Alpine A110 to be axed?
Discussion
Miserablegit said:
Yes but it would be snug - the space where a clutch pedal would go is covered by an alloy foot rest - this would have to go and wouldn’t leave space for a foot-rest. Obviously on PH there’s no need for a foot rest as they’d be stirring the cogs every 30 seconds.
Cheers! A foot rest is an essential for me, but appreciate what you’re saying about enthusiastic cog swappers ;-)shih tzu faced said:
Serious question for Alpine owners; for all the ‘shud of bin a manual’ talk, is there actually room in the footwell for a clutch pedal, given that the car was designed from the outset with a dual clutch box?
Edited to clarify; talking about road / production spec cars here rather than stripped out racers (with respect to the above photo).
The bigger problem is actually the gear selection linkage. TTransverse FWD boxes have their gear selector mechs sticking out the back of the box, so when the engine/trans are in the front, it's easy to link to a level in the cabin. Move that same transverse powertrain to behind the cabin and you have a problem, namely how to get the gear mechanism routed through the rear cabin bulkhead and over or around the powertrain, turn 180 degrees and link back to the gearbox. And of course, the powertrain is rubber mounted, so you need to allow for differential movement between the trans and the cabin! Car's like the Elise don't actually have a very nice shift feel because of that very problem, and the cost of engineering in a nice, robust feeling manual gear shift is actually fairly significant (and you increase the production line built time to install and adjust those parts as well). The DSG g/box of course has none of those problems, plug it in, and you're done.........Edited to clarify; talking about road / production spec cars here rather than stripped out racers (with respect to the above photo).
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 28th May 17:15
Good points there Max Torque. For me a manual gearbox - especially in a sports car - should be super slick and satisfying to use (like an MX5). Having a that’ll do’ manual box just for the sake of it would be pointless in my opinion. Far better to set out your stall, do one thing and do it properly. I suspect this is what Alpine did and good for them as far as I’m concerned.
Max_Torque said:
The bigger problem is actually the gear selection linkage. TTransverse FWD boxes have their gear selector mechs sticking out the back of the box, so when the engine/trans are in the front, it's easy to link to a level in the cabin. Move that same transverse powertrain to behind the cabin and you have a problem, namely how to get the gear mechanism routed through the rear cabin bulkhead and over or around the powertrain, turn 180 degrees and link back to the gearbox. And of course, the powertrain is rubber mounted, so you need to allow for differential movement between the trans and the cabin! Car's like the Elise don't actually have a very nice shift feel because of that very problem, and the cost of engineering in a nice, robust feeling manual gear shift is actually fairly significant (and you increase the production line built time to install and adjust those parts as well). The DSG g/box of course has none of those problems, plug it in, and you're done.........
Meh, just stick in a proper British right hand shift. 
HTP99 said:
Pommy said:
HighwayStar said:
blade7 said:
Prestonese said:
I'd much rather he designed a car for me than an internet forum that's for sure.
Enjoy.
While you think about that... here’s his very latest effort. Will it arrive post Covid? Who knows....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/gordon...
Detailed info and videos
https://gordonmurrayautomotive.com/en/#xtrac
Apologies for thread derail...
Anyway, I think the Alpine is fantastic and I haven't heard or read of one bad review of it.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Prestonese said:
HTP99 said:
Pommy said:
HighwayStar said:
blade7 said:
Prestonese said:
I'd much rather he designed a car for me than an internet forum that's for sure.
Enjoy.While you think about that... here’s his very latest effort. Will it arrive post Covid? Who knows....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/gordon...
Detailed info and videos
https://gordonmurrayautomotive.com/en/#xtrac
Apologies for thread derail...
Anyway, I think the Alpine is fantastic and I haven't heard or read of one bad review of it.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Max_Torque said:
Car's like the Elise don't actually have a very nice shift feel because of that very problem, and the cost of engineering in a nice, robust feeling manual gear shift is actually fairly significant (and you increase the production line built time to install and adjust those parts as well). The DSG g/box of course has none of those problems, plug it in, and you're done.........]
I somehow dread to think about it -- but how difficult would it be to simulate a manual gear change? Take a DCT and a placebo, force feedback shift-by-wire gear stick... EPAS has come a long way, and I mean, if it feels the same -- would it matter it's fake? People seem to have accepted noise augmentation, assisted blips with manuals and ECU assisted overrun farting. Kolbenkopp said:
I somehow dread to think about it -- but how difficult would it be to simulate a manual gear change? Take a DCT and a placebo, force feedback shift-by-wire gear stick...
It's the fact that it's so easy to get a gear change wrong that makes it so satisfying when you get it right. Shifting at the right time. Matching the revs just right. Making the transition of torque > no torque > torque seamless. How could you get it wrong with a simulated manual 'box? It would be pointless because the only benefit of a manual gearbox over a DCT is the fun factor. And that's why I've never owned any automatic car.Kolbenkopp said:
I somehow dread to think about it -- but how difficult would it be to simulate a manual gear change?
Not quite the same thing, but some CVTs simulate an auto transmission with fixed ratios - and they do it quite well! Step forward Mr Nissan..."in a CVT, there no actual gears in which the engine can shift, or “step down,” to. So the transmission is programmed via one of the car’s onboard computers to jump to another spot in the powerband and continue accelerating. The result is a fake shift, and the reason for it is to give the driver a more geared-transmission experience since the engine won’t be sitting at redline the whole time."
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-do-cvt-transmissi...
DonkeyApple said:
But that car morphed into the Yamaha prototype which was a very cool car. I had a look round it with GM a few years ago when he’d asked to see an old car of mine and it was a much smarter car than the Smart car. A clever little bit of design but sadly not as eco friendly as a £100k, 2 tonne imported luxo barge.
Great post, thanks for that (also my favourite text ever featuring the word "trombonist" 
). That Yamaha concept and it's sports cousin (which seems to have morphed to the T43?) looked *very* promising. GMD's previous efforts certainly a marvel of packaging, but took the styling too far -- "taller than wide" seems to be un-marketable, no matter if the engineering all lines up. Same for things like the effing grilles. People want to have one, larger the better, so they get one (see A2 facelift or the evolution of Passat fronts). The Yamaha versions nailed all the styling -- but they canned their entire 4 wheel programme. A sad loss.
BTW, still curious to learn about what car GM was interested, if that is something that can be shared online?
rockin said:
Not quite the same thing, but some CVTs simulate an auto transmission with fixed ratios - and they do it quite well! Step forward Mr Nissan...
"in a CVT, there no actual gears in which the engine can shift, or “step down,” to. So the transmission is programmed via one of the car’s onboard computers to jump to another spot in the powerband and continue accelerating. The result is a fake shift, and the reason for it is to give the driver a more geared-transmission experience since the engine won’t be sitting at redline the whole time."
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-do-cvt-transmissi...
i have a CVT with 7 "gears" in a Rav4. i'm a big fan of manual shifting in sports cars, but i really like the smooth operation of the cvt in a family hack like the Rav4. i do occasionally use the paddles to effect an overtake and the gears work quite well, far better than using sports mode to wake the drivetrain up. it really is quite convincing. however, if you have a real manual to compare it with there is a mechanical connection missing. but the world is changing and modern high power drivetrains might struggle to allow idiot humans to marry torque to gears, in which case i could see cvts having a role. can't believe i just typed that. but if you accept sports cars can be 1500kg all bets are off!"in a CVT, there no actual gears in which the engine can shift, or “step down,” to. So the transmission is programmed via one of the car’s onboard computers to jump to another spot in the powerband and continue accelerating. The result is a fake shift, and the reason for it is to give the driver a more geared-transmission experience since the engine won’t be sitting at redline the whole time."
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-do-cvt-transmissi...
LunarOne said:
It's the fact that it's so easy to get a gear change wrong that makes it so satisfying when you get it right. Shifting at the right time. Matching the revs just right. Making the transition of torque > no torque > torque seamless. How could you get it wrong with a simulated manual 'box?
That's the thing -- why not program a simulated manual gear box so that it punishes the driver for a wrong shift? Wrecked synchros and burned clutches optional, but also possible for the truly hard-core? With enough work put in, I'd guess a fake manual could do all that. Think if one goes a bit further with this thought experiment, the conclusion is that the enjoyment of a manual isn't a sensual thing alone. It is closely linked to the design of the powertrain. You'd also want the reduced cost, weight and complexity that comes with a manual gearbox, on top of the "fun to drive" enjoyment.
DoubleD said:
Wasnt the actual reason that they couldnt afford to offer both, so they went for an automatic?
From the horses mouth. Some will interpret it as the budget was there. I’ll go with they opted not spend it for the few.https://www.topgear.com/car-news/geneva-motor-show...
HighwayStar said:
DoubleD said:
Wasnt the actual reason that they couldnt afford to offer both, so they went for an automatic?
From the horses mouth. Some will interpret it as the budget was there. I’ll go with they opted not spend it for the few.https://www.topgear.com/car-news/geneva-motor-show...
Its a shame though, as this reduces choice.
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