Does (did?) Tesla have the right idea?
Discussion
we're now a few weeks into Model Y ownership and I think that I have got the whole design and USP of Tesla 3/Y figured out... it's really an anti-car car. Don't misunderstand me, it seems to be reasonably well put together (not as well as it should be for the money, but not badly put together) and a reasonably inoffensive design. It is really in all senses of the word automotive mediocrity or the automotive equivalent of 'elevator-muzak' bland/inoffensive that no-one actually likes but is not bad enough to change the channel.
I do like a lot of things about the Y but as a design it's all a little anonymous - and that's fine: by being that way (and pitching it as a premium product cf. Apple products) it doesn't elicit strong feelings either way (a little like the colour choices of most cars these days) which, when added to the admittedly excellent software, makes it weirdly desirable.
Am I wrong?
I do like a lot of things about the Y but as a design it's all a little anonymous - and that's fine: by being that way (and pitching it as a premium product cf. Apple products) it doesn't elicit strong feelings either way (a little like the colour choices of most cars these days) which, when added to the admittedly excellent software, makes it weirdly desirable.
Am I wrong?
DodgyGeezer said:
when added to the admittedly excellent software, makes it weirdly desirable.
Am I wrong?
Yes. You are in the honeymoon period. After a while you will come to loathe the poorly written software and terrible human factors and long for a simple button to put on your foglights or a rotary dial to turn the temperature up and down etc....Am I wrong?
Order66 said:
Yes. You are in the honeymoon period. After a while you will come to loathe the poorly written software and terrible human factors and long for a simple button to put on your foglights or a rotary dial to turn the temperature up and down etc....
I think this is a generational thing, as I have yet to get bored of it after 10 months. It's definitely a car with the younger generation in mind, but often priced so only the older generation can afford it, ergo you get this split opinion online.Basically; old farts and technology don't mix.
Zcd1 said:
After almost 5 years driving one, I still marvel at how clever the car and its systems are.
Our new Genesis GV60 is fancier, but not as cleverly designed.
My Model 3P is my favorite of all the cars I’ve owned in 40+ years of driving.
I’d be interested to know how you’re getting on with the Genesis? I’m considering changing my 2020 M3P but struggling to find anything that I think will be as good, like you I love the M3P, it’s a great car.Our new Genesis GV60 is fancier, but not as cleverly designed.
My Model 3P is my favorite of all the cars I’ve owned in 40+ years of driving.
Edited by Zcd1 on Saturday 28th January 05:55
C.A.R. said:
Basically; old farts and technology don't mix.
ok i’ll bite. Old farts and technology mix fine, but only when the technology is demonstrably better than the thing(s)/activity(ies) it replaces. Young inexperienced people will tolerate objectively worse solutions either because they don’t know any better and/or because there’s kudos in doing so….Order66 said:
Yes. You are in the honeymoon period. After a while you will come to loathe the poorly written software and terrible human factors and long for a simple button to put on your foglights or a rotary dial to turn the temperature up and down etc....
It was test driving a Polestar yesterday that made me realise I haven’t used the glovebox in my Model 3 in the three years I’ve owned it. fiesta_STage3 said:
C.A.R. said:
Basically; old farts and technology don't mix.
ok i’ll bite. Old farts and technology mix fine, but only when the technology is demonstrably better than the thing(s)/activity(ies) it replaces. Young inexperienced people will tolerate objectively worse solutions either because they don’t know any better and/or because there’s kudos in doing so….Are they better because they're tactile and easier to use on a bumpy road? This is often the reason given, but how often are you adjusting your cabin temperature on a journey? Once or twice, I imagine. So either do it when stationary at a junction or on a smooth road where vibrations and bumps are not a problem - or use voice commands.
It becomes a user preference to have physical buttons and knobs. But this does not equate to "better", it is purely opinion-based. Functionally; they do the same.
C.A.R. said:
But therein lies the problem; define how knobs and buttons are 'better'. Functionally they both do the same thing. Arguably a screen can be more functional, as it allows layers of menus and sub-menus whereas buttons are fixed to do one task, forever.
Are they better because they're tactile and easier to use on a bumpy road? This is often the reason given, but how often are you adjusting your cabin temperature on a journey? Once or twice, I imagine. So either do it when stationary at a junction or on a smooth road where vibrations and bumps are not a problem - or use voice commands.
It becomes a user preference to have physical buttons and knobs. But this does not equate to "better", it is purely opinion-based. Functionally; they do the same.
There are whole fields of academic endeavour (Human Iteraction) plus in many industries tracing back for the last 50 years that disagree with what you say here - you must surely know that and so are arguing for fun. Are they better because they're tactile and easier to use on a bumpy road? This is often the reason given, but how often are you adjusting your cabin temperature on a journey? Once or twice, I imagine. So either do it when stationary at a junction or on a smooth road where vibrations and bumps are not a problem - or use voice commands.
It becomes a user preference to have physical buttons and knobs. But this does not equate to "better", it is purely opinion-based. Functionally; they do the same.
Edited by fiesta_STage3 on Thursday 2nd February 12:34
for a silly HVAC related example - based on a terrible citroen hire car. Ignition started, car in reverse gear. AC starts blowing FULL POWER. i want to stop the AC. Tablet takes 20 seconds to boot up, and then is fixed to rear camera view because reverse gear is selected. I have to take the car out of reverse gear to select another screen to then stop the AC, to then select reverse gear again.
Granted, that may argued as an example of a terrible screen layout rather than screen-as-buttons per se, and may even be argued as fixed by modified user behaviour, but the discussion line is blurred and i remain adamant it’s not better than what came before we jettisoned historic learning to optimize for product iteration.
Granted, that may argued as an example of a terrible screen layout rather than screen-as-buttons per se, and may even be argued as fixed by modified user behaviour, but the discussion line is blurred and i remain adamant it’s not better than what came before we jettisoned historic learning to optimize for product iteration.
Some equate different for better, Musk is one
Lots think the singl;e screen and few physical buttons is better, but on a screen with at time 90 different software buttons on it, not feedback and the buttons randomly moving between software releases is not better. Other makes have followed and the reviews all talk about missing things like physical climate control buttons, or something like the idrive controller to aid navigation.
I'm nearly 8 years into ownership and if i didn;t have a business related to the brand, or effectively free supercharging, I think I'd have given up years ago.
The irony about the "not a drivers car" is the straight line performance. It's tapped into a world of talentless drivers who equate driving godness with the ability to burn somebody off at the traffic lights.
Lots think the singl;e screen and few physical buttons is better, but on a screen with at time 90 different software buttons on it, not feedback and the buttons randomly moving between software releases is not better. Other makes have followed and the reviews all talk about missing things like physical climate control buttons, or something like the idrive controller to aid navigation.
I'm nearly 8 years into ownership and if i didn;t have a business related to the brand, or effectively free supercharging, I think I'd have given up years ago.
The irony about the "not a drivers car" is the straight line performance. It's tapped into a world of talentless drivers who equate driving godness with the ability to burn somebody off at the traffic lights.
C.A.R. said:
But therein lies the problem; define how knobs and buttons are 'better'. Functionally they both do the same thing. Arguably a screen can be more functional, as it allows layers of menus and sub-menus whereas buttons are fixed to do one task, forever.
Are they better because they're tactile and easier to use on a bumpy road? This is often the reason given, but how often are you adjusting your cabin temperature on a journey? Once or twice, I imagine. So either do it when stationary at a junction or on a smooth road where vibrations and bumps are not a problem - or use voice commands.
It becomes a user preference to have physical buttons and knobs. But this does not equate to "better", it is purely opinion-based. Functionally; they do the same.
Nonsense on so many levels. The key advantage to physical is they can be used by feel alone. Being easier to use on a bumpy road is one thing, but the ability to adjust something without taking your eyes from the road is more important.Are they better because they're tactile and easier to use on a bumpy road? This is often the reason given, but how often are you adjusting your cabin temperature on a journey? Once or twice, I imagine. So either do it when stationary at a junction or on a smooth road where vibrations and bumps are not a problem - or use voice commands.
It becomes a user preference to have physical buttons and knobs. But this does not equate to "better", it is purely opinion-based. Functionally; they do the same.
It's also not true to say a physical control can only perform one function - its use can be contextual. Take something simple like the volume control in a "old tech" car Most of the time it is used for volume control, but is also used to configure sound settings. fade/balance etc. Take a look at the keyboard you may well have typed your post on. Shift/Control buttons act as function modifiers.
Functionally a touch screen may get you to the same endpoint but that doesn't mean it gets you there as efficiently or as safely. As a colleague of mine once said "Use the correct tool for anyjob, the correct tool for any job is a hammer, any tool can be used as a hammer"
egomeister said:
Nonsense on so many levels.
Entire post is opinion-based and that's fine, but you can't dismiss an alternative opinion as 'nonsense' just because it doesn't suit your "hot take". Nobody disagreeing with why physical controls are better is able to offer anything other than an opinion-based response.How many buttons does your mobile phone have? How many buttons did a mobile phone of the 1990s have?
How many crashes have been caused by people taking their eyes off the road to adjust the cabin temperature on a touch-screen only car vs those with physical controls? There are lots about, so we can't say for certain it's zero, but it's definitely not endemic!
For those with touch-screen only who are familiar with their own car and have the muscle-memory to know where the controls are or the wherewithal to use voice commands, this isn't a problem. I maintain that the only people complaining about it in their own cars are of the older generation and less willing to accept change.
C.A.R. said:
Entire post is opinion-based and that's fine, but you can't dismiss an alternative opinion as 'nonsense' just because it doesn't suit your "hot take". Nobody disagreeing with why physical controls are better is able to offer anything other than an opinion-based response.
How many buttons does your mobile phone have? How many buttons did a mobile phone of the 1990s have?
How many crashes have been caused by people taking their eyes off the road to adjust the cabin temperature on a touch-screen only car vs those with physical controls? There are lots about, so we can't say for certain it's zero, but it's definitely not endemic!
For those with touch-screen only who are familiar with their own car and have the muscle-memory to know where the controls are or the wherewithal to use voice commands, this isn't a problem. I maintain that the only people complaining about it in their own cars are of the older generation and less willing to accept change.
No, I can dismiss it as "nonsense" because your "hot-take" is "garbage"How many buttons does your mobile phone have? How many buttons did a mobile phone of the 1990s have?
How many crashes have been caused by people taking their eyes off the road to adjust the cabin temperature on a touch-screen only car vs those with physical controls? There are lots about, so we can't say for certain it's zero, but it's definitely not endemic!
For those with touch-screen only who are familiar with their own car and have the muscle-memory to know where the controls are or the wherewithal to use voice commands, this isn't a problem. I maintain that the only people complaining about it in their own cars are of the older generation and less willing to accept change.
You suggested that physical controls could only do one thing, I demonstrated that was clearly not true. Other posters have cited fields of study centred on how people interact with controls which you also conveniently ignore.
The key reasons the likes of Tesla have gone down the touchscreen route is cost and development time. Fiddly little buttons all over the place cost a fortune to design and manufacture, and you have to roughly know what you want to do with them upfront. Touchscreen means you can manufacture one relatively simple part and fix it in software later.
There are some areas where touchscreens and visual controls excel, and some where they don't. The optimum configuration will likely be a hybrid between the two. Perhaps consider an industry where they really study this stuff:
Have you spent time in a Tesla or are you talking in general?
If you’ve ever hit a sudden bank of daytime fog on a motorway in one you’d know buttons are better.
On a Model 3 it’s 4 touchscreen presses in 4 different places to turn on the fogs, none of which can be done with your eyes on the road.
It’s very clearly bad and dangerous design, and I speak as someone who likes the car otherwise.
The sequence is show the controls menu, find and select the lights menu, find and slide the auto lights to manual (because it’s daylight the lights are off, even in fog), and finally turn in the fogs.
If you’ve ever hit a sudden bank of daytime fog on a motorway in one you’d know buttons are better.
On a Model 3 it’s 4 touchscreen presses in 4 different places to turn on the fogs, none of which can be done with your eyes on the road.
It’s very clearly bad and dangerous design, and I speak as someone who likes the car otherwise.
The sequence is show the controls menu, find and select the lights menu, find and slide the auto lights to manual (because it’s daylight the lights are off, even in fog), and finally turn in the fogs.
giveitfish said:
Have you spent time in a Tesla or are you talking in general?
If you’ve ever hit a sudden bank of daytime fog on a motorway in one you’d know buttons are better.
On a Model 3 it’s 4 touchscreen presses in 4 different places to turn on the fogs, none of which can be done with your eyes on the road.
It’s very clearly bad and dangerous design, and I speak as someone who likes the car otherwise.
The sequence is show the controls menu, find and select the lights menu, find and slide the auto lights to manual (because it’s daylight the lights are off, even in fog), and finally turn in the fogs.
Nah, you can get it down to 3 but that does involve flashing your headlights which you can do without taking your eyes off the road to bring up the lights submenuIf you’ve ever hit a sudden bank of daytime fog on a motorway in one you’d know buttons are better.
On a Model 3 it’s 4 touchscreen presses in 4 different places to turn on the fogs, none of which can be done with your eyes on the road.
It’s very clearly bad and dangerous design, and I speak as someone who likes the car otherwise.
The sequence is show the controls menu, find and select the lights menu, find and slide the auto lights to manual (because it’s daylight the lights are off, even in fog), and finally turn in the fogs.
Of course we also have the "automative high beam and automative wipers" when engaging autopilot - that was a step in the wrong direction given the perpensity to wipe the windscreen when its bone dry or wipe at 300 wipes a second if there's a dead fly on the screen (and of course I could stop and remove every dead fly on the windscreen to make it work and its clearly operator error should such a fly decide to die on my windscreen and I should have swerved to miss it)
I just don't understand all the negative comments about the screen. One scroll button on the steering wheel will give you access to voice control and in my experience, that works really well for most functions I'll ever need whilst driving.
Edit to say: And to my eyes, cars with 'normal' dashboards look really cluttered and messy to me now; switches, dials, buttons, air vents etc all over the place
Edit to say: And to my eyes, cars with 'normal' dashboards look really cluttered and messy to me now; switches, dials, buttons, air vents etc all over the place
Edited by CharlieAlphaMike on Friday 3rd February 13:45
DodgyGeezer said:
we're now a few weeks into Model Y ownership and I think that I have got the whole design and USP of Tesla 3/Y figured out... it's really an anti-car car. Don't misunderstand me, it seems to be reasonably well put together (not as well as it should be for the money, but not badly put together) and a reasonably inoffensive design. It is really in all senses of the word automotive mediocrity or the automotive equivalent of 'elevator-muzak' bland/inoffensive that no-one actually likes but is not bad enough to change the channel.
I do like a lot of things about the Y but as a design it's all a little anonymous - and that's fine: by being that way (and pitching it as a premium product cf. Apple products) it doesn't elicit strong feelings either way (a little like the colour choices of most cars these days) which, when added to the admittedly excellent software, makes it weirdly desirable.
Am I wrong?
from what I see in PH, Tesla seem to be a marmiteI do like a lot of things about the Y but as a design it's all a little anonymous - and that's fine: by being that way (and pitching it as a premium product cf. Apple products) it doesn't elicit strong feelings either way (a little like the colour choices of most cars these days) which, when added to the admittedly excellent software, makes it weirdly desirable.
Am I wrong?
have my Model 3 for about 6 months, not a big fan on the interior initially, but start growing on my after a month
now I could not go back to my i3 or even traditional Kia
I do wish there would be knob for temp, as I am very sensitive to inside temp, but overall I like the big screen especially for sat nav
egomeister said:
No, I can dismiss it as "nonsense" because your "hot-take" is "garbage"
Ah, now my opinion is garbage, but I'm still entitled to it, just as you are to yours. Neither of us is "right", but one of us can at least see that there is quite a big distinction between driving a passenger car you are going to be very familiar with vs trying to fly a commercial airplane. The two are so similar!Studies have been cited? What studies? Anyone can say on the internet with confidence that 'Studies have been made to prove my point'. That's not citing something specific, that's stabbing around in the dark for justification in the hope that there's probably a study out there that has been done. Manufacturers of cars get slated for it - particularly by the older motoring press I might add - but consumers are lapping it up.
I maintain the old man shouts at tablet opinion.
giveitfish said:
Have you spent time in a Tesla or are you talking in general?
If you’ve ever hit a sudden bank of daytime fog on a motorway in one you’d know buttons are better.
I had this when I encountered fog on the moors on holiday. One key advantage of having a sense of self-preservation was that I slowed right down (y'know, because of the fog) which meant that momentarily taking my eyes off of the road for what is actually just 2 presses, 3 if you want the front fogs on too, I didn't feel like I was putting my own life of that of my family in peril, no.If you’ve ever hit a sudden bank of daytime fog on a motorway in one you’d know buttons are better.
Granted, it wouldn't be ideal if you weren't familiar with how to get to them and you had to try to figure it out on the move or on a motorway as you suggest. But you'd hope if it were your own car you'd have an understanding of where the controls are, for the couple of dozen times a year they're actually needed.
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