Alpine A110 to be axed?

[Megaflow]

CABC said:

i live hope that the camless engine will come to market. 600hp from 2L. better mpg.
could be a great pu for TVR 3.0

It won’t happen because it comes with huge cost and complexity for very little benefit. The camshaft is actually very good at what it does when combined with variable timing. True, you can’t open a valve at any point during the cycle, etc, but then why would you want to? There are only limited places you can open a valve in the cycle.

Yes, cam less can offer variable lift, but that can be done today if really needed, but again with cost and complexity, and if the valve can flow enough air for max power at WOT, the it can flow enough at lower power and smaller throttle opens.

[Lexington59]

Joey Deacon said:

Totally agree, if people are going to spend £50K plus on a sports car it better have a Porsche badge on the front so everyone knows they have a sports car. It's a bit like watches, the majority of people know nothing about watches but they will definitely be impressed if you have a Rolex.

Agree. To take the watch metaphor one step further I'd see Alpine Renault as more of a Casio than, say, a Breitling or similar. And if you're going to compete with Rolex then you're clearly going to lose. Not that there's anything wrong with a Casio of course, just I'm not aware of many Casios being successfully sold for Rolex prices...

[lukeharding]

Megaflow said:

CABC said:

i live hope that the camless engine will come to market. 600hp from 2L. better mpg.
could be a great pu for TVR 3.0

It won’t happen because it comes with huge cost and complexity for very little benefit. The camshaft is actually very good at what it does when combined with variable timing. True, you can’t open a valve at any point during the cycle, etc, but then why would you want to? There are only limited places you can open a valve in the cycle.

Yes, cam less can offer variable lift, but that can be done today if really needed, but again with cost and complexity, and if the valve can flow enough air for max power at WOT, the it can flow enough at lower power and smaller throttle opens.

Thats pretty interesting. Is there any benefit to Koeniggsegg doing it or is it just a marketing ploy Orr because they can afford it because they're very detached from the standard market?

[blueg33]

Olivera said:

The Voice said:

As has been said, they got the price point wrong. It’s simply too expensive. That’s why they haven’t sold many.

It needed to be nearer £30k than £50k.

For a bespoke all-aluminium lightweight RWD sports-car platform? Never gonna happen. 30k would reduce it to something like a GT86/BRZ, which gets relentless flak on here...

Stop talking sense, PH is full of people who cant afford a car they want and therefore the car is too expensive - tey never seem to consider that they are too poor.......;)

[TWPC]

Max_Torque said:

As we come out of the "Golden age of the car", ween ourselves off our heady, intoxicating but oh-so-polluting hydrocarbon habit, and perhaps even start to move away from pure consumerism, the changes are going to be absolutely enormous. It'll make the loss of our steel works, or the closure of our coal industry seem trivialby comparison...

Agreed: the structural overcapacity of car manufacturing, especially in high cost western Europe, has to come to an end at some point (unfortunately for those of us who love a spectacular range of cars to choose from) but it's going to be very painful.

I'm just sad that an early casualty is inevitably something expensive and low volume (and sweet handling and fast) like the A110. If our choice of cars is being reduced, I'd far rather dream about choosing between three rather than two £50k mid engine 2 seater sports cars. Who cares if my choice of family size SUVs is cut from 40 models to 30...? (and I'm a boring, SUV-owning middle aged father of three.) I understand that is how economics works but sometimes wish it didn't.

[anonymous-user]

MC Bodge said:

Max_Torque said:

BINGO!


Well if the ICE engine is around for years, you'd best like the one you are driving at the moment, because NO ONE is developing any new ones now.

And if they aren't developing them, you can't buy them, no matter how great you think the ICE actually is..........

Are the manufacturers intending to use mildly updated existing engines/with electric hybrid for the next generation of cars?

Indeed they are. Product plans that typically currently stretch out to around 2025 in detail, and 2030 in a lot less detail had shown most OE's doing new engines with hybridisation into the late 2020's. But that's all changing, and changing very fast. OE's are looking at companies like Tesla, and the chinese EV manufacturers, looking at the constant fall in battery prcies and are axing ANYTHING expensive from the current plans, simply because the risk is they may become white elephants very quickly. Most plans have hybrids really now only runing up to around 2025, with pure EVs being pushed fowards in plans. This is the thing with an EV, you can develop one, and say put 50kWh of battery in for a range of lets say 200 miles, and if in 5 years batteries do halve in costs, then you just stick in 100 kWh of battery and bingo 400 miles of range. The car doesn't really have to change and the costs to do that, to keep your platform competitive are tiny. Spend £100M on a new engine and hybrid system, and in 5 years it's either technically obsolete, have been legislated into obsolecence, or in fact, perhaps has even become socially un-acceptable.

BeVs for passenger cars currently hold almost all the cards. That makes betting against them a risky move, no matter what the next card in the pack happens to actually be. This is the problem of so called "distuptive" technology, it is often the fear of what might happen that drives events rather than what does actually happen.....

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 20th May 16:24

[john41901]

nickfrog said:

The Voice said:

As has been said, they got the price point wrong. It’s simply too expensive. That’s why they haven’t sold many.

It needed to be nearer £30k than £50k.

Yeah it's only a Megane in a frock... apparently.

This. Exactly right.

[TheDrBrian]

Joey Deacon said:

Mainstream sports cars sell in tiny numbers, look at how many GT86s have been sold. How many of the new Toyota Supra will be sold, a handful I bet.

Except one. Miata is always the answer

Joey Deacon said:

The majority of people these days want an SUV so they can sit up high and feel safe.

Sad but true.

Also the bonkers types at Mazda seem to be having at go at HCCI/SkyActiv X engines. I'd love an ND with that engine.

EDIT:messed up the quoting.

Edited by TheDrBrian on Wednesday 20th May 18:50

[Fittster]

nickfrog said:

Joey Deacon said:

Totally agree, if people are going to spend £50K plus on a sports car it better have a Porsche badge on the front so everyone knows they have a sports car. It's a bit like watches, the majority of people know nothing about watches but they will definitely be impressed if you have a Rolex.

Mainstream sports cars sell in tiny numbers, look at how many GT86s have been sold. How many of the new Toyota Supra will be sold, a handful I bet.

The majority of people these days want an SUV so they can sit up high and feel safe.

I am not sure, if I really cared about the badge I would probably prefer something that is not the ubiquitous Porsche and the Alpine badge would appeal to me, far more boutique.
As for SUVs, they are not incompatible with sports cars. If anything, most sports cars on a typical track day are towed...by an SUV.

If you are trying to show off you status (which I'm sure no one here could ever do), it's easy to say "I drive a Porsche"

If you say "I drive an Alpine"

"Oh, one of those modified BMWs"
"No, an Alpine, not an Alpina"
"Oh."
"It's a sports car, using Renault drive train".
"Hmm".

If you have to explain it, it doesn't have a high level of status.

People come up with all sorts of weird logical arguments to justify purchasing status symbols. Go ask on the watch forum why they have spent a fortune on a watch which does nothing better than a timex. None of them will fess up to wanting a status symbol, it will all be about the heritage or engineering.

Coming up with a new brand is hard. Did Toyota achieve it with Lexus? You can make an argument that their cars are up their with Merc/Audi/BMW but you don't see many driving about.

Nissan failed with the Infiniti brand.

Merc couldn't revive maybach

Maybe Telsa will be able to stay as a premium brand.

Edited by Fittster on Wednesday 20th May 17:01

[untakenname]

imo Lexus has made it as a luxury brand in it's own right, the layperson won't think it's related to Toyota.

Was the A110 available to lease? I had a look and couldn't find any, there's no way I'd buy a modern French car and own outright.

[CABC]

Fittster said:

You are trying to show off you status (which I'm sure no one here could ever do), it's easy to say "I drive a Porsche"

If you say "I drive an Alpine"

"Oh, one of those modified BMWs"
"No, an Alpine, not an Alpina"
"Oh."
"It's a sports car, using Renault drive train".
"Hmm".

If you have to explain it, it doesn't have a high level of status.

People come up with all sorts of weird logical arguments to justify purchasing status symbols. Go ask on the watch forum why they have spent a fortune on a watch which does nothing better than a timex. None of them will fess up to wanting a status symbol, it will all be about the heritage or engineering.

not sure of the real status of any car, especially a sports car is today.
general public are either unaware or likely to be dismissive. i drive my cars despite the impression they may give.

[Fittster]

untakenname said:

there's no way I'd buy a modern French car and own outright.

Why wouldn't you? I can show you evidence they are reliable:

https://europe.jdpower.com/press-releases/2019-uk-...

[Fittster]

CABC said:

Fittster said:

You are trying to show off you status (which I'm sure no one here could ever do), it's easy to say "I drive a Porsche"

If you say "I drive an Alpine"

"Oh, one of those modified BMWs"
"No, an Alpine, not an Alpina"
"Oh."
"It's a sports car, using Renault drive train".
"Hmm".

If you have to explain it, it doesn't have a high level of status.

People come up with all sorts of weird logical arguments to justify purchasing status symbols. Go ask on the watch forum why they have spent a fortune on a watch which does nothing better than a timex. None of them will fess up to wanting a status symbol, it will all be about the heritage or engineering.

not sure of the real status of any car, especially a sports car is today.
general public are either unaware or likely to be dismissive. i drive my cars despite the impression they may give.

I'm sure everyone on this forum choose cars based on the dynamic characteristics, without a though given to the badge.

However amongst the general public certain brands are associated with desirable characteristics, which some people may think will rub off on them if they purchase them. Do you think people regard Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche in the same way as Honda, Ford and Nissan?

The amount of money luxury companies are willing to spend to promote and protect their brands suggests there must be something in it.

[CABC]

Fittster said:

I'm sure everyone on this forum choose cars based on the dynamic characteristics, without a though given to the badge.

However amongst the general public certain brands are associated with desirable characteristics, which some people may think will rub off on them if they purchase them. Do you think people regard Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche in the same way as Honda, Ford and Nissan?

The amount of money luxury companies are willing to spend to promote and protect their brands suggests there must be something in it.

if only this forum was exclusively enthusiasts!

my point really is that cars often don't really achieve the status value. more likely to engender resentment or pity for your mid-life crisis.

My answer is, life IS an existential crisis. i need more cars!

[blueg33]

Joey Deacon said:

Totally agree, if people are going to spend £50K plus on a sports car it better have a Porsche badge on the front so everyone knows they have a sports car. It's a bit like watches, the majority of people know nothing about watches but they will definitely be impressed if you have a Rolex.

Sadly this is true

My Dad was having a conversation when we were at the gym, chap was showing off his new rolex, and asked to see my dads watch, we were of to a dinner after so dad showed him what was on his wrist - A Lange and Sohne, the other chap said with a bit of a sneer "that looks ok, but its not a Rolex"

I guess he was right, its not a Rolex......

To be fair though, Porsche have superb marketing and high profile sales centres, the competitors, Lotus, Alpine are not even close at those things, despite making cars that are at least as good if not better to drive.

[MC Bodge]

blueg33 said:

A Lange and Sohne

Is that a good watch?

Does it tell the time better than my Timex?

[Reciprocating mass]

john41901 said:

nickfrog said:

The Voice said:

As has been said, they got the price point wrong. It’s simply too expensive. That’s why they haven’t sold many.

It needed to be nearer £30k than £50k.

Yeah it's only a Megane in a frock... apparently.

This. Exactly right.

Yes all those aluminium chassis megane’s

[JxJ Jr.]

Fittster said:

Coming up with a new brand is hard. Did Toyota achieve it with Lexus? You can make an argument that their cars are up their with Merc/Audi/BMW but you don't see many driving about.

Nissan failed with the Infiniti brand.

Merc couldn't revive maybach

Maybe Telsa will be able to stay as a premium brand.

Edited by Fittster on Wednesday 20th May 17:01

Alpine isn't a new brand, it's a revived one.

Lexus' main target market isn't Europe, it's the US where it has done very well. Ditto Infiniti, but not as well as Lexus, and definitely a failure in Europe.

Maybach's first attempt at a rebirth was indeed a misfire, but the revised approach is doing well. More Maybach S-classes were selling in China than XJs.

[CABC]

MC Bodge said:

Is that a good watch?

Does it tell the time better than my Timex?

a 250 GTO is ok, but a Tesla is faster.

and a Rolex is an entry level premium watch, a bit Mercedes

[Noesph]

Fittster said:

untakenname said:

there's no way I'd buy a modern French car and own outright.

Why wouldn't you? I can show you evidence they are reliable:

https://europe.jdpower.com/press-releases/2019-uk-...

I find it weird that Peugeot is number one, and Citroen is number 18 on that list, when its all the same company, with many Peugeot's and Citroen's being built in the same factory.

Anyway, I'd be sad to see the alpine being axed. I really liked them. I've only seen one in the wild though, on the M25 last year.

Edited by Noesph on Wednesday 20th May 17:49