive and at least consumers dont have to negotiate with the sales person on this.
I personally know of at least 2 buyers who wanted to buy Teslas only to either rock up at a service location or check on their website only to find that their prices had gone up. One walked, as it was outside of their budget - and didnt buy anything. The other paid the increased price, but felt they had been duped. But they do have people lining up to buy cars and their delivery delays can be long. So its clearly not affecting things. I just find the whole thing another example of the narrative being set by fanboys which doesnt quite match with the reality.
With respect to the experience of pricing, that can be off-putting but I don't think it's any worse to dealers and their antics using the traditional business model.
TameBritishMuslim said:
I thought I'd take 5 mins to respond (yes that's as long as it took) to counter the nonsense you posted, point-by-point.
I've 'lost' about £700k but since my average price per share is so low, i'm still up around 1000% at the moment.
To be fair it's longer than I took writing that drivel I've 'lost' about £700k but since my average price per share is so low, i'm still up around 1000% at the moment.
Have a good evening TBM
Smiljan said:
TameBritishMuslim said:
I thought I'd take 5 mins to respond (yes that's as long as it took) to counter the nonsense you posted, point-by-point.
I've 'lost' about £700k but since my average price per share is so low, i'm still up around 1000% at the moment.
To be fair it's longer than I took writing that drivel I've 'lost' about £700k but since my average price per share is so low, i'm still up around 1000% at the moment.
Have a good evening TBM
Some interesting news of relevance:
Tesla will pay conscripted Ukrainian employees up to 3 months:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
BMW to recall more than 1 million vehicles over engine fire risk:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09...
https://www.autobodynews.com/index.php/southwester...
Tesla will pay conscripted Ukrainian employees up to 3 months:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
BMW to recall more than 1 million vehicles over engine fire risk:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09...
Burwood said:
Two giant, empty factories with no plans to equip them.
And the second giant factory is due to open 7th April with a 'Gigafest' event for up to 15,000 people:https://www.autobodynews.com/index.php/southwester...
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