Alpine A110 to be axed?
Discussion
Lexington59 said:
He makes a good point, trying to sell an unknown brand to a brand obsessed market for a price higher than the main competition, (and with a perceived inferior “Clio sourced” interior), is unlikely to be a big seller. This is really where they shot themselves in the foot, the outcome here is really not a huge surprise.
The fact they got it so wrong (in terms of the marketing, not the car, styling aside) to me is the greatest tragedy, since just getting the price point right (pitched just slightly below a base Porsche, with a similar options ‘menu’), with perhaps a tad more spent on marketing to improve brand awareness and they would have sold considerably more.
Why do you keep on trotting out this misinformation which has repeatedly been shown to be bunkum?The fact they got it so wrong (in terms of the marketing, not the car, styling aside) to me is the greatest tragedy, since just getting the price point right (pitched just slightly below a base Porsche, with a similar options ‘menu’), with perhaps a tad more spent on marketing to improve brand awareness and they would have sold considerably more.
1) Spec for spec, option for option the A110 is cheaper than a Porsche 718 - they have done EXACTLY what you said they should do.
2) They have never needed to discount the price despite having produced at around twice the rate they originally planned (well over 8000 to date) so the price was fine.
3) It's comfortably outsold it's main rival in the market they co exist (Europe)
While I might agree that the marketing in the UK was very low key - but given that, until this year, they were struggling to meet overall demand, it wouldn't have made much sense to fire up even more demand.
bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
He makes a good point, trying to sell an unknown brand to a brand obsessed market for a price higher than the main competition, (and with a perceived inferior “Clio sourced” interior), is unlikely to be a big seller. This is really where they shot themselves in the foot, the outcome here is really not a huge surprise.
The fact they got it so wrong (in terms of the marketing, not the car, styling aside) to me is the greatest tragedy, since just getting the price point right (pitched just slightly below a base Porsche, with a similar options ‘menu’), with perhaps a tad more spent on marketing to improve brand awareness and they would have sold considerably more.
Why do you keep on trotting out this misinformation which has repeatedly been shown to be bunkum?The fact they got it so wrong (in terms of the marketing, not the car, styling aside) to me is the greatest tragedy, since just getting the price point right (pitched just slightly below a base Porsche, with a similar options ‘menu’), with perhaps a tad more spent on marketing to improve brand awareness and they would have sold considerably more.
1) Spec for spec, option for option the A110 is cheaper than a Porsche 718 - they have done EXACTLY what you said they should do.
2) They have never needed to discount the price despite having produced at around twice the rate they originally planned (well over 8000 to date) so the price was fine.
3) It's comfortably outsold it's main rival in the market they co exist (Europe)
While I might agree that the marketing in the UK was very low key - but given that, until this year, they were struggling to meet overall demand, it wouldn't have made much sense to fire up even more demand.
Price: fact is I can go online today and order a brand new 718 (although it is probably not going to be delivered for some time...) which is actually fairly well equipped with no options for less than an A110. At the time of the launch I could order a 718 for less than 40k. The launch spec A110 was £52k. Pure is 47 vs 44 for the base Cayman, the main established player in the sector. Spec for spec is almost irrelevant, and particularly for the marketing where headline price is all that matters.
Sales: 2018 sales were poor. UK sales, as the 2nd biggest market in Europe were absolutely terrible, the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
As for outselling anything, the 718 comfortable outsold the Alpine in any market you wish to look at, you can manipulate figures any which way you like if it makes you feel better, however this is simply the 'misinformation' accusation you level at me... Pot kettle...
Edited by Lexington59 on Saturday 23 May 11:46
Lexington59 said:
BCR, your views are so entrenched you are blind to the reality here.
Price: fact is I can go online today and order a brand new 718 (although it is probably not going to be delivered for some time...) which is actually fairly well equipped with no options for less than an A110. At the time of the launch I could order a 718 for less than 40k. The launch spec A110 was £52k. Pure is 47 vs 44 for the base Cayman, the main established player in the sector. Spec for spec is almost irrelevant, and particularly for the marketing where headline price is all that matters.
Sales: 2018 sales were poor. UK sales, as the 2nd biggest market in Europe were absolutely terrible, the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
As for outselling anything, the 718 comfortable outsold the Alpine in any market you wish to look at, you can manipulate figures any which way you like if it makes you feel better, however this is simply the 'misinformation' accusation you level at me... Pot kettle...
Fact: a base cayman 718 at 46k is significantly slower accelerating than an A110. Price: fact is I can go online today and order a brand new 718 (although it is probably not going to be delivered for some time...) which is actually fairly well equipped with no options for less than an A110. At the time of the launch I could order a 718 for less than 40k. The launch spec A110 was £52k. Pure is 47 vs 44 for the base Cayman, the main established player in the sector. Spec for spec is almost irrelevant, and particularly for the marketing where headline price is all that matters.
Sales: 2018 sales were poor. UK sales, as the 2nd biggest market in Europe were absolutely terrible, the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
As for outselling anything, the 718 comfortable outsold the Alpine in any market you wish to look at, you can manipulate figures any which way you like if it makes you feel better, however this is simply the 'misinformation' accusation you level at me... Pot kettle...
Edited by Lexington59 on Saturday 23 May 11:46
Fact: A110 outsold 718 Cayman in mainland Europe. Boxster figures aren’t included as it’s not a Cayman. If you want to fudge figures you might as well take into account global sales of all Porsche products and, yes, they win by a landslide.
I’m not that bothered about interior gizmos but even the base-spec A110 has everything that is required - the basic seats are superb and look good. No need to worry about contrasting trim choices/ monogrammed headrests.
The A110 was meant to be launched in the U.K. in March 2018 but production issues (probably the prototype fire on top gear) delayed the launch until much later in the year- I know, I know they should have just launched dodgy cars the way Porsche have done in the past. The launch number had been limited to 1955 cars.
Hence sales were low in 2018 as there was no stock around for demonstrations etc.
You’ve really got a bee in your bonnet about the A110 - did one overtake you?
DonkeyApple said:
cerb4.5lee said:
One of my old bosses had an Alpine A610 and I thought that it was seriously cool(I've always been into cars and I loved it when it came out and still do, so I knew what it was), but the rest of my colleagues didn't know what it was or had ever heard of it. I do also appreciate rare cars as well, so I really like the A110 for that too.
I nearly bought one of those. Two things put me off in the end. The first was that it appeared on a TV show in the hands of a tarmac drive specialist and the second was that when I sat in one at the showroom it was like being in front of the s
ttest, generic discount 80s stereo unit in Dixons. It was made of the hideous plastic that was in my mother’s R5 GTS. That was no problem in an over engined, cheap French hatchback but the Alpine was not cheap French hatchback prices. You were being asked to pay big money for something with the interior of a poundshop, the engine out of an executive minicab and an image associated with a greased up tarmac vendor. The 718 is one model, I'm not sure Porsche even track the splits, but just like the 911 you can order whichever flavour you want, unlike the Alpine. I'm sure BCR would like the manual Porsche sales removed as well to help his argument 
CMoose also addressed the 718 sales earlier in the thread, something like 8k vs 2k Alpines for 2018 and slightly less for 2019 but still comfortably far more than the Alpine.
Look at individual markets like the UK and the numbers are simply awful 171 for 2019 and 142 the year before.
CMoose also addressed the 718 sales earlier in the thread, something like 8k vs 2k Alpines for 2018 and slightly less for 2019 but still comfortably far more than the Alpine.
Look at individual markets like the UK and the numbers are simply awful 171 for 2019 and 142 the year before.
Miserablegit said:
Lexington59 said:
BCR, your views are so entrenched you are blind to the reality here.
Price: fact is I can go online today and order a brand new 718 (although it is probably not going to be delivered for some time...) which is actually fairly well equipped with no options for less than an A110. At the time of the launch I could order a 718 for less than 40k. The launch spec A110 was £52k. Pure is 47 vs 44 for the base Cayman, the main established player in the sector. Spec for spec is almost irrelevant, and particularly for the marketing where headline price is all that matters.
Sales: 2018 sales were poor. UK sales, as the 2nd biggest market in Europe were absolutely terrible, the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
As for outselling anything, the 718 comfortable outsold the Alpine in any market you wish to look at, you can manipulate figures any which way you like if it makes you feel better, however this is simply the 'misinformation' accusation you level at me... Pot kettle...
Fact: a base cayman 718 at 46k is significantly slower accelerating than an A110. Price: fact is I can go online today and order a brand new 718 (although it is probably not going to be delivered for some time...) which is actually fairly well equipped with no options for less than an A110. At the time of the launch I could order a 718 for less than 40k. The launch spec A110 was £52k. Pure is 47 vs 44 for the base Cayman, the main established player in the sector. Spec for spec is almost irrelevant, and particularly for the marketing where headline price is all that matters.
Sales: 2018 sales were poor. UK sales, as the 2nd biggest market in Europe were absolutely terrible, the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
As for outselling anything, the 718 comfortable outsold the Alpine in any market you wish to look at, you can manipulate figures any which way you like if it makes you feel better, however this is simply the 'misinformation' accusation you level at me... Pot kettle...
Edited by Lexington59 on Saturday 23 May 11:46
Fact: A110 outsold 718 Cayman in mainland Europe. Boxster figures aren’t included as it’s not a Cayman. If you want to fudge figures you might as well take into account global sales of all Porsche products and, yes, they win by a landslide.
I’m not that bothered about interior gizmos but even the base-spec A110 has everything that is required - the basic seats are superb and look good. No need to worry about contrasting trim choices/ monogrammed headrests.
The A110 was meant to be launched in the U.K. in March 2018 but production issues (probably the prototype fire on top gear) delayed the launch until much later in the year- I know, I know they should have just launched dodgy cars the way Porsche have done in the past. The launch number had been limited to 1955 cars.
Hence sales were low in 2018 as there was no stock around for demonstrations etc.
You’ve really got a bee in your bonnet about the A110 - did one overtake you?
I suspect that not only did one overtake him, but he couldn’t keep up with it after
I think he is one of the Porsche drivers on here that gets upset if anything dares to be better than his anodyne German ubiquity with illuminated door sills and leather air vent flaps
Edited by blueg33 on Saturday 23 May 12:26
Miserablegit said:
You’ve really got a bee in your bonnet about the A110 - did one overtake you?
Not at all, I think what bothers me most is the missed opportunity. It helps none of us if they fail, as pointed out earlier in the thread as well.Just getting a couple of basic ingredients right like marketing and price, even tweaking these just slightly, would have paid dividends and the outcome could have been so very different.
What is interesting about those figures is the significant drop in Porsche volume. I know a few A110 owners moved from Porsche to Alpine ( one of them moved back but he told me, in confidence, he wasn’t cool enough for the Alpine).
In my case Porsche didn’t lose a buyer as there was nothing else in the market I was cross-shopping with before the A110 arrived. I’d considered a 4c a few years before but had resigned myself to saving up more for a nice GT.
I wonder if that was a common occurrence - effectively bringing new buyers into the market rather than stealing sales from elsewhere?
In my case Porsche didn’t lose a buyer as there was nothing else in the market I was cross-shopping with before the A110 arrived. I’d considered a 4c a few years before but had resigned myself to saving up more for a nice GT.
I wonder if that was a common occurrence - effectively bringing new buyers into the market rather than stealing sales from elsewhere?
Lexington59 said:
the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
Where do you get that nonsense from? Alpine originally expected for the PE launch edition to take 18 months to sell - it sold out in less than a week! They planned on 3000 cars a year after that - and they sold double that in 2019. Edited by Lexington59 on Saturday 23 May 11:46
And yes you can buy a manual 718 for less than an Alpine - but then the vast majority specify pdk at an extra cost of £2000. And that's before you add in all the other things that the Alpine has as standard - decent seats, decent lights, cruise control, keyless entry. I have never seen a poverty spec 718 - and I would be astonished if you had either.
And if you really want to compare costs - look at residuals (the Alpine is the best of ANY car and better than all it's rivals) and economy and on and on.
Lexington59 said:
bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
He makes a good point, trying to sell an unknown brand to a brand obsessed market for a price higher than the main competition, (and with a perceived inferior “Clio sourced” interior), is unlikely to be a big seller. This is really where they shot themselves in the foot, the outcome here is really not a huge surprise.
The fact they got it so wrong (in terms of the marketing, not the car, styling aside) to me is the greatest tragedy, since just getting the price point right (pitched just slightly below a base Porsche, with a similar options ‘menu’), with perhaps a tad more spent on marketing to improve brand awareness and they would have sold considerably more.
Why do you keep on trotting out this misinformation which has repeatedly been shown to be bunkum?The fact they got it so wrong (in terms of the marketing, not the car, styling aside) to me is the greatest tragedy, since just getting the price point right (pitched just slightly below a base Porsche, with a similar options ‘menu’), with perhaps a tad more spent on marketing to improve brand awareness and they would have sold considerably more.
1) Spec for spec, option for option the A110 is cheaper than a Porsche 718 - they have done EXACTLY what you said they should do.
2) They have never needed to discount the price despite having produced at around twice the rate they originally planned (well over 8000 to date) so the price was fine.
3) It's comfortably outsold it's main rival in the market they co exist (Europe)
While I might agree that the marketing in the UK was very low key - but given that, until this year, they were struggling to meet overall demand, it wouldn't have made much sense to fire up even more demand.
Price: fact is I can go online today and order a brand new 718 (although it is probably not going to be delivered for some time...) which is actually fairly well equipped with no options for less than an A110. At the time of the launch I could order a 718 for less than 40k. The launch spec A110 was £52k. Pure is 47 vs 44 for the base Cayman, the main established player in the sector. Spec for spec is almost irrelevant, and particularly for the marketing where headline price is all that matters.
Sales: 2018 sales were poor. UK sales, as the 2nd biggest market in Europe were absolutely terrible, the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
As for outselling anything, the 718 comfortable outsold the Alpine in any market you wish to look at, you can manipulate figures any which way you like if it makes you feel better, however this is simply the 'misinformation' accusation you level at me... Pot kettle...
Edited by Lexington59 on Saturday 23 May 11:46
One thing a lot of negative posters on here don't realise is maybe Alpine don't care that their marketing is what it is. There is a charm to an offbeat brand which has a loyal following. It probably doesn't matter if it is a GLOBAL sales success. The French are proud of the Alpine name and maybe it's no bad thing the way they have gone about resurrecting it. I think it's purposeful and honest.
Not every brand has to be like Porsche who are increasingly just prolific money makers.Let's face it, they have increasingly become cynical as a manufacturer and there are plenty more things I dislike about the Porsche brand than the Alpine one.
Finally, don't forget all this about the brand being shut down is so far just conjecture. Nobody can say whether it is a failure or not until it is. I'd rather marvel that Alpine made a pretty good attempt and built a damn good car than wasting time like you have bleating clichéd and misinformed criticisms.
Lexington59 said:
The 718 is one model, I'm not sure Porsche even track the splits, but just like the 911 you can order whichever flavour you want, unlike the Alpine. I'm sure BCR would like the manual Porsche sales removed as well to help his argument
CMoose also addressed the 718 sales earlier in the thread, something like 8k vs 2k Alpines for 2018 and slightly less for 2019 but still comfortably far more than the Alpine.
Look at individual markets like the UK and the numbers are simply awful 171 for 2019 and 142 the year before.
CMoose also addressed the 718 sales earlier in the thread, something like 8k vs 2k Alpines for 2018 and slightly less for 2019 but still comfortably far more than the Alpine.
Look at individual markets like the UK and the numbers are simply awful 171 for 2019 and 142 the year before.
You're like Donald Trump's press officer
Prestonese said:
Not every brand has to be like Porsche who are increasingly just prolific money makers.Let's face it, they have increasingly become cynical as a manufacturer and there are plenty more things I dislike about the Porsche brand than the Alpine one.
How dare they sell real sports cars to real customers and make money. It's an outrage!And those nasty Japanese fellows at Mazda - they're just as bad!
As for Trump and those darned Americans - the sheer gall of launching a mid-engine V8 and taking 40,000 orders. How very dare they!
rockin said:
How dare they sell real sports cars to real customers and make money. It's an outrage!
And those nasty Japanese fellows at Mazda - they're just as bad!
As for Trump and those darned Americans - the sheer gall of launching a mid-engine V8 and taking 40,000 orders. How very dare they!
We need them to make money be they Porsche or Alpine. Let’s face it, without the Cayenne Porsche would probably have died. It’s hard to make money on sports cars in Europe as demonstrated countless time by countless firms. And those nasty Japanese fellows at Mazda - they're just as bad!
As for Trump and those darned Americans - the sheer gall of launching a mid-engine V8 and taking 40,000 orders. How very dare they!
bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
the target was initially 5,000 and they sold less than 2,000. I'll admit the French bought a few in 2019 to help the numbers but surely that's a given, what counts is the opportunity to build the brand in Europe's biggest markets has either been missed completely which is a big fail, or was never targeted which I simply cannot believe, if, as you say, this exercise was meant to be about building the brand.
Where do you get that nonsense from? Alpine originally expected for the PE launch edition to take 18 months to sell - it sold out in less than a week! They planned on 3000 cars a year after that - and they sold double that in 2019. Edited by Lexington59 on Saturday 23 May 11:46
And yes you can buy a manual 718 for less than an Alpine - but then the vast majority specify pdk at an extra cost of £2000. And that's before you add in all the other things that the Alpine has as standard - decent seats, decent lights, cruise control, keyless entry. I have never seen a poverty spec 718 - and I would be astonished if you had either.
And if you really want to compare costs - look at residuals (the Alpine is the best of ANY car and better than all it's rivals) and economy and on and on.
Residuals - yes they're certainly interesting but with such a restricted supply all these cars should be much better than average. I actually see the base manual 718 being slightly better (difference is minimal) but depends on which index you're currently using.
The lease deals and PCP never seemed that competitive though, which may be another area to address, if they get the chance.
Lexington59 said:
Targets were originally discussed earlier in thread. 718 base seats, lights are perfectly fine, base car comes with Xenons as standard but pay the 2 grand extra for LEDs if you wish and I'm sure many do, doesn't usually look so bad on monthly payments. Keyless ? No thanks, why make it easier to steal, I think they're thankfully one of the few who don't fit this unnecessary option as standard. Base car even comes with Nav and a digital radio these days, you really don't need to add anything at all.
Residuals - yes they're certainly interesting but with such a restricted supply all these cars should be much better than average. I actually see the base manual 718 being slightly better (difference is minimal) but depends on which index you're currently using.
The lease deals and PCP never seemed that competitive though, which may be another area to address, if they get the chance.
Targets have been discussed at length - you seem to be manufacturing completely nonsense figures to suit your arguments rather than the figures that Alpine have quoted. Some of us who have us who have waited 18 months for our cars have kept our fingers on Alpines pulse.Residuals - yes they're certainly interesting but with such a restricted supply all these cars should be much better than average. I actually see the base manual 718 being slightly better (difference is minimal) but depends on which index you're currently using.
The lease deals and PCP never seemed that competitive though, which may be another area to address, if they get the chance.
Have you actually owned a Cayman with standard seats and Xenons - I suspect not. I have and the seats were a repeated source of criticism in the family - and the lights are feeble.
You can't have both ways on the one hand saying (as you repeatedly have) that the sales have been artificially restricted - and on the other that they could have sold a lot more doing what you said! It's contradictory nonsense.
bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
Targets were originally discussed earlier in thread. 718 base seats, lights are perfectly fine, base car comes with Xenons as standard but pay the 2 grand extra for LEDs if you wish and I'm sure many do, doesn't usually look so bad on monthly payments. Keyless ? No thanks, why make it easier to steal, I think they're thankfully one of the few who don't fit this unnecessary option as standard. Base car even comes with Nav and a digital radio these days, you really don't need to add anything at all.
Residuals - yes they're certainly interesting but with such a restricted supply all these cars should be much better than average. I actually see the base manual 718 being slightly better (difference is minimal) but depends on which index you're currently using.
The lease deals and PCP never seemed that competitive though, which may be another area to address, if they get the chance.
Targets have been discussed at length - you seem to be manufacturing completely nonsense figures to suit your arguments rather than the figures that Alpine have quoted. Some of us who have us who have waited 18 months for our cars have kept our fingers on Alpines pulse.Residuals - yes they're certainly interesting but with such a restricted supply all these cars should be much better than average. I actually see the base manual 718 being slightly better (difference is minimal) but depends on which index you're currently using.
The lease deals and PCP never seemed that competitive though, which may be another area to address, if they get the chance.
Have you actually owned a Cayman with standard seats and Xenons - I suspect not. I have and the seats were a repeated source of criticism in the family - and the lights are feeble.
You can't have both ways on the one hand saying (as you repeatedly have) that the sales have been artificially restricted - and on the other that they could have sold a lot more doing what you said! It's contradictory nonsense.
BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
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