Are Lexus just rebadged Toyotas?

[Esceptico]

hyphen said:

Esceptico said:

VW correctly surmised that however impressive the Veyron was, far fewer people would have bought it had they stuck a VW badge on the back. So they resurrected the Bugatti name. The fact that you don’t seem to think it is a VW shows the power of brands and marketing.

It's not a VW. It's a standalone brand within the VAG group.

The VAG group - or more fully - the Volkswagen Group. Hence it is a Volkswagen because it was made by the Volkswagen group. From memory it only came about because of the head of the Volkswagen group wanted to do it. It was funded by Volkswagen no doubt using Volkswagen engineers (or new people recruited by Volkswagen).

A brand is just a name. Used for marketing. They could have called it a Skoda, or an Audi or they could have invented a new name. They used Bugatti because they owned the name and the original Bugatti did make race cars so is evocative.

[Cyder]

It’s all semantics being argued over I think.

I’ve worked for an OEM with a luxury brand and mainstream brand and developed vehicles for both.
The design standards were identical but for the luxury vehicle the budget and targets (NVH particularly) were higher.

The tier 1 suppliers are all the same, the platform is whatever fits the segment of car being developed and is mostly irrelevant to the average punter.

I have no reason to think Toyota don’t do the same thing.

[Dingu]

Esceptico said:

The VAG group - or more fully - the Volkswagen Group. Hence it is a Volkswagen because it was made by the Volkswagen group. From memory it only came about because of the head of the Volkswagen group wanted to do it. It was funded by Volkswagen no doubt using Volkswagen engineers (or new people recruited by Volkswagen).

A brand is just a name. Used for marketing. They could have called it a Skoda, or an Audi or they could have invented a new name. They used Bugatti because they owned the name and the original Bugatti did make race cars so is evocative.

Is there an actual point to this thread aside from debating what constitutes a brand?

Surely due to the fact that Lexus have models which Toyota do not they are not just a rebadged Toyota as there is, as you have admitted, more to a brand than just the group of people involved in creating a product. It can be to evoke a feeling or to differentiate products.
The fact that the same company essentially make both is largely irrelevant. They are to different specifications and as such are different.

We could take your argument to the extreme and say that as humans make all cars from elements mined from the same planet they are all just rebadged versions of car….

[Esceptico]

Dingu said:

I know it’s built by Volkswagen but it is about a similar to your Golf as a Learjet is.

Do you think Skoda, Seat, Audi, Lamborghini etc should all be done away with then? It’s all VW and pointless. Ditto the Stellanis group. We just can have less choice because branding is pointless?

That’s not the power of brands. The own brand cereal varieties are typically, though not always, lower quality.

Do you think that brands are beneficial to customers? If you look at VAG their cars are becoming more and more similar underneath with contrived differences to try to keep the brands separate so that they can charge more for those brands perceived as better, which is why the Huracan is more expensive than the R10 even if they share quite a lot underneath. Same with Porsche and Audi nowadays.

I’m not sure the word “quality” is applicable to highly processed junk food, whether it is branded Heinz or Sainsbury’s. But as proved by your post the known brands are perceived to be better quality, which is why they are more expensive.

[Dingu]

Esceptico said:

Do you think that brands are beneficial to customers? If you look at VAG their cars are becoming more and more similar underneath with contrived differences to try to keep the brands separate so that they can charge more for those brands perceived as better, which is why the Huracan is more expensive than the R10 even if they share quite a lot underneath. Same with Porsche and Audi nowadays.

I’m not sure the word “quality” is applicable to highly processed junk food, whether it is branded Heinz or Sainsbury’s. But as proved by your post the known brands are perceived to be better quality, which is why they are more expensive.

Why did you buy a Golf then?

[Dingu]

Esceptico said:

Do you think that brands are beneficial to customers? If you look at VAG their cars are becoming more and more similar underneath with contrived differences to try to keep the brands separate so that they can charge more for those brands perceived as better, which is why the Huracan is more expensive than the R10 even if they share quite a lot underneath. Same with Porsche and Audi nowadays.

I’m not sure the word “quality” is applicable to highly processed junk food, whether it is branded Heinz or Sainsbury’s. But as proved by your post the known brands are perceived to be better quality, which is why they are more expensive.

And obviously yes they are. Do a poll on who would buy a Peugeot vs a Vauxhall and on here it’s likely to be pretty one sided. But they are the same car. So those people are unlikely to be happy about Peugeot being got rid of because Esceptico has a bee in his bonnet over literally nothing.

[Super Sonic]

kurokawa said:

also
Toyota Alphard <=> Lexus LM
Toyota Auris/Corolla/Pruis(3rd Gen)/RAV4(4th Gen) <=> Lexus CT/NX(First Gen)
Toyota Carmy <=> Lexus ES
Toyota C-HR <=> Lexus UX
Toyota Crown <=> Lexus LS

Toyota Harrier - Lexus RX
Toyota Land cruiser - Lexus VX

[hyphen]

Esceptico said:

hyphen said:

Esceptico said:

VW correctly surmised that however impressive the Veyron was, far fewer people would have bought it had they stuck a VW badge on the back. So they resurrected the Bugatti name. The fact that you don’t seem to think it is a VW shows the power of brands and marketing.

It's not a VW. It's a standalone brand within the VAG group.

The VAG group - or more fully - the Volkswagen Group. Hence it is a Volkswagen because it was made by the Volkswagen group. From memory it only came about because of the head of the Volkswagen group wanted to do it. It was funded by Volkswagen no doubt using Volkswagen engineers (or new people recruited by Volkswagen).

A brand is just a name. Used for marketing. They could have called it a Skoda, or an Audi or they could have invented a new name. They used Bugatti because they owned the name and the original Bugatti did make race cars so is evocative.

They could have stuck a Lambo or a Bentley badge on if they had wanted to. Or built it at an existing spare plant. But instead they actually revived Bugatti.

The 'brand is just a name' built a new factory in France where the brand is from. And not in Germany or anywhere else.

[ATG]

hyphen said:

They could have stuck a Lambo or a Bentley badge on if they had wanted to. Or built it at an existing spare plant. But instead they actually revived Bugatti.

The 'brand is just a name' built a new factory in France where the brand is from. And not in Germany or anywhere else.

And stuck an engine in it out of a beefed up Passat.

[hyphen]

ATG said:

And stuck an engine in it out of a beefed up Passat.

Which beefed up passat had a 16 cylinder 8L engine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_G...

[Cold]

hyphen said:

They could have stuck a Lambo or a Bentley badge on if they had wanted to. Or built it at an existing spare plant. But instead they actually revived Bugatti.

The 'brand is just a name' built a new factory in France where the brand is from. And not in Germany or anywhere else.

That's pretty much what happened at the beginning.

[Esceptico]

Dingu said:

Esceptico said:

The VAG group - or more fully - the Volkswagen Group. Hence it is a Volkswagen because it was made by the Volkswagen group. From memory it only came about because of the head of the Volkswagen group wanted to do it. It was funded by Volkswagen no doubt using Volkswagen engineers (or new people recruited by Volkswagen).

A brand is just a name. Used for marketing. They could have called it a Skoda, or an Audi or they could have invented a new name. They used Bugatti because they owned the name and the original Bugatti did make race cars so is evocative.

Is there an actual point to this thread aside from debating what constitutes a brand?
.

Back in the late 80s Toyota decided that if they wanted to sell luxury Toyotas overseas then it would be better to create a new brand because some people would then believe that when they bought their Toyota it wouldn’t be a Toyota but new brand X (now known as Lexus).

I was wondering how many people had bought into that marketing approach. It seems from the poll result, quite a lot have.

[Dingu]

Esceptico said:

Back in the late 80s Toyota decided that if they wanted to sell luxury Toyotas overseas then it would be better to create a new brand because some people would then believe that when they bought their Toyota it wouldn’t be a Toyota but new brand X (now known as Lexus).

I was wondering how many people had bought into that marketing approach. It seems from the poll result, quite a lot have.

You are completely arbitrary about what you consider a legitimate brand though so it’s all pointless.

And the idea of different branding for different aims is pretty basic business wise. It doesn’t mean a Lexus isn’t a product produced to higher quality which is what you seem to have been angling at.

Edited by Dingu on Saturday 5th February 23:58

[Snow and Rocks]

Esceptico said:

Back in the late 80s Toyota decided that if they wanted to sell luxury Toyotas overseas then it would be better to create a new brand because some people would then believe that when they bought their Toyota it wouldn’t be a Toyota but new brand X (now known as Lexus).

I was wondering how many people had bought into that marketing approach. It seems from the poll result, quite a lot have.

Do you want some salt for that chip on your shoulder?! What a bizarre thread.

I own a Toyota, a basic farmer spec Hilux - well built and completely reliable but very basic with almost no frills to speak of.

I am considering a Lexus GS for my gf - also hopefully well built and completely reliable but with a lovely interior and fully loaded with luxury equipment.

They're completely different cars aimed and thus marketed at different people. It's not some elaborate con!

[Desiderata]

Nothing new.
It has been going on for years.

[ATG]

hyphen said:

ATG said:

And stuck an engine in it out of a beefed up Passat.

Which beefed up passat had a 16 cylinder 8L engine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_G...

The Phaeton (beefed up Passat) had a W12, which is effectively two 15 degree VR6s driving a single crank. The W16 is effectively the same thing except with two 15 degree VR8s. The VR design and the equally ingenious W designs are core VW group IP used across many models and brands.

[saaby93]

Surely the main difference between Lexus and Toyota is the figure at the end of the service bill.

[Esceptico]

Dingu said:

Esceptico said:

Back in the late 80s Toyota decided that if they wanted to sell luxury Toyotas overseas then it would be better to create a new brand because some people would then believe that when they bought their Toyota it wouldn’t be a Toyota but new brand X (now known as Lexus).

I was wondering how many people had bought into that marketing approach. It seems from the poll result, quite a lot have.

You are completely arbitrary about what you consider a legitimate brand though so it’s all pointless.

And the idea of different branding for different aims is pretty basic business wise. It doesn’t mean a Lexus isn’t a product produced to higher quality which is what you seem to have been angling at.

Edited by Dingu on Saturday 5th February 23:58

I never said the Toyotas branded as Lexus were not a higher quality than basic Toyotas. In fact I said the exact opposite so why are you accusing me of saying so? It is pretty bloody obvious that Toyota wouldn’t be able to compete against the Germans if they tried selling luxury cars with the same quality as an Aygo.

I never said that cars branded as Lexus were inferior to the competition. As someone a bit obsessed with Japan (to the extent of having taught myself the language) I’m probably overly positive towards Japanese manufacturers so certainly not dissing Toyota.

You seem so fixated on the perceived slight to Lexus that you don’t want to comprehend the point being made that it doesn’t reflect well on people that Toyota felt they had to invent a brand to sell their luxury cars because badge snobs wouldn’t have bought them otherwise.

[ATG]

Snow and Rocks said:

Esceptico said:

Back in the late 80s Toyota decided that if they wanted to sell luxury Toyotas overseas then it would be better to create a new brand because some people would then believe that when they bought their Toyota it wouldn’t be a Toyota but new brand X (now known as Lexus).

I was wondering how many people had bought into that marketing approach. It seems from the poll result, quite a lot have.

Do you want some salt for that chip on your shoulder?! What a bizarre thread.

I own a Toyota, a basic farmer spec Hilux - well built and completely reliable but very basic with almost no frills to speak of.

I am considering a Lexus GS for my gf - also hopefully well built and completely reliable but with a lovely interior and fully loaded with luxury equipment.

They're completely different cars aimed and thus marketed at different people. It's not some elaborate con!

It's not a con, it's just two brands used by the same manufacturer, sometimes for the same product. See Supra, Soarer and Lexus SC as an example.

[Dingu]

Esceptico said:

You seem so fixated on the perceived slight to Lexus that you don’t want to comprehend the point being made that it doesn’t reflect well on people that Toyota felt they had to invent a brand to sell their luxury cars because badge snobs wouldn’t have bought them otherwise.

I’m aware of the point you are going for. It’s just so astonishingly silly.
OP brings us branding works shocker. Next week oxygen supports life….