2022 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and national rally)
Discussion
LastPoster said:
I think Ford were the last to be that Factory based team model at that point. It seemed to came back into favour with Peugeot, then Citroen and then VW.
Back to Biasion, whilst undoubtedly good, I don't think he was ever regarded as being as quick as the Finns of the same era at Lancia (Alen/Kankunnen)
Originally, the last year of Boreham was meant to be 1994; in 1995 they were run by RAS Sport in Belgium. However, as that was less than successful, they went back to Boreham. And since 1997, M-Sport.Back to Biasion, whilst undoubtedly good, I don't think he was ever regarded as being as quick as the Finns of the same era at Lancia (Alen/Kankunnen)
Most of the French teams were true factory teams, as were Skoda, Seat. The first iteration of Hyundai was run by MSD in Milton Keynes, I think.
I will finally add that I think Miki did certainly usher in the new southern European generations dominance, after him came Sainz and Auriol and then finally Loeb, Ogier who ended up dominating rallying for a long time.
Miki could win anywhere other than perhaps Sweden and UK, his Safari wins came from months of effort and testing as Safari wins often did, he was quick on most gravel events and always tar, balance that with how fairly hopeless Juha always had been on asphalt and you have a fair balance, he was utterly dominant in 88 and 89 and maybe even 87. in series that sort of biased gravel driver above all, as back then it was always though southern Euro drivers could only drive on tar.
Miki changed that and brought it back to what it was like perhaps more with Munari, Darniche, Nicolas and the like in the Lancia and Alpine days. but his time at Ford was a blot on his career, interestingly he was also offered a Toyota role, but perhaps saw Sainz as a threat and the Escort looked really like the best car potentially.
Miki could win anywhere other than perhaps Sweden and UK, his Safari wins came from months of effort and testing as Safari wins often did, he was quick on most gravel events and always tar, balance that with how fairly hopeless Juha always had been on asphalt and you have a fair balance, he was utterly dominant in 88 and 89 and maybe even 87. in series that sort of biased gravel driver above all, as back then it was always though southern Euro drivers could only drive on tar.
Miki changed that and brought it back to what it was like perhaps more with Munari, Darniche, Nicolas and the like in the Lancia and Alpine days. but his time at Ford was a blot on his career, interestingly he was also offered a Toyota role, but perhaps saw Sainz as a threat and the Escort looked really like the best car potentially.
Ya, with Breen he's made a good few mistakes but at least he tends to bring the car back in relatively one piece. Loubet and Greensmith, if they have an off, it tends to be a lot of damage!
Bit of a telling interview with Millener of Msport there, he seemed to be quite concerned with the cost. Cost of the crash, cost of coming to new Zealand and not getting the good result. I mean, if you are coming to a top level event, how are you meant to push to 10 tenths if you're already questioning the cost of it all? That creeping doubt has to be making it's way into the drivers hence the mistakes.
Look at Breen today so far, yes he's had great road position but his times have been very fast, that could be down to the pressure being off and not having to balancing fighting for the win with bringing the car home?
Bit of a telling interview with Millener of Msport there, he seemed to be quite concerned with the cost. Cost of the crash, cost of coming to new Zealand and not getting the good result. I mean, if you are coming to a top level event, how are you meant to push to 10 tenths if you're already questioning the cost of it all? That creeping doubt has to be making it's way into the drivers hence the mistakes.
Look at Breen today so far, yes he's had great road position but his times have been very fast, that could be down to the pressure being off and not having to balancing fighting for the win with bringing the car home?
GravelBen said:
Will be interesting to hear what Greensmith has to say about it, his speed/braking point there was optimistic enough that I wondered if he had a pace note wrong from recce.
His line on entry was so obviously wrong, properly amateur hour stuff.Edited by GravelBen on Friday 30th September 23:59
If you employ drives based on money then you are either going to get a Wilson, who was slow enough to not damage cars or a Greensmith who thinks he is fast coz everybody has told him he is, but we all know different, it's about time Msport sacked him off and started taking on people who are least reliable.
They cannot afford Fourcrash, Breen and Greensmith, two crash routinely and one doesn't get results but pays for his ride or his Dad does.
I get why they have or need to be there, but they do not have the resources to compete for the big drivers, when they did they bloody won it! Mainly thanks to VW however, doubt they would have been able to afford Ogier otherwise.
They cannot afford Fourcrash, Breen and Greensmith, two crash routinely and one doesn't get results but pays for his ride or his Dad does.
I get why they have or need to be there, but they do not have the resources to compete for the big drivers, when they did they bloody won it! Mainly thanks to VW however, doubt they would have been able to afford Ogier otherwise.
ArnageWRC said:
I don't think they can afford to 'sack him off' - he (or his dad) puts a significant budget towards the programme.
In all honesty, it's no way to run a WRC programme.....but, Ford won't commit properly, so somebody has to fund it.
M-Sport have tied themselves to Ford for such a long time, and they never fund them properly.In all honesty, it's no way to run a WRC programme.....but, Ford won't commit properly, so somebody has to fund it.
I suspect Malcolm would love to bag a different manufacturer, but WRC is such a poor platform for sinking money into it's just impossible to find a decent backer. That's really the big story for rallying, it's gone from a huge platform for manufacturers to a cottage industry.
You need to go back to the push for live TV coverage and throwing the USP of the sport out the window to see when the rot set in.
Well that's another IOM rally done. Had spectators at both our locations, no sign of any "pens" all of us had a good time. Apart from the weather on the first loop, it was horrendous. High winds and rain. Most of the crews I managed to speak to felt in places they were actually floating rather than just aquaplaning.
The trouble with WRC is it is now owned like rallycross by a media giant, who will only allow you to watch it live by payuing for it. Neither sport is big enough for this, but they dont care it is about dollar.
WRC was on just about every terrestrial channel in he UK and never settled apart from the early Beeb days and the Burns McRae golden era in the early 2000;s when it was getting to be as popular as any other motorsport in Britain. I had mates asking me aout it at work as they know I watched it, that has not happened since.
You can blame lots of things, WRC rules got silly, Citroen just outspent everyone and found a driver who single handedly turned WRC into am one man show, then found another one who achieved far more in my book by doing it with numerous makes, but still people dont like domination. TV certainly does not, so there you have it.
Msport do rallying to sell R5's and the other stuff, that is their core lets face it, and I for one think WRC should be R5 based, Skoda have the right idea hundreds of cars made, best car in the field, and they are not anywhere near WRC, they realised it was not for them and moved on. It needs others to dot he same and force red Bull to get off their fat arse and do some work.
WRC was on just about every terrestrial channel in he UK and never settled apart from the early Beeb days and the Burns McRae golden era in the early 2000;s when it was getting to be as popular as any other motorsport in Britain. I had mates asking me aout it at work as they know I watched it, that has not happened since.
You can blame lots of things, WRC rules got silly, Citroen just outspent everyone and found a driver who single handedly turned WRC into am one man show, then found another one who achieved far more in my book by doing it with numerous makes, but still people dont like domination. TV certainly does not, so there you have it.
Msport do rallying to sell R5's and the other stuff, that is their core lets face it, and I for one think WRC should be R5 based, Skoda have the right idea hundreds of cars made, best car in the field, and they are not anywhere near WRC, they realised it was not for them and moved on. It needs others to dot he same and force red Bull to get off their fat arse and do some work.
jsf said:
M-Sport have tied themselves to Ford for such a long time, and they never fund them properly.
I suspect Malcolm would love to bag a different manufacturer, but WRC is such a poor platform for sinking money into it's just impossible to find a decent backer. That's really the big story for rallying, it's gone from a huge platform for manufacturers to a cottage industry.
You need to go back to the push for live TV coverage and throwing the USP of the sport out the window to see when the rot set in.
Yes, I've thought this for years....we were told how it was to be the saviour of the sport. Never happened......I suspect Malcolm would love to bag a different manufacturer, but WRC is such a poor platform for sinking money into it's just impossible to find a decent backer. That's really the big story for rallying, it's gone from a huge platform for manufacturers to a cottage industry.
You need to go back to the push for live TV coverage and throwing the USP of the sport out the window to see when the rot set in.
Drumroll said:
Well that's another IOM rally done. Had spectators at both our locations, no sign of any "pens" all of us had a good time. Apart from the weather on the first loop, it was horrendous. High winds and rain. Most of the crews I managed to speak to felt in places they were actually floating rather than just aquaplaning.
I watched it on Facebook, and yesterday afternoon it looked pretty unpleasant; however, it brightened up - and 2 hours later that weather turned up over here. Today there were a few streams, and plenty of decent action...ArnageWRC said:
Yes, I've thought this for years....we were told how it was to be the saviour of the sport. Never happened......
If you recall, David Richards bought the rights to the championship when he bought ISC from Bernie, or at least he thought he did, then it was realised he didn't own what he thought he had and the FIA still had significant control, with Max and David banging heads, the TV coverage died as he pulled investment and things like the helicopter coverage was canned. He then bailed completely.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/oct/03/moto...
He had some big plans to digitise the sport. The changes they made to achieve that killed it, it's such a shame.
I think people just moved on, but for a guy like DR so involved since the 70's to be treated like that by the sport and Mosley is a joke, you could see why, that era the sport was huge, the threat to f1 was starting to be huge just like GpB and WSPC that were both killed by F1 ego amongst other things., it was getting big numbers huge attendances to watch, and look what happened, it completely fell on its sword.
I am not sure DR being there would have done anything to stop that as Suzuki and Subaru quit, SEAT, Mitsubishi Skoda aswell, it sort of all fell apart.
But again I fall back to my theory of WRC being R5 and R5+ based, it is the ONLY way you will get big numkbers in that series.
But Red Bull wont do it as they think people are only interested in manufacturers, but really it is only THEM that is interested, just like IMG did with rallycross and that is now on its backside dying a slow, milk cart death.
I am not sure DR being there would have done anything to stop that as Suzuki and Subaru quit, SEAT, Mitsubishi Skoda aswell, it sort of all fell apart.
But again I fall back to my theory of WRC being R5 and R5+ based, it is the ONLY way you will get big numkbers in that series.
But Red Bull wont do it as they think people are only interested in manufacturers, but really it is only THEM that is interested, just like IMG did with rallycross and that is now on its backside dying a slow, milk cart death.
jsf said:
If you recall, David Richards bought the rights to the championship when he bought ISC from Bernie, or at least he thought he did, then it was realised he didn't own what he thought he had and the FIA still had significant control, with Max and David banging heads, the TV coverage died as he pulled investment and things like the helicopter coverage was canned. He then bailed completely.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/oct/03/moto...
He had some big plans to digitise the sport. The changes they made to achieve that killed it, it's such a shame.
Yes, I recall all that. I also remember back to Rally Catalunya in 2000 and there was an interview with Burns on Radio 5 on the Thursday afternoon, before the event - and on the Sunday morning Sports show a longer interview with DR, about his plans to revolutionise the WRC. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/oct/03/moto...
He had some big plans to digitise the sport. The changes they made to achieve that killed it, it's such a shame.
There was a short-lived 'golden era' (1999-2005) when manufacturers signed up, and I think they all waited for the riches to come rolling in. The improved TV, media coverage never really materialised, 16 rounds was expensive - and one by one manufacturers left. Peugeot, Mitsubishi & Skoda all at once.....at the end of 2005.
Gassing Station | Rallying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff