Are Lexus just rebadged Toyotas?
Poll: Are Lexus just rebadged Toyotas?
Total Members Polled: 253
Discussion
I think the problem is with the word “just”, as from what’s been written in the thread they aren’t taking a Toyota, changing the badge, and sending it out.
Are Acuras just rebadged Hondas? Yes.
Are Lexuses just rebadged Toyotas? No.
If it’s a different car, it’s clearly more than “just” a marketing exercise.
Are Acuras just rebadged Hondas? Yes.
Are Lexuses just rebadged Toyotas? No.
If it’s a different car, it’s clearly more than “just” a marketing exercise.
DanL said:
I think the problem is with the word “just”, as from what’s been written in the thread they aren’t taking a Toyota, changing the badge, and sending it out.
Are Acuras just rebadged Hondas? Yes.
Are Lexuses just rebadged Toyotas? No.
If it’s a different car, it’s clearly more than “just” a marketing exercise.
I think my use of the word “just” in the title of the thread has put all the Lexus owners on here on the defensive. In retrospect a poor choice of word on my part as no slight to Lexus cars was intended. Are Acuras just rebadged Hondas? Yes.
Are Lexuses just rebadged Toyotas? No.
If it’s a different car, it’s clearly more than “just” a marketing exercise.
Clearly Toyota don’t make two identical cars any more and put a Toyota badge on one and a Lexus badge on the other. That would be stupid because the whole point of Lexus is to put a distance between ordinary Toyotas and luxury Toyotas ie Lexus (plural of Lexus = Lexi?)
Some people pointing out that Lexus are different from Toyotas is missing the point. Of course they are different. They are the luxury cars made by Toyota. Buyers spending £100k have completely different expectations than someone spending £20k. If I buy a base 1 series I don’t expect the same quality than if I were buying the top 7 series.
I’m sure it is a follow on from world war 2 when Americans stopped buying anything Japanese. Lexus sounds less Japanese as does ‘Acura’ which is US market name for Honda.
I think Lexus actually comes from a shortened version of ‘Luxury Export US ‘ that is what Japanese people told me when I lived there anyway.
I remember seeing a documentary in the 1980s where they showed Japanese engineers working on the Lexus engineering doors that had to sound like the top of the range Mercedes when they were shut
I think Lexus actually comes from a shortened version of ‘Luxury Export US ‘ that is what Japanese people told me when I lived there anyway.
I remember seeing a documentary in the 1980s where they showed Japanese engineers working on the Lexus engineering doors that had to sound like the top of the range Mercedes when they were shut
I'm sure Merc et al stripped an LS400 to find out how Lexus could sell it at the price when it was clearly built and engineered to such high standards. The answer was they couldn't. Certainly on the early models, the LS was a loss leader and an extravagant one at that. The company's clichéd slogan, the relentless pursuit of perfection is kinda illustrated by this short story, worth a read...
https://medium.com/swlh/how-lexus-turned-its-first...
https://medium.com/swlh/how-lexus-turned-its-first...
Lexus may well be "rebadged Toyotas" in the OP's mind, but that is not true.
"Relative to Toyota models, Lexus vehicles are built according to different quality control standards, including more stringent body panel fit tolerances and paint quality requirements.
Their manufacture involves different assembly lines, molds, welding processes, and manufacturing equipment. Lexus plant workers also undergo a more selective screening process.
Production vehicles are given visual inspections for flaws, individually test-driven at high speeds, and subjected to vibration tests."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus#CITEREFDawson2...
From a Lexus employee,
"Let's take the sheet metal used for the bodywork, for example:
-The quality of the sheet metal has much higher overall quality and is held to much higher standards
-No recycled parts are used
-It's Zinc coated to help the paint stick better
-There are MANY more steps to the stamping and rolling process
-There is no crimping used
-ALL welds are done with Laser weld that produce MUCH stronger welds that aren't brittle like regular welds which actually result in a safer vehicle
-Overall the sheet metal process costs TWICE as much as the Toyota process"
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Lexus/comments/9qqcqn/is_...
"Relative to Toyota models, Lexus vehicles are built according to different quality control standards, including more stringent body panel fit tolerances and paint quality requirements.
Their manufacture involves different assembly lines, molds, welding processes, and manufacturing equipment. Lexus plant workers also undergo a more selective screening process.
Production vehicles are given visual inspections for flaws, individually test-driven at high speeds, and subjected to vibration tests."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus#CITEREFDawson2...
From a Lexus employee,
"Let's take the sheet metal used for the bodywork, for example:
-The quality of the sheet metal has much higher overall quality and is held to much higher standards
-No recycled parts are used
-It's Zinc coated to help the paint stick better
-There are MANY more steps to the stamping and rolling process
-There is no crimping used
-ALL welds are done with Laser weld that produce MUCH stronger welds that aren't brittle like regular welds which actually result in a safer vehicle
-Overall the sheet metal process costs TWICE as much as the Toyota process"
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Lexus/comments/9qqcqn/is_...
belleair302 said:
The Lexus brand is so superior to that of Toyota that the link is tenuous these days and in the USA and UK you will NOT see a Toyota Dealer near a Lexus Dealer.
That's not correct.I know that in Leeds at least the Lexus and Toyota main dealers are side by side. And a stone's throw away, Mercedes and Smart are under the same roof.
Esceptico said:
This came up on another thread.
Back in the late eighties Toyota decided to create a luxury brand because, particularly outside Japan, they presumably correctly perceived that some people are snobs and are less prepared to buy a luxury car from a manufacturer that also makes small runarounds. Other Japanese manufacturers did the same.
In Japan their luxury cars continued to be badged as Toyotas until 2005 so presumably one of the most famous Lexus and one that established the brand outside Japan - the LS400 - was badged a Toyota.
In my mind Lexus are just rebadged Toyotas and it is pure marketing puff. They are made by Toyota, the CEO is the same and they don’t have a prior existence or history. That they are sold by separate dealers is just part of their marketing plan.
I would put MINI in the same category. They are just BMWs. If you have driven a new Mini you have a BMW. Designed, developed, planned and signed off by BMW. But with a clever marketing plan to play on people’s memory of the original Mini.
I think other cases are more difficult. Lamborghini has been part of the VW group for some time and there is sharing of parts and overall management from VW. Yet they did exist separately before the takeover. They possibly fall between the two stools, not being a full manufacturer yet more than just a brand.
Do you think a Rolls Royce is just a BMW?Back in the late eighties Toyota decided to create a luxury brand because, particularly outside Japan, they presumably correctly perceived that some people are snobs and are less prepared to buy a luxury car from a manufacturer that also makes small runarounds. Other Japanese manufacturers did the same.
In Japan their luxury cars continued to be badged as Toyotas until 2005 so presumably one of the most famous Lexus and one that established the brand outside Japan - the LS400 - was badged a Toyota.
In my mind Lexus are just rebadged Toyotas and it is pure marketing puff. They are made by Toyota, the CEO is the same and they don’t have a prior existence or history. That they are sold by separate dealers is just part of their marketing plan.
I would put MINI in the same category. They are just BMWs. If you have driven a new Mini you have a BMW. Designed, developed, planned and signed off by BMW. But with a clever marketing plan to play on people’s memory of the original Mini.
I think other cases are more difficult. Lamborghini has been part of the VW group for some time and there is sharing of parts and overall management from VW. Yet they did exist separately before the takeover. They possibly fall between the two stools, not being a full manufacturer yet more than just a brand.
The only car I have seen that is a Toyota and a Lexus is the GS300 and Aristo. The Aristo was JDM only and was based on the first and second generation GS300s.
The RoW got the Lexus, Japan got the Aristo. The Aristo had the 2jz engine in both n/a and turbo, while the GS300 only received the n/a 2jz.
The RoW got the Lexus, Japan got the Aristo. The Aristo had the 2jz engine in both n/a and turbo, while the GS300 only received the n/a 2jz.
Toyota make everything from tiny basic city cars through world leading 4x4's right up to massive trucks under the Hino badge, plus all sorts of industrial equipment.
You wouldn't expect an Aygo or Kei car to be built like a Hino 700, so why expect a Toyota Corolla to be as heavy powerful comfortable and well equipped as a top range Lexus 600h.
Camry from the 90's and before was a superb and highly respected car by those who drove and owned them, still is though for years we couldn;t buy one here, but despite how good it was and is it just didn't sell in great numbers here, my own opinion it should have had a decent automatic Diesel and estate car options which would have made all the difference, wanter under the bridge.
Much of the problem with the UK and many other markets is pure badge snobbery, something alive and well in everything from cars to jcareers to phones to watches to clothes labels and postcodes, when Toyota built the superb original LS400 they knew it wouldn't be accepted on the same l;evel no matter how good it was by Merc or BMW buyers/reviewers (or rather the right image of what to be seen in) as a top level vehicle with that Toyota badge despite being a better built and far more durable car than equivalents from those makers, hence Toyota sensibly created Lexus and set up separate dealerships with class leading customer service.
In Japan the best Car Toyota make, Century, arguably one of if not the best built car in the world, still has the Toyota badge, i'm glad Toyota kept it like that is that a bit of anti snobbery by Toyota or them stubbornly saying here it is if you don't like it go elsewhere, or sticking to tradition and nothing wrong with that.
This badge snobbery thing has seen Hyundai go the same way with Genesis, no one bought the Hyundai Grandeur but stick a Genesis badge on its replacement and all of sudden its chic, Citroen gone the same way with DS.
Funny when you think about it, Toyota, a company famous for not fixing what isn't broke, something owners are glad of, were the first to implement this high image branding including exclusive dealerships for their luxury range.
Turning the argument on its head, are Mercedes and BMW now devalued in kudos or cheapened as a brand since they started to compete in the shopping trolley market, should Merc have put the A class under the Smart label where instead of selling cheap not so good Mercs they could have been just larger Smart cars with modern more fun designs like the first Smarts and kept Mercs reassuringly expensive RWDs?
You wouldn't expect an Aygo or Kei car to be built like a Hino 700, so why expect a Toyota Corolla to be as heavy powerful comfortable and well equipped as a top range Lexus 600h.
Camry from the 90's and before was a superb and highly respected car by those who drove and owned them, still is though for years we couldn;t buy one here, but despite how good it was and is it just didn't sell in great numbers here, my own opinion it should have had a decent automatic Diesel and estate car options which would have made all the difference, wanter under the bridge.
Much of the problem with the UK and many other markets is pure badge snobbery, something alive and well in everything from cars to jcareers to phones to watches to clothes labels and postcodes, when Toyota built the superb original LS400 they knew it wouldn't be accepted on the same l;evel no matter how good it was by Merc or BMW buyers/reviewers (or rather the right image of what to be seen in) as a top level vehicle with that Toyota badge despite being a better built and far more durable car than equivalents from those makers, hence Toyota sensibly created Lexus and set up separate dealerships with class leading customer service.
In Japan the best Car Toyota make, Century, arguably one of if not the best built car in the world, still has the Toyota badge, i'm glad Toyota kept it like that is that a bit of anti snobbery by Toyota or them stubbornly saying here it is if you don't like it go elsewhere, or sticking to tradition and nothing wrong with that.
This badge snobbery thing has seen Hyundai go the same way with Genesis, no one bought the Hyundai Grandeur but stick a Genesis badge on its replacement and all of sudden its chic, Citroen gone the same way with DS.
Funny when you think about it, Toyota, a company famous for not fixing what isn't broke, something owners are glad of, were the first to implement this high image branding including exclusive dealerships for their luxury range.
Turning the argument on its head, are Mercedes and BMW now devalued in kudos or cheapened as a brand since they started to compete in the shopping trolley market, should Merc have put the A class under the Smart label where instead of selling cheap not so good Mercs they could have been just larger Smart cars with modern more fun designs like the first Smarts and kept Mercs reassuringly expensive RWDs?
Esceptico said:
I would put MINI in the same category. They are just BMWs. If you have driven a new Mini you have a BMW. Designed, developed, planned and signed off by BMW. But with a clever marketing plan to play on people’s memory of the original Mini.
Not quite. The original R50 MINI was very much a Rover Group project - almost completely engineered in Gaydon (by the same people who also worked on the Rover 75 and L322 Range Rover). The assembly line was also built at Longbridge, and hurriedly swapped with the Rover 75 line at Cowley post-offloading of Rover/Land Rover. The R56 onwards though - yes, it's basically a BMW product.
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