Are Lexus just rebadged Toyotas?
Poll: Are Lexus just rebadged Toyotas?
Total Members Polled: 253
Discussion
Super Sonic said:
kurokawa said:
also
Toyota Alphard <=> Lexus LM
Toyota Auris/Corolla/Pruis(3rd Gen)/RAV4(4th Gen) <=> Lexus CT/NX(First Gen)
Toyota Carmy <=> Lexus ES
Toyota C-HR <=> Lexus UX
Toyota Crown <=> Lexus LS
Toyota Harrier - Lexus RXToyota Alphard <=> Lexus LM
Toyota Auris/Corolla/Pruis(3rd Gen)/RAV4(4th Gen) <=> Lexus CT/NX(First Gen)
Toyota Carmy <=> Lexus ES
Toyota C-HR <=> Lexus UX
Toyota Crown <=> Lexus LS
Toyota Land cruiser - Lexus VX
All built on the same GMT400 series pickup truck platform, with the same engine and transmission options.
Desiderata said:
Nothing new.
It has been going on for years.
Indeed. Since Sloan consolidated much of the American car industry under the holding company General Motors.It has been going on for years.
(In the same way that Ford was the founder of modern assembly manufacturing, Sloan was the founder of modern management)
Edited by wisbech on Sunday 6th February 06:02
Dingu said:
I’m aware of the point you are going for. It’s just so astonishingly silly.
OP brings us branding works shocker. Next week oxygen supports life….
Posters on PH are more interested in and more knowledgeable about cars so I wondered whether they were more savvy to brand manipulation or perhaps more invested in it. OP brings us branding works shocker. Next week oxygen supports life….
Dingu said:
Esceptico said:
You seem so fixated on the perceived slight to Lexus that you don’t want to comprehend the point being made that it doesn’t reflect well on people that Toyota felt they had to invent a brand to sell their luxury cars because badge snobs wouldn’t have bought them otherwise.
I’m aware of the point you are going for. It’s just so astonishingly silly. OP brings us branding works shocker. Next week oxygen supports life….
Dr Jekyll said:
A few years back British Airways set up a brand called 'Go'. This wasn't because customers are snobs and wouldn't travel BA, it was actually to compete with low cost airlines. It was simply using brand identity to tell people what kind of a product it was.
That is one way to view it. Another is that BA couldn’t afford to reduce the prices on all its flights to the same level as Easyjet and the other budget airlines so it created a separate subsidiary with a different name to try to stop prices falling on its main business. Esceptico said:
Posters on PH are more interested in and more knowledgeable about cars so I wondered whether they were more savvy to brand manipulation or perhaps more invested in it.
If by your own admission Lexus vehicles are of a higher quality than Toyota's what are people being manipulated into?Are Mercedes manipulating S-Class buyers because they cost more than the A-Class but we all know they are both mercedes.
Are hotels manipulating people staying there by having seperate brands at different price points?
What about Supermarkets and their higer price point foods? It all arrives in the same truck.
If you read wikipedas blurb (summarised by me below) it does appear that the answer is a "yes"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus
Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of the Japanese automaker Toyota. ...
Created at around the same time as Japanese rivals Honda and Nissan created their Acura and Infiniti luxury divisions respectively, Lexus originated from a corporate project to develop a new premium sedan, code-named F1, which began in 1983 and culminated in the launch of the Lexus LS in 1989.[8] Subsequently, the division added sedan, coupé, convertible and SUV models. Lexus did not exist as a brand in its home market until 2005, and all vehicles marketed internationally as Lexus from 1989 to 2005 were released in Japan under the Toyota marque and an equivalent model name. In 2005, a hybrid version of the RX crossover debuted and additional hybrid models later joined the division's lineup. Lexus launched its own F marque performance division in 2007 with the debut of the IS F sport sedan, followed by the LFA supercar in 2009.
Lexus vehicles are largely produced in Japan, with manufacturing centered in the Chūbu and Kyūshū regions, and in particular at Toyota's Tahara, Aichi, Chūbu and Miyata, Fukuoka, Kyūshū plants.... Following a corporate reorganization from 2001 to 2005, Lexus began operating its own design, engineering and manufacturing centers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus
Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of the Japanese automaker Toyota. ...
Created at around the same time as Japanese rivals Honda and Nissan created their Acura and Infiniti luxury divisions respectively, Lexus originated from a corporate project to develop a new premium sedan, code-named F1, which began in 1983 and culminated in the launch of the Lexus LS in 1989.[8] Subsequently, the division added sedan, coupé, convertible and SUV models. Lexus did not exist as a brand in its home market until 2005, and all vehicles marketed internationally as Lexus from 1989 to 2005 were released in Japan under the Toyota marque and an equivalent model name. In 2005, a hybrid version of the RX crossover debuted and additional hybrid models later joined the division's lineup. Lexus launched its own F marque performance division in 2007 with the debut of the IS F sport sedan, followed by the LFA supercar in 2009.
Lexus vehicles are largely produced in Japan, with manufacturing centered in the Chūbu and Kyūshū regions, and in particular at Toyota's Tahara, Aichi, Chūbu and Miyata, Fukuoka, Kyūshū plants.... Following a corporate reorganization from 2001 to 2005, Lexus began operating its own design, engineering and manufacturing centers.
They are, but the “just” is a bit of backward way of looking at it.
My posh Prius (GS450h) has 172k miles on it, and is faultless. Previous high mileages BMW’s, Audi’s etc I have had have been much more of a pain in the arse to run as they get leggy.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I find most people who drive a Lexus don’t care it’s a Toyota, if anything it’s a plus.
My posh Prius (GS450h) has 172k miles on it, and is faultless. Previous high mileages BMW’s, Audi’s etc I have had have been much more of a pain in the arse to run as they get leggy.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I find most people who drive a Lexus don’t care it’s a Toyota, if anything it’s a plus.
348jeff said:
If you read wikipedas blurb (summarised by me below) it does appear that the answer is a "yes"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus
Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of the Japanese automaker Toyota. ...
Created at around the same time as Japanese rivals Honda and Nissan created their Acura and Infiniti luxury divisions respectively, Lexus originated from a corporate project to develop a new premium sedan, code-named F1, which began in 1983 and culminated in the launch of the Lexus LS in 1989.[8] Subsequently, the division added sedan, coupé, convertible and SUV models. Lexus did not exist as a brand in its home market until 2005, and all vehicles marketed internationally as Lexus from 1989 to 2005 were released in Japan under the Toyota marque and an equivalent model name. In 2005, a hybrid version of the RX crossover debuted and additional hybrid models later joined the division's lineup. Lexus launched its own F marque performance division in 2007 with the debut of the IS F sport sedan, followed by the LFA supercar in 2009.
Lexus vehicles are largely produced in Japan, with manufacturing centered in the Ch?bu and Ky?sh? regions, and in particular at Toyota's Tahara, Aichi, Ch?bu and Miyata, Fukuoka, Ky?sh? plants.... Following a corporate reorganization from 2001 to 2005, Lexus began operating its own design, engineering and manufacturing centers.
do you work in the news media? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus
Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of the Japanese automaker Toyota. ...
Created at around the same time as Japanese rivals Honda and Nissan created their Acura and Infiniti luxury divisions respectively, Lexus originated from a corporate project to develop a new premium sedan, code-named F1, which began in 1983 and culminated in the launch of the Lexus LS in 1989.[8] Subsequently, the division added sedan, coupé, convertible and SUV models. Lexus did not exist as a brand in its home market until 2005, and all vehicles marketed internationally as Lexus from 1989 to 2005 were released in Japan under the Toyota marque and an equivalent model name. In 2005, a hybrid version of the RX crossover debuted and additional hybrid models later joined the division's lineup. Lexus launched its own F marque performance division in 2007 with the debut of the IS F sport sedan, followed by the LFA supercar in 2009.
Lexus vehicles are largely produced in Japan, with manufacturing centered in the Ch?bu and Ky?sh? regions, and in particular at Toyota's Tahara, Aichi, Ch?bu and Miyata, Fukuoka, Ky?sh? plants.... Following a corporate reorganization from 2001 to 2005, Lexus began operating its own design, engineering and manufacturing centers.
look at your highlighted dates and then the part you failed to highlight:
"Following a corporate reorganization from 2001 to 2005, Lexus began operating its own design, engineering and manufacturing centers."
A lot of posts and a even a (landslide) poll and I’m still not sure what the Op is on about.
If the point is, if Lexus didn’t exist and Toyota were to just make luxury Toyotas and charge more for them, would they sell as sell as well as Lexus?
My guess is no they wouldn’t.
Why? Because people would think they were just tarted up Toyotas and be reluctant to pay the extra. We know that because even some posters on here still think that.
Whereas, despite shared platforms and some components, Lexus are built to higher standards.
So the way to differentiate your luxury cars from your standards is to launch a different brand with separate dealerships and marketing.
They even made what was probably the highest quality car on the road at the time, aimed firmly at Mercedes, to launch the brand and mark their intentions.
Today I don’t think Lexus buyers with more than two brain cells to rub together are shocked or put off by the knowledge that Lexus is owned by Toyota.
But initially the market needed to be strongly convinced that Lexus are not Toyotas.
If the point is, if Lexus didn’t exist and Toyota were to just make luxury Toyotas and charge more for them, would they sell as sell as well as Lexus?
My guess is no they wouldn’t.
Why? Because people would think they were just tarted up Toyotas and be reluctant to pay the extra. We know that because even some posters on here still think that.
Whereas, despite shared platforms and some components, Lexus are built to higher standards.
So the way to differentiate your luxury cars from your standards is to launch a different brand with separate dealerships and marketing.
They even made what was probably the highest quality car on the road at the time, aimed firmly at Mercedes, to launch the brand and mark their intentions.
Today I don’t think Lexus buyers with more than two brain cells to rub together are shocked or put off by the knowledge that Lexus is owned by Toyota.
But initially the market needed to be strongly convinced that Lexus are not Toyotas.
My dad had grown up driving around in boring Toyotas. For his 50th we decided we'd treat him and get him a nicer/luxurious car. From previous experience with BMW's (I still drive one myself) and knowing the maintenance etc that is required on them we ruled a 3/5 series out.
We ended up buying him a 2015 IS300H, which he's had for about 2 years now & aside from servicing, it's needed nothing. No warning lights, no limp modes etc. The thinking behind going for the Lexus is that it'd be built even better then the virtually maintenance free Toyotas he'd been driving for most of his life, and we were right.
We ended up buying him a 2015 IS300H, which he's had for about 2 years now & aside from servicing, it's needed nothing. No warning lights, no limp modes etc. The thinking behind going for the Lexus is that it'd be built even better then the virtually maintenance free Toyotas he'd been driving for most of his life, and we were right.
About the only thing i ever found boring about Toyotas is being secure in the knowledge it isn't going to break down on you, is most unlikely to ever present you with any major bills unless you neglect or abuse it, and you won't have the dubious excitment of being taken for a mug at the dealer or its workshops who think of you as nothing more than a walking wallet.
I'll take that sort of boring.
In the dim and distant past i worked on early Corollas (lift back) Camry's and Carinas as well as Datsun Bluebirds, both rwd and fwd, all these things ever needed was a general service which was simplicity itself almost a pleasure to work on, they never went wrong, compare with being on first name terms at the Ford parts desk.
I'll take that sort of boring.
In the dim and distant past i worked on early Corollas (lift back) Camry's and Carinas as well as Datsun Bluebirds, both rwd and fwd, all these things ever needed was a general service which was simplicity itself almost a pleasure to work on, they never went wrong, compare with being on first name terms at the Ford parts desk.
hyphen said:
Which beefed up passat had a 16 cylinder 8L engine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_G...
The B5.5 Passat was available with an 8 cylinder 4L engine. The Veyron engine is basically two of those on a common crank and with some turbochargers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_G...
A few people have mentioned that "Toyota's marketing must be working as people are buying in to it...yada yada".
I actually don't think this is the case. The product sells because of Lexus quality. Not marketing guff, which the "German build quality" brands have been using for the past 5 decades; something which in my opinion is now a load of baloney.
Lexus are leagues ahead of competitors in terms of reliability and build quality.
Anyhow...are they Toyota's? No. However they are built under Toyota and use some Toyota parts, which in my opinion is more reassuring than having an Audi built by VW using VW parts.
I actually don't think this is the case. The product sells because of Lexus quality. Not marketing guff, which the "German build quality" brands have been using for the past 5 decades; something which in my opinion is now a load of baloney.
Lexus are leagues ahead of competitors in terms of reliability and build quality.
Anyhow...are they Toyota's? No. However they are built under Toyota and use some Toyota parts, which in my opinion is more reassuring than having an Audi built by VW using VW parts.
As above, Lexus are next level up from Toyota and indeed from most other brands also.
When I bought my new NX I looked at the RAV4 as an option, in the end it came down to the unique modern looks of the NX against the generic boxy RAV4 along with knowing how far ahead the level of service from Lexus dealers is.Nothing to do with having anything against Toyota as a brand.
Lexus know their market extremely well as their customers are mostly solvent,successful individuals who will buy the car outright as they have the disposable income to do so.To put it another way if I see someone driving a 2/3 year Lexus they probably own it and are a successful individual,however if I see someone driving a 2/3 year old Audi/BMW/Merc I make the probably correct assumption that they are paying a monthly lease on it while living with their parents and eating out of their mothers fridge.
When I bought my new NX I looked at the RAV4 as an option, in the end it came down to the unique modern looks of the NX against the generic boxy RAV4 along with knowing how far ahead the level of service from Lexus dealers is.Nothing to do with having anything against Toyota as a brand.
Lexus know their market extremely well as their customers are mostly solvent,successful individuals who will buy the car outright as they have the disposable income to do so.To put it another way if I see someone driving a 2/3 year Lexus they probably own it and are a successful individual,however if I see someone driving a 2/3 year old Audi/BMW/Merc I make the probably correct assumption that they are paying a monthly lease on it while living with their parents and eating out of their mothers fridge.
Esceptico said:
I would put MINI in the same category. They are just BMWs. If you have driven a new Mini you have a BMW. Designed, developed, planned and signed off by BMW. But with a clever marketing plan to play on people’s memory of the original Mini.
and...Esceptico said:
Lamborghini has been part of the VW group for some time and there is sharing of parts and overall management from VW. Yet they did exist separately before the takeover. They possibly fall between the two stools, not being a full manufacturer yet more than just a brand.
I think you're a little confused. You're saying a Mini is a BMW but a Lamborghini isn't a VW even though both brands were very much seperate companies before being boought out?Superflow said:
As above, Lexus are next level up from Toyota and indeed from most other brands also.
When I bought my new NX I looked at the RAV4 as an option, in the end it came down to the unique modern looks of the NX against the generic boxy RAV4 along with knowing how far ahead the level of service from Lexus dealers is.Nothing to do with having anything against Toyota as a brand.
Lexus know their market extremely well as their customers are mostly solvent,successful individuals who will buy the car outright as they have the disposable income to do so.To put it another way if I see someone driving a 2/3 year Lexus they probably own it and are a successful individual,however if I see someone driving a 2/3 year old Audi/BMW/Merc I make the probably correct assumption that they are paying a monthly lease on it while living with their parents and eating out of their mothers fridge.
"Lexus know their market extremely well as their customers are mostly solvent,successful individuals who will buy the car outright as they have the disposable income to do so.To put it another way if I see someone driving a 2/3 year Lexus they probably own it and are a successful individual..."When I bought my new NX I looked at the RAV4 as an option, in the end it came down to the unique modern looks of the NX against the generic boxy RAV4 along with knowing how far ahead the level of service from Lexus dealers is.Nothing to do with having anything against Toyota as a brand.
Lexus know their market extremely well as their customers are mostly solvent,successful individuals who will buy the car outright as they have the disposable income to do so.To put it another way if I see someone driving a 2/3 year Lexus they probably own it and are a successful individual,however if I see someone driving a 2/3 year old Audi/BMW/Merc I make the probably correct assumption that they are paying a monthly lease on it while living with their parents and eating out of their mothers fridge.
Although I had to fight myself to not burst out laughing at that, I must say that what you've written there is probably one of the most prejudgemental and, with respect, blinkered things I've ever come across anywhere by anyone. Your yardstick for success is a Lexus and your yardstick for failure is a Mercedes. Great logic there. A tad insecure, mind, and not all leases are 2 or 3 years, you know. Not everyone who drives a Lexus owns one either. Unless you've got market research to demonstrate otherwise.
I had a guy come over to my house regarding insulation last year to see what he could do by obviously rinsing the Green Homes Grant. He rocked up in a brand spanking new Lexus. Successful and a grafter? Owning the car outright and not leasing it? Please. We all know what many of these companies and the people running them are all about and what their backgrounds are.
You'd better come up with a way to salvage your howler of a comment.
348jeff said:
If you read wikipedas blurb (summarised by me below) it does appear that the answer is a "yes"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus
Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of the Japanese automaker Toyota. ...
If you read wikipedia's entry on "Rebadging", it appears that the answer is a "no".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus
Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of the Japanese automaker Toyota. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebadging
Rebadging in the automotive industry is a form of market segmentation used by automobile manufacturers around the world. To allow for product differentiation without designing or engineering a new model or brand (at high cost or risk), a manufacturer creates a distinct automobile by applying a new badge or trademark (brand, logo, or manufacturer's name/make/marque) to an existing product line.
Rebadging is also known as rebranding and badge engineering; the latter is an intentionally ironic misnomer, in that little or no actual engineering takes place The term originated with the practice of replacing an automobile's emblems to create an ostensibly new model sold by a different maker.
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