M3 LR DM owners - Real world range?
Discussion
I think I can see where C70R is coming from as it sounds as if his use case is very similar to mine:
Drive 125 miles from home to work, park up at work (nowhere to charge)
Do meetings etc.
Drive 125 miles from work back home.
in those circumstances, "just stopping for 15 minutes" is annoying. It turns "if I leave at 1600 I can be away from London before the traffic gets silly and home just after six" into "Oh well, I may as well make this a two day trip because by the time I've stopped on the way home to charge the M25 will be into gridlock".
This is where the concept of "You have to stop every couple of hours so that's all the range you need" tends to break down. If I get in the car at 0600 I can generally be in my office by 0830, maybe 0900 if the traffic isn't nice. That's the "couple of hours" everyone says you can do without needing to stop. However, there is no charging in the work car park, so the car needs to get home on whatever charge it arrived with. Hence it needs twice the range that people keep saying is "enough".
I can remember a good ten years ago discussing this with an early EV proponent who was dead set against the idea of spending the available budget on equipping the workplace car park with 13-amp sockets at every couple of spaces. He insisted nobody would want to charge that slowly and the only solution was a much smaller number of 7kW chargepoints (I think back then we could have had a run of 13A sockets installed along every row of the carpark for about the same cost as four or five of the 7kW chargepoints). My argument was that someone who does even six hours in the office (i.e. 1000-1600) can still pull in about 40 miles of charge, which is often the "tipping point" for a variety of journeys to be done on electric:
Drive 125 miles from home to work, park up at work (nowhere to charge)
Do meetings etc.
Drive 125 miles from work back home.
in those circumstances, "just stopping for 15 minutes" is annoying. It turns "if I leave at 1600 I can be away from London before the traffic gets silly and home just after six" into "Oh well, I may as well make this a two day trip because by the time I've stopped on the way home to charge the M25 will be into gridlock".
This is where the concept of "You have to stop every couple of hours so that's all the range you need" tends to break down. If I get in the car at 0600 I can generally be in my office by 0830, maybe 0900 if the traffic isn't nice. That's the "couple of hours" everyone says you can do without needing to stop. However, there is no charging in the work car park, so the car needs to get home on whatever charge it arrived with. Hence it needs twice the range that people keep saying is "enough".
I can remember a good ten years ago discussing this with an early EV proponent who was dead set against the idea of spending the available budget on equipping the workplace car park with 13-amp sockets at every couple of spaces. He insisted nobody would want to charge that slowly and the only solution was a much smaller number of 7kW chargepoints (I think back then we could have had a run of 13A sockets installed along every row of the carpark for about the same cost as four or five of the 7kW chargepoints). My argument was that someone who does even six hours in the office (i.e. 1000-1600) can still pull in about 40 miles of charge, which is often the "tipping point" for a variety of journeys to be done on electric:
- The PHEV with a (then) 30-mile range, can now do a 60-mile round trip on electric
- The 24 kWh "city car" can now do a 100-mile round-trip on electric
- The 64kWh motorway cruiser can stretch itself to a 250-mile round trip.
But in your case you have to charge literally 15 mins. If you left home with 1/2 tank fuel, you’d have to refuel anyway so it’s unlikely you’d be much slower with EV as with ICE. Or, you have to be organised and fuel the night before so you can make the trip in one go.
It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
jonathan_roberts said:
But in your case you have to charge literally 15 mins. If you left home with 1/2 tank fuel, you’d have to refuel anyway so it’s unlikely you’d be much slower with EV as with ICE. Or, you have to be organised and fuel the night before so you can make the trip in one go.
It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
This is where the EVangelist argument just falls apart, honestly, it just weakens the argument to try. Bear in mind I've had EVs; you may have missed the bit where I mentioned it (I bought one in 2013 and another a couple of years later). I'm no stranger to the faff of having my charge cable locked in a post, or getting out in the pouring rain to prod at the rubbish touch screen on an Ecotricity chargepoint while trying to hold the CCS connector up so it would maintain a connection.It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
Arguing that driving in the EV is no different to setting off with 1/2 tank of fuel is just stretching - both C70 and I do the trip maybe once or twice a month. So unless we somehow totally and utterly fail to fill up when we are pottering around at home, that is not a situation that can arise and there's no organising the night before to be done. Trying to argue that an ICE has faff on a daily basis is a similar stretch. The ICE car goes in for a service once a year, just like the EV.
C70 asked if the journey was practical with a particular car, and the answer has to be "only if you change how you drive". There's no point trying to convince people that something will work for them when it won't, that just leads to disillusionment. Better to concentrate on the 90% of journeys where it's no an issue (my other half probably never exceeds 50 on the motorway, so I suspect she could - eventually - do the 250 mile round trip on one charge. But I also don't believe she has driven more than 50 miles in one go in her entire life, so practically speaking a Nissan Leaf Gen 1 with a degraded battery is all she needs!
Just to clarify, this isn't a commute. This is just a trip that will happen a couple of times a month, where it would be ideal to avoid charging if possible.
I'm getting the sense that I'm probably asking too much to do it comfortably, which was a hypothesis coming into this, so I may as well just buy the cheaper car.
I'm getting the sense that I'm probably asking too much to do it comfortably, which was a hypothesis coming into this, so I may as well just buy the cheaper car.
Flooble said:
jonathan_roberts said:
But in your case you have to charge literally 15 mins. If you left home with 1/2 tank fuel, you’d have to refuel anyway so it’s unlikely you’d be much slower with EV as with ICE. Or, you have to be organised and fuel the night before so you can make the trip in one go.
It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
This is where the EVangelist argument just falls apart, honestly, it just weakens the argument to try. Bear in mind I've had EVs; you may have missed the bit where I mentioned it (I bought one in 2013 and another a couple of years later). I'm no stranger to the faff of having my charge cable locked in a post, or getting out in the pouring rain to prod at the rubbish touch screen on an Ecotricity chargepoint while trying to hold the CCS connector up so it would maintain a connection.It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
Arguing that driving in the EV is no different to setting off with 1/2 tank of fuel is just stretching - both C70 and I do the trip maybe once or twice a month. So unless we somehow totally and utterly fail to fill up when we are pottering around at home, that is not a situation that can arise and there's no organising the night before to be done. Trying to argue that an ICE has faff on a daily basis is a similar stretch. The ICE car goes in for a service once a year, just like the EV.
C70 asked if the journey was practical with a particular car, and the answer has to be "only if you change how you drive". There's no point trying to convince people that something will work for them when it won't, that just leads to disillusionment. Better to concentrate on the 90% of journeys where it's no an issue (my other half probably never exceeds 50 on the motorway, so I suspect she could - eventually - do the 250 mile round trip on one charge. But I also don't believe she has driven more than 50 miles in one go in her entire life, so practically speaking a Nissan Leaf Gen 1 with a degraded battery is all she needs!
“of having my charge cable locked in a post, or getting out in the pouring rain to prod at the rubbish touch screen on an Ecotricity chargepoint while trying to hold the CCS connector up so it would maintain a connection.”
LOL All the problems you list are associated with poverty level EVing. A 15 min charge to do a monthly journey is trivial. Arguing anything else is “a stretch”.
Kind regards.
C70R said:
Just to clarify, this isn't a commute. This is just a trip that will happen a couple of times a month, where it would be ideal to avoid charging if possible.
I'm getting the sense that I'm probably asking too much to do it comfortably, which was a hypothesis coming into this, so I may as well just buy the cheaper car.
You may as well. Generally well established that unless it’s a company car and you’re saving on benefit in kind, EV (in England anyway) is a great way to get around but it’s not a money saving exercise.I'm getting the sense that I'm probably asking too much to do it comfortably, which was a hypothesis coming into this, so I may as well just buy the cheaper car.
CharlieAlphaMike said:
C70R said:
Selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest.
Really? I think you're trying to think of more excuses not to buy. On the move, you won't be selecting gears. The only time you'll use this function is when you park or manoeuvre in and out of a tight space and that will only be a fraction of your driving time. Flooble said:
jonathan_roberts said:
But in your case you have to charge literally 15 mins. If you left home with 1/2 tank fuel, you’d have to refuel anyway so it’s unlikely you’d be much slower with EV as with ICE. Or, you have to be organised and fuel the night before so you can make the trip in one go.
It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
This is where the EVangelist argument just falls apart, honestly, it just weakens the argument to try. Bear in mind I've had EVs; you may have missed the bit where I mentioned it (I bought one in 2013 and another a couple of years later). I'm no stranger to the faff of having my charge cable locked in a post, or getting out in the pouring rain to prod at the rubbish touch screen on an Ecotricity chargepoint while trying to hold the CCS connector up so it would maintain a connection.It’s not always as clear cut as you think. And honestly you save those 15mins by not having all the faff associated with running an ICE on a daily basis. Oil change/service, refuelling in a specified place etc.
Arguing that driving in the EV is no different to setting off with 1/2 tank of fuel is just stretching - both C70 and I do the trip maybe once or twice a month. So unless we somehow totally and utterly fail to fill up when we are pottering around at home, that is not a situation that can arise and there's no organising the night before to be done. Trying to argue that an ICE has faff on a daily basis is a similar stretch. The ICE car goes in for a service once a year, just like the EV.
C70 asked if the journey was practical with a particular car, and the answer has to be "only if you change how you drive". There's no point trying to convince people that something will work for them when it won't, that just leads to disillusionment. Better to concentrate on the 90% of journeys where it's no an issue (my other half probably never exceeds 50 on the motorway, so I suspect she could - eventually - do the 250 mile round trip on one charge. But I also don't believe she has driven more than 50 miles in one go in her entire life, so practically speaking a Nissan Leaf Gen 1 with a degraded battery is all she needs!
Ta.
lifeboat22 said:
CharlieAlphaMike said:
C70R said:
Selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest.
Really? I think you're trying to think of more excuses not to buy. On the move, you won't be selecting gears. The only time you'll use this function is when you park or manoeuvre in and out of a tight space and that will only be a fraction of your driving time. jonathan_roberts said:
C70R said:
Just to clarify, this isn't a commute. This is just a trip that will happen a couple of times a month, where it would be ideal to avoid charging if possible.
I'm getting the sense that I'm probably asking too much to do it comfortably, which was a hypothesis coming into this, so I may as well just buy the cheaper car.
You may as well. Generally well established that unless it’s a company car and you’re saving on benefit in kind, EV (in England anyway) is a great way to get around but it’s not a money saving exercise.I'm getting the sense that I'm probably asking too much to do it comfortably, which was a hypothesis coming into this, so I may as well just buy the cheaper car.
Unless you drive it like it’s stolen I would be very surprised if you can’t manage a 250 mile round trip all the time. I have a MY LR so not sure exactly how comparable it is to a M3 but 300 miles is the norm for me on a journey that is a mix of motorways, a bit of 40-60mph A/B roads and a bit of urban crawl.
C70R said:
Crikey. Ok.
Seems like there are wildly differing experiences here.
Not wildly - but it's definitely on the limit. Most owners don't really like going below 20% - it's like your reserve tank warning light going off. Running out of volts is far more dramatic in an EV.... flatbed recovery etc. Seems like there are wildly differing experiences here.
I have a 21 LR and would definitely have another, I think it's great for what I want it to do. A 250 mile round trip wouldn't bother me at all, but I probably would factor in a 10 minute fast charge in cold weather.
AVB said:
20% is being very cautious imo. The sat nav prediction is very accurate so if it says I will get somewhere with 10%remaining I am happy to go with it. 5% as well if I really didn’t want to stop. Saying that my bladder dictates when I stop not charging.
Maybe.I had a puncture in my 3LR when I first had it. 5 hours later, I had a new tyre. It was a very long wait for a flatbed.... I now carry a spare.
Running out of volts would be equally disastrous, whilst I have driven to below 10% (knowing I am about to arrive at home), I get a bit twitchy once I hit 20% left.... the battery symbol turns to orange at that point too.
Flooble said:
Arguing that driving in the EV is no different to setting off with 1/2 tank of fuel is just stretching - both C70 and I do the trip maybe once or twice a month. So unless we somehow totally and utterly fail to fill up when we are pottering around at home, that is not a situation that can arise and there's no organising the night before to be done. Trying to argue that an ICE has faff on a daily basis is a similar stretch. The ICE car goes in for a service once a year, just like the EV.
I'm kind of in a similar postion but I took the decision I'd stop for 15 mins on my twice per month trip to get the benefits of and EV for the other 28 days per month. You come on here asking for advice and then abuse people who try to help or share an opinion by calling them a "thicko" or a "plank". You also tell people not to bother replying with what you consider to be "a spectacularly unhelpful response" when this person was at least trying to do something to help you. Regardless of how helpful or not YOU thought this was, it didn't warrant you abusing the person who tried to help.
And if this wasn't an excuse not to buy "selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest", what was it?
Good luck with whatever car you buy (hopefully it won't be a Tesla) but if need any more help from anyone, I suggest you look elsewhere. I might actually suggest you take your own advice: "so I may as well just buy the cheaper car" and if that car happens to be an EV, take your comments "to one of the many other EV threads" because I for one will at least not have to be subjected to you calling me a "plank" again.
Goodbye!
And if this wasn't an excuse not to buy "selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest", what was it?
Good luck with whatever car you buy (hopefully it won't be a Tesla) but if need any more help from anyone, I suggest you look elsewhere. I might actually suggest you take your own advice: "so I may as well just buy the cheaper car" and if that car happens to be an EV, take your comments "to one of the many other EV threads" because I for one will at least not have to be subjected to you calling me a "plank" again.
Goodbye!
CharlieAlphaMike said:
You come on here asking for advice and then abuse people who try to help or share an opinion by calling them a "thicko" or a "plank". You also tell people not to bother replying with what you consider to be "a spectacularly unhelpful response" when this person was at least trying to do something to help you. Regardless of how helpful or not YOU thought this was, it didn't warrant you abusing the person who tried to help.
And if this wasn't an excuse not to buy "selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest", what was it?
Good luck with whatever car you buy (hopefully it won't be a Tesla) but if need any more help from anyone, I suggest you look elsewhere. I might actually suggest you take your own advice: "so I may as well just buy the cheaper car" and if that car happens to be an EV, take your comments "to one of the many other EV threads" because I for one will at least not have to be subjected to you calling me a "plank" again.
Goodbye!
You came onto a thread where I was asking about potential real-world range of an impending purchase, only to tell me that I was "making excuses" because I didn't like the facelift model?And if this wasn't an excuse not to buy "selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest", what was it?
Good luck with whatever car you buy (hopefully it won't be a Tesla) but if need any more help from anyone, I suggest you look elsewhere. I might actually suggest you take your own advice: "so I may as well just buy the cheaper car" and if that car happens to be an EV, take your comments "to one of the many other EV threads" because I for one will at least not have to be subjected to you calling me a "plank" again.
Goodbye!
You didn't post anything remotely helpful. You didn't even attempt to answer my question.
And now you're having a tantrum, and telling me you hope I don't buy a Telsa (
), because I called you out on it?Do run along.
C70R said:
CharlieAlphaMike said:
You come on here asking for advice and then abuse people who try to help or share an opinion by calling them a "thicko" or a "plank". You also tell people not to bother replying with what you consider to be "a spectacularly unhelpful response" when this person was at least trying to do something to help you. Regardless of how helpful or not YOU thought this was, it didn't warrant you abusing the person who tried to help.
And if this wasn't an excuse not to buy "selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest", what was it?
Good luck with whatever car you buy (hopefully it won't be a Tesla) but if need any more help from anyone, I suggest you look elsewhere. I might actually suggest you take your own advice: "so I may as well just buy the cheaper car" and if that car happens to be an EV, take your comments "to one of the many other EV threads" because I for one will at least not have to be subjected to you calling me a "plank" again.
Goodbye!
You came onto a thread where I was asking about potential real-world range of an impending purchase, only to tell me that I was "making excuses" because I didn't like the facelift model?And if this wasn't an excuse not to buy "selecting 'gears' via the screen was the tipping point for me, to be honest", what was it?
Good luck with whatever car you buy (hopefully it won't be a Tesla) but if need any more help from anyone, I suggest you look elsewhere. I might actually suggest you take your own advice: "so I may as well just buy the cheaper car" and if that car happens to be an EV, take your comments "to one of the many other EV threads" because I for one will at least not have to be subjected to you calling me a "plank" again.
Goodbye!
You didn't post anything remotely helpful. You didn't even attempt to answer my question.
And now you're having a tantrum, and telling me you hope I don't buy a Telsa (
), because I called you out on it?Do run along.
Let me now help you with some good advice. Your journey of ~250 miles. 150 miles of which is motorway, with the remainder being a mix of 50/60mph A-roads (70 miles) and urban stop/start traffic (30 miles), probably won't be achievable in the real world, without at least one stop for a charge so I don't think a Tesla Model 3 LR will be the right car for you. This is especially true if the car will be parked for any length of time, especially with Sentry (which nobody else has mentioned so far as I can see) switched on.
You might be able to do the journey in the latest Model 3 Highland LR (not 100% guaranteed though) because the aero is much improved but you'll have to select gears via the screen and that is a tipping point for you so I guess that car isn't an option.
HTH.
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