Alternator & Fuel pump failures

[a110au]

update on my PE

fuel pump failure at 3 years and 10,000 miles

symptoms: a few seconds of hesitation, then dies.
wont start or
starts idles then fails.
almost every error possible, including injector message.

renault dealer said they hoped it was a megane part but no - it comes from france and might be 6 weeks.

“before covid it took a week to get a part not in stock”

not too happy that there are VIN based recalls for high probability alternator failures but not for fuel pumps.
I knew this was gonna happen. If I knew, with just forum data, then renault/alpine knows.

it really is unsafe to have cars running around on highways with high probability fuel pump failures. imho

[a110au]

although renault found a fuel pump in melbourne, and my car is fixed, I am still chewing over this fuel pump issue.

interesting the megane 280/300 owners (same engine) have the same issue, same failure symptom, and a selective recall. here is the multi page thread:

https://www.renaultsportclub.co.uk/forum/renaultsp...

what is interesting to me is:
a) not every 280/300 in the same year was recalled
b) some people had a failure, but were not recalled
c) at least one person had a new failure with the swapped pump
d) the recall specifically says the new pump part number should be installed but at least one person got the same part number
e) renault told one owner that “countermeasures” at the fuel regulator “had been applied” for some 2019 cars therefore the old pump should not need a recall for those.

would be interesting to confirm the part numbers are as described in the megane thread so for all intents whatever issues Megane 1.8 had or is still having, applies to A110 too.

Edited by a110au on Saturday 21st January 11:04

[Whaleblue]

Re c) and d) is it known whether anyone has had failures with the new part number pump?

[worldwidewebs]

There have been a number of part revisions - the latest one is from October I think.

[a110au]

when I pick up mine I will quiz them on part numbers. they woudlnt let me keep the broken one something about warranty requirements.

[a110au]

worldwidewebs said:

There have been a number of part revisions - the latest one is from October I think.

Are any of then a different vertical size or in any other external difference.
And if so, whats the p/n for a true fix?

I think I may know why mine and some others burned out.

fwiw the original 2019 part was this p/n 6020016199C



dealer replaced mine under warranty with 6020019628 from spares stock, and a 1 year warranty for it but I do not think its a pure internal issue nor a “bad batch” of pumps.

[worldwidewebs]

a110au said:

Are any of then a different vertical size or in any other external difference.
And if so, whats the p/n for ?

Sorry, I don't know. When mine failed at the end of October I chatted to the tech at the dealership. He told me they had 3 fuel pumps on the shelf but that Alpine had instructed them not to use them and send them back, and to await the new part number (that I subsequently had fitted). He also told me there had been a few revisions but apparently they knew exactly what the issue was (!) and this new part should finally sort it - we shall see.

Also, no car that had had a replacement had been back to this specific dealership. I suppose that's almost to be expected though as even if the failure rate were 10% (I don't believe it's that high) the chance of having 2 fail would be 10% of 10%, or just 1%. They haven't done 100 replacements so a bit of fag-packet maths bears that out.

Fingers crossed for you though


Edited to add: It's not a "bad batch", just either "bad design" or "bad manufacture".

[a110au]

ok so here is my theory I derived from facebook posts and Alpine Japan printed honesty, and a bit of common sense.

when the car is in a hotter climate and gets thoroughly heat soaked, the fuel tank distorts and causes the impeller to get pressure and rub and the pump burns out. whether this is more likely with lower fuel level, I do not know. Fuel is pumped round and round and is heated by engine bay. 10 liters will get very hot very fast.

in my case it was two hour drive in summer then stopping after some slower traffic and 1/3rd tank. it failed immediately.

In the case of a Japan guy, he has had 3 failures all warm weather I bet. In the case of a dubai guy his car caught fire (oil) because it threw a rod through the block probably from going lean due to low fuel pressure perhaps due to heat as well.

I dont think Alpine europe are being honest and thats why I am wondering if the pump has really yet been redesigned so it cannot be burned out this way.

my own concern selfishly is i have been given a random in stock pump and a one year warranty and one day it will be hot and it will happen and who knows: car might be stranded unsafely, or it may go lean and damage the engine or just be a major headache plus a 1000 euro repair. (correct pump is a silly price). all out of warranty.

Not sure who/where/how to get to the bottom of it. I want to get to truth of it.

[worldwidewebs]

Not really sure it's temperature related. Mine failed when it was flipping freezing here after a couple of hours of leisurely driving

[a110au]

worldwidewebs said:

Not really sure it's temperature related. Mine failed when it was flipping freezing here after a couple of hours of leisurely driving

it can easily be both. they recalled a number known to have production defects, (mine not on that list) perhaps yours was. But a fuel pump should never burn itself our and yet it is happening including after replacement, or non recalled.

Denso japan had a huge fuel pump recall campaign recently due to impellers swelling from fuel and binding. subaru and others took it seriously even though total failure was rare instead cars might run rough or hesitate.

The a110 has had heat surprises: re designed wheel well cooling and every owner knows how hot the frunk can run in any weather.

If the current pump is physically different instead of just being correctly made, there was something up beyond just bad tolerances internally on one early batch. and anyone who does not have the new design may never encounter the situation where the old design draws too much current perhaps from fuel tank rub or heat or low fuel and heat, and fails while in use..

Edited by a110au on Friday 27th January 16:05

[Miserablegit]

Interesting- I wonder if it might also have been a reaction to higher levels of ethanol in lower grade fuel?

[a110au]

Miserablegit said:

Interesting- I wonder if it might also have been a reaction to higher levels of ethanol in lower grade fuel?

The large Denso recall/failure was due to an extended period of a manufacturing defect - something about incorrect density plastic being used or the plastic curing process being wrong, caused the impellers to swell over time and this would cause clearances to close up and friction.

The Alpine Japan recall advice/notice specifically identified that the cover over the impeller had insufficient clearance I'm taking a guess this was behind whatever stealth or actual 2019 recall worldwide Alpine did on fuel pumps in certain VINs.

This still leaves open an explanation for failures in pumps like mine that were not listed as needing recall. Hence the hot weather / tank clearance theory. I've half a mind to remove my pump and see how close the bottom is to the tank floor, and how pressing on the base of the pump might warp it

One thing for sure if I'm going on a longer trip in hot weather I'm going to remain nervous. It only takes one complete loss of engine power event to get PTSD lol.

Alpine Japan document:


translation:


Note the recall info doc specifically mentions *fuel temperature*.

here is the Denso patent for identifying the correct material for an impeller that does not change size too much with temperature or water content in fuel:
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/20180298857.pdf

Edited by a110au on Saturday 28th January 01:35

[Miserablegit]

Many thanks for that au

[LGC-Adams]

How interesting. Assume the A110 pump is a Denso model (presumably from Nissan parts bin?).
Just Googled "Denso fuel pump recall".....heck!!! Numerous car brands affected.

Edited by LGC-Adams on Saturday 28th January 11:16

[Martyn P]

So we can definitely chalk another one up to fuel pump failure.

Car died on me last Thursday, just collected it this afternoon from Martins Winchester, now fully repaired. They ordered the spares on Monday and all fixed in one day. As always great service from them. Seems they have seen at least 3 pump failures in the last 6 weeks.

Interestingly when I made a complaint directly to Alpine Customer Care (strangely located in Germany) they took it very seriously and followed up closely. Good response and service.The gentlemen on the end of the phone guessed (wrongly) that it might be the alternator, as he knows they have had a lot of failures.

So not happy that this is the third time I have had to use Alpine Assist (who again have been very helpful) for non-starting but pleased it has been sorted out so quickly and without too much hassle.

Finally, when at Winchester, I had a turbo pipe replaced under warranty (not a recall), seems Alpine are aware of a potential problem. Anyone else had this done?

[aea730]

Im really on the edge of moving on from the Golf TCR and buying one of these cars but I have to say reading this thread is slightly disconcerting. I know any car can go wrong but it does seem there is more than a realistic chance of ending up stranded and it being a bit of lottery as to when and where.

I just wondered if there is any information a buyer can find on a potential car ie whether it has had the fuel pump replaced. Even so it does seem there is no guarantee the fault won't recurr

What advice would you offer around trying to cover this when looking to buy a 1-2 yr old car

[milfordkong]

aea730 said:

Im really on the edge of moving on from the Golf TCR and buying one of these cars but I have to say reading this thread is slightly disconcerting. I know any car can go wrong but it does seem there is more than a realistic chance of ending up stranded and it being a bit of lottery as to when and where.

I just wondered if there is any information a buyer can find on a potential car ie whether it has had the fuel pump replaced. Even so it does seem there is no guarantee the fault won't recurr

What advice would you offer around trying to cover this when looking to buy a 1-2 yr old car

Following for an answer to this question... Really want to get into an A110 but I don't want an unreliable car....

[Down4wotever]

Martyn P said:

So we can definitely chalk another one up to fuel pump failure.

Car died on me last Thursday, just collected it this afternoon from Martins Winchester, now fully repaired. They ordered the spares on Monday and all fixed in one day. As always great service from them. Seems they have seen at least 3 pump failures in the last 6 weeks.

Interestingly when I made a complaint directly to Alpine Customer Care (strangely located in Germany) they took it very seriously and followed up closely. Good response and service.The gentlemen on the end of the phone guessed (wrongly) that it might be the alternator, as he knows they have had a lot of failures.

So not happy that this is the third time I have had to use Alpine Assist (who again have been very helpful) for non-starting but pleased it has been sorted out so quickly and without too much hassle.

Finally, when at Winchester, I had a turbo pipe replaced under warranty (not a recall), seems Alpine are aware of a potential problem. Anyone else had this done?

A110s just into year 3 and under 6,000 miles. Serviced with Alpine/Renault Hayes in Jan and they mentioned the turbo pipe was on back order, 2 weeks later I noticed a gradual hesitation on start up, luckily car was home when it completed couldn't fire up. They sent the RAC down who replaced the battery following their checks which confirmed the charge from the alternator was ok and battery kaput. Car went back to Hayes and they replaced the turbo pipe, checked the charging etc, but yes it does leave a sour taste. The RAC chap mentioned an unfortunate lady whose car stopped abruptly on the M25 as in no power and she had to scamper to safety.

[Down4wotever]

Down4wotever said:

A110s just into year 3 and under 6,000 miles. Serviced with Alpine/Renault Hayes in Jan and they mentioned the turbo pipe was on back order, 2 weeks later I noticed a gradual hesitation on start up, luckily car was home when it completed couldn't fire up. They sent the RAC down who replaced the battery following their checks which confirmed the charge from the alternator was ok and battery kaput. Car went back to Hayes and they replaced the turbo pipe, checked the charging etc, but yes it does leave a sour taste. The RAC chap mentioned an unfortunate lady whose car stopped abruptly on the M25 as in no power and she had to scamper to safety.

To clarify, that car which lost all power on the M25 was an Alpine A110

[a110au]

milfordkong said:

Following for an answer to this question... Really want to get into an A110 but I don't want an unreliable car....

the engine is nissan, most of the parts are Bosch or Japanese. The ecu is hitachi. The gearbox is Getrag. The problem seems to be isolated to this fuel pump situation which appears to have been made worse by a reluctance of Alpine to pro-actively replace every single one that may be even slightly prone to burning out, and communicate more clearly regarding the underlying cause, and solution.

if there still lingers a residual alternator problem I am less worried because you can run on battery for enough time to pull over safely.