2023 rallying thread (WRC, ERC, national and historics)

[Beethree]

It does seem like everyone would prefer a Rally2 too category and ditch Rally1…

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

thepawbroon said:

You've got to admire Kalle and the Toyota Gazoo team for their performance, but that, the general lack of Rally1 cars and the performance gap between Rally1 and Rally2 is slowly killing the sport as a spectacle. Portugal was pretty much settled on SS4 when Tanak punctured. Neuville lost 7 minutes over the last 4 stages and still finished 5th, ahead of the WRC2 battle.

The championship is pretty much over again on Round 5 of 13. We have five consecutive gravel rallies where Kalle will most likely do exactly the same, with any other winner being distributed between Ogier, Neuville and perhaps Tanak and Evans, none of whom will catch Kalle.

Surely it's time to move the top class to something like Rally2? Even if it goes straight to Rally2 as soon as Toyota homologate their car, there will be Skoda and Citroen in the mix, along with the current 3 teams. Give Ford/M-SPort some leeway to bring in a Puma Rally2, to match their marketing aims. Renault probably are not too far from having a suitable car and perhaps Suzuki via their Spanish set up?

I think the days of pure-works teams are over - the whole of rallying should be based on customer-accessible cars again. A Rally2 philosophy will allow importers / privateers to have the same car as the top teams. The top teams will still win,, because they have the best drivers, budgets, testing scope etc.

Every now and then you'll get a privateer / local driver scoring a big result - nothing wrong with that. Look at F1, people still rave about the days the Panis, Ocon, Gasly etc won a single GP.

And as for Solberg getting a penalty for doing donuts..... that's just crazy.

I really despair about how this amazing sport is being left to rot by the promotors/FIA. It's such a shame.

if you go back to rallying in the 80's the time gaps between the top 10 were ridiculous. over an hour between 1st and 10th. I often wonder whether a driver like Callum Black, if you could transport him back to the 1980's and give him an A2 Quattro, whether he'd finish in the top 6. It's guaranteed he'd finish in the top 10. And yeah the events were longer, but so what.

Portugal 84 for reference.

1st 1 Mikkola, Hannu
Audi quattro A2 FI B11 7h 35m 32s --:--
2nd 2 Alen, Markku
Lancia Rally 037 evo FI B11 +27s --:--
3rd 5 Bettega, Attilio
Lancia Rally 037 evo IT B11 +22m 49s 0:06
4th 8 Biasion, Massimo
Lancia Rally 037 evo IT B11 +23m 50s 0:10
5th 9 Ragnotti, Jean
Renault 5 Turbo FR B10 +38m 10s --:--
6th 4 Rohrl, Walter
Audi quattro A2 DE B11 +45m 50s 0:10
7th 17 Grundel, Karl
Volkswagen Golf GTi SE A7 +1h 03m 28s --:--
8th 22 Ortigao, Jorge
Toyota Corolla PT A6 +1h 44m 12s --:--
9th 27 Dorche, Christian
Citroen Visa FR B10 +1h 49m 31s --:--
10th 20 Gooding, Russell
Vauxhall Chevette 2300HSR GB B11 +1h 59m 35s 0:03

[thepawbroon]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

if you go back to rallying in the 80's the time gaps between the top 10 were ridiculous. over an hour between 1st and 10th. I often wonder whether a driver like Callum Black, if you could transport him back to the 1980's and give him an A2 Quattro, whether he'd finish in the top 6. It's guaranteed he'd finish in the top 10. And yeah the events were longer, but so what.

It's a good point - look at Russell Gooding in 10th place in a Chevette. He was a decent driver, but not necessarily world-class. I think Callum Black is at the very least comparable.


I think one of the issues here is that the promotor is trying to sell WRC as a second-by-second all-action event, same as F1. Whereas in reality, rallying is often a mixture of pure speed, strategy, reliability, technical spec, personal challenges, weather, etc. The current WRC coverage does not get that across, and if the time gaps were anything like 1984, it would be a dull watch.

But, films of the 1984 season are brilliant! The event reports came out some days after the rally, the director had time to produce a compelling programme from lots of material, focussing on whatever story emerged from the event. In that case, there's a lot to be read into the event...

27 sec is a tiny lead after 685 stage kms
Reigning World Champion v's someone desperate to win the WRC
Last year's winner v's previous year's winner
4WD production based car v's 2WD prototype-based car
4 drivers who were World-Champion level retired from the event
A double world-champion was back in 6th, 45 mins off the lead
A fairly unknown British driver was 10th

I feel that WRC just does not match the current promotional methods, all those similar stories are getting lost, and are only available to the subscribers of WRCLive and Dirtfish podcasts. I haven't seen Greensmith's WRC2 win mentioned anywhere outside the specialist channels.

Edited by thepawbroon on Monday 15th May 14:23

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

thepawbroon said:

It's a good point - look at Russell Gooding in 10th place in a Chevette. He was a decent driver, but not necessarily world-class. I think Callum Black is at the very least comparable.


I think one of the issues here is that the promotor is trying to sell WRC as a second-by-second all-action event, same as F1. Whereas in reality, rallying is often a mixture of pure speed, strategy, reliability, technical spec, personal challenges, weather, etc. The current WRC coverage does not get that across, and if the time gaps were anything like 1984, it would be a dull watch.

But, films of the 1984 season are brilliant! The event reports came out some days after the rally, the director had time to produce a compelling programme from lots of material, focussing on whatever story emerged from the event. In that case, there's a lot to be read into the event...

27 sec is a tiny lead after 685 stage kms
Reigning World Champion v's someone desperate to win the WRC
Last year's winner v's previous year's winner
4WD production based car v's 2WD prototype-based car
4 drivers who were World-Champion level retired from the event
A double world-champion was back in 6th, 45 mins off the lead
A fairly unknown British driver was 10th

I feel that WRC just does not match the current promotional methods, all those similar stories are getting lost, and are only available to the subscribers of WRCLive and Dirtfish podcasts. I haven't seen Greensmith's WRC2 win mentioned anywhere outside the specialist channels.

Edited by thepawbroon on Monday 15th May 14:23

I've said the same for years.

Rallying is a story. It needs lots of atmosphere, scenery, locations. Story telling from each drivers perspective. I'd probably re-subscribe to WRC+ if it had a 30 min, excellently crafted review of the event. With lots of camera shots not from the main feed,from road sections etc etc. It also needs just one 'live' stage per rally. Make that the big thing of the weekend, and may be it would encourage people to A) go out to the event, b) watch the highlights.

Centralised servicing doesn't help , and neither does rally 2. Better I think, to have end of day servicing of a centralised nature, remove rally 2, but allow chase cars et al, to service cars in the time the have before going OTL after a stage - where it may be required. Stumbling across an Ogier, having his wheel put back on by two techs servicing out of a Land Cruiser, down a narrow rocky Sardinian track, with the sun beating down, and Seb slugging on a glass of coke has got more romance to it than a full service pit crew in a massive awning. - IMHO

[ArnageWRC]

Nothing will change, the current lot will carry on as normal; something is up when even one of the top drivers thinks there's something wrong.......

Personally, the sport, the promotion, the event formats all need a massive shake up; it's stale, the whole lot of it.

[Drumroll]

ArnageWRC said:

Nothing will change, the current lot will carry on as normal; something is up when even one of the top drivers thinks there's something wrong.......

Personally, the sport, the promotion, the event formats all need a massive shake up; it's stale, the whole lot of it.

It is difficult, clearly most people I speak to in the UK don't rate the current format of WRC. but the question is what does the rest of the world feel about it.

[epom]

The cars, it all comes down to the cars, I think. Don’t get me wrong Group B was incredible, the speed of todays cars is genuinely astonishing, but, they have absolutely no relevance to anything you buy.

[sanf]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

Stumbling across an Ogier, having his wheel put back on by two techs servicing out of a Land Cruiser, down a narrow rocky Sardinian track, with the sun beating down, and Seb slugging on a glass of coke has got more romance to it than a full service pit crew in a massive awning. - IMHO

RAC Rally 1994, the first year we followed it without adult supervision....in a farmyard in Wales somewhere we came across 2 Subaru Impreza's being serviced, saw both Sainz & McRae - I was actually looking under the bonnet standing next to one of the crews. Brilliant memory and very unique to rallying.

Rallying is a niche sport, with an event lasting 3 days you need to have committed followers, and in today's world of social media snippets it's not a great fit. However if the promoters can focus on the core fans events still pull a lot of people to watch them. Following an event all over the country is in itself part of the spectator experience. We ran the start of this years East Riding Stages in Beverley Market place - it was buzzing with locals, loads of interest. The small Cafe Nero in the market place had done a full days taking by 10.30 and set a new record for takings, and that was on a Sunday. When you take rallying to the people there is still interest.

Rally 1 cars, while they are spectacular are so expensive and not attracting other manufacturers, the hybrid supplier contract hasn't been renewed yet, so who knows what is going on. You stick the top drivers in a Golf cart and they'd look spectacular. As has been suggested it would be great for them to switch to Rally 2 cars.

There is currently, Skoda, Ford, Citroen, Peugeot, Hyundai, Proton & Toyota (almost) with homologated cars. Skoda recently sold the 500th Rally2/R5 Fabia, so the customer demand is really there. The idea of top local drivers mixing it with the WRC crews on local events is always a great story especially for getting local interest, and you end with event specialists that might get called into a WRC team to help out, plus it would make the pathway for younger drivers easier to reach the top and be head 2 head with winners.

If they run the next 5 year cycle of Rally2 cars, and look to future with something like Hydrogen ICE Rally2 cars to follow, it would keep rallying at the cutting edge of technology - Toyota seem to be pushing that way, maybe JCB would join in!!

The idea of dropping Super-Rally is an interesting one - it would add an extra level of jeopardy back into the series - perhaps allow all crews to run the Power Stage for the show, but not be in the final classification. It also sounds like Tyres need looking at - Greensmith was very cutting about Pirelli at the weekend!!

The next few years could be interesting for the WRC.

[LukeBrown66]

I have been saying for a long time now the top class needs to go, there does however need to be a top class so a sort of R5 plus would do it for me, but the thing is even an R5 ios what 150k, so a factory R5plus would be 250, it is a lot cheaper than the half mill old WRC cars were going for and Lord knows how much these things now cost.

I would also want less rallies and more endurance element.

You need Monte, Sweden/Norway, You need New Zealand and Australia for me, a couple of asphalt ralies, GB,

I like that they are getting into eastern Europe, rallying is huge there and there is a lot of money flying about and the fans adore it, but it seems hard to police sadly.

As others have said, I will say more, I do not think WRC will ever really work on tv, they have tried everything and the only time it became big was when we had two British drivers up front, it has been on just about every channel and that is because Red Bull give it the big sell, it fails to get viewers and it is dropped.

I do not know all the answer, but I can tell you historic stuff is starting to get a lot of interest, in Ireland the vast array of Mk2, Corolllas, Starlets is getting ever bigger, and on the mainland it is also growing. Maybe as that is where the big money is , plus less rallies you can take it easier.

I watch a lot of stuff from all over Europe, and the busiest places seem to France and Italy, there is no shortage of money there for R5 cars, they manage their events well, and they have been able to avoid all the insurance issues that have affected some of our events. So maybe more WRC events there

[GravelBen]

LukeBrown66 said:

I would also want less rallies and more endurance element.e

Not sure about wanting less rallies, but it might be a necessary compromise to get more entries, more variety and more rallies outside Europe.

I'd like to see more variation in rally format instead of them trying to force everything into the same daily structure of 3-stage loops repeated twice, then a half day on Sunday with most drivers conserving tyres for the power stage. Losing their fixation with basing events around cities and central service parks would help with that.

IIRC Corsica a few years back switched up the format with much longer stages (but less of them) and less repeats, and it was great to see a change.

I think powerstage points are out of balance with overall placing points (and I've been saying that for years) - if the powerstage was worth comparatively less or wasn't the final stage of the rally, there would be less incentive to cruise Sunday morning saving tyres for it and more incentive to push for the next overall placing instead.

To use my local NZRC for comparison - repeated stages are uncommon, they have powerstage bonus points too but the powerstage doesn't have to be the last stage of the rally - its whatever stage the organisers choose as iconic or particularly challenging.

[ArnageWRC]

GravelBen said:

Not sure about wanting less rallies, but it might be a necessary compromise to get more entries, more variety and more rallies outside Europe.

I'd like to see more variation in rally format instead of them trying to force everything into the same daily structure of 3-stage loops repeated twice, then a half day on Sunday with most drivers conserving tyres for the power stage. Losing their fixation with basing events around cities and central service parks would help with that.

IIRC Corsica a few years back switched up the format with much longer stages (but less of them) and less repeats, and it was great to see a change.

I think powerstage points are out of balance with overall placing points (and I've been saying that for years) - if the powerstage was worth comparatively less or wasn't the final stage of the rally, there would be less incentive to cruise Sunday morning saving tyres for it and more incentive to push for the next overall placing instead.

Yes, some good points there.

All series will want to run more events around the world; however, can the WRC really afford this. 2.5 manufacturers says not really. Now that the WRC owns the ERC, the events that don't get in the WRC could move to the ERC, which could/can make that series stronger.

8-10 WRC rounds with Argentina, NZ/ Australia, Mexico and possibly Japan outside Europe. Monte, Acropolis & 1,000 Lakes are always in - the rest can rotate in/out to the ERC.

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

LukeBrown66 said:

I have been saying for a long time now the top class needs to go, there does however need to be a top class so a sort of R5 plus would do it for me, but the thing is even an R5 ios what 150k, so a factory R5plus would be 250, it is a lot cheaper than the half mill old WRC cars were going for and Lord knows how much these things now cost.

I would also want less rallies and more endurance element.

You need Monte, Sweden/Norway, You need New Zealand and Australia for me, a couple of asphalt ralies, GB,

I like that they are getting into eastern Europe, rallying is huge there and there is a lot of money flying about and the fans adore it, but it seems hard to police sadly.

As others have said, I will say more, I do not think WRC will ever really work on tv, they have tried everything and the only time it became big was when we had two British drivers up front, it has been on just about every channel and that is because Red Bull give it the big sell, it fails to get viewers and it is dropped.

I do not know all the answer, but I can tell you historic stuff is starting to get a lot of interest, in Ireland the vast array of Mk2, Corolllas, Starlets is getting ever bigger, and on the mainland it is also growing. Maybe as that is where the big money is , plus less rallies you can take it easier.

I watch a lot of stuff from all over Europe, and the busiest places seem to France and Italy, there is no shortage of money there for R5 cars, they manage their events well, and they have been able to avoid all the insurance issues that have affected some of our events. So maybe more WRC events there

Whist 150 k snoots is not to be sniffed at. It's small beer for a private team like Toksport. They'd only buy the car if they have a driver for it. The driver pays to run it for the year, and potentially at the end of the year, it can be sold. If it was a competitive season with wins etc, they migth get 80% of the cost back, So it's affordable.

And then your true privateer can pick up a 3 year old one for 60k maybe.

WRC2 plus ( in my head that means 6 speed box and 400hp) would be like Gt3 is now in endurance racing. There are a lot of wealthy amateurs funding the racing of those types of cars ( and they're 400k plus) whilst providing rides for the young guns.

Car manufacturers might be tempted to make them if they can sell them, even for a small loss, as parts etc would be a revenue stream. Maybe have 20 manufacturers playing?

30 plus hyper competitive WrC2 cars on a WRC round would be very interesting.....

[epom]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

LukeBrown66 said:

I have been saying for a long time now the top class needs to go, there does however need to be a top class so a sort of R5 plus would do it for me, but the thing is even an R5 ios what 150k, so a factory R5plus would be 250, it is a lot cheaper than the half mill old WRC cars were going for and Lord knows how much these things now cost.

I would also want less rallies and more endurance element.

You need Monte, Sweden/Norway, You need New Zealand and Australia for me, a couple of asphalt ralies, GB,

I like that they are getting into eastern Europe, rallying is huge there and there is a lot of money flying about and the fans adore it, but it seems hard to police sadly.

As others have said, I will say more, I do not think WRC will ever really work on tv, they have tried everything and the only time it became big was when we had two British drivers up front, it has been on just about every channel and that is because Red Bull give it the big sell, it fails to get viewers and it is dropped.

I do not know all the answer, but I can tell you historic stuff is starting to get a lot of interest, in Ireland the vast array of Mk2, Corolllas, Starlets is getting ever bigger, and on the mainland it is also growing. Maybe as that is where the big money is , plus less rallies you can take it easier.

I watch a lot of stuff from all over Europe, and the busiest places seem to France and Italy, there is no shortage of money there for R5 cars, they manage their events well, and they have been able to avoid all the insurance issues that have affected some of our events. So maybe more WRC events there

Whist 150 k snoots is not to be sniffed at. It's small beer for a private team like Toksport. They'd only buy the car if they have a driver for it. The driver pays to run it for the year, and potentially at the end of the year, it can be sold. If it was a competitive season with wins etc, they migth get 80% of the cost back, So it's affordable.

And then your true privateer can pick up a 3 year old one for 60k maybe.

WRC2 plus ( in my head that means 6 speed box and 400hp) would be like Gt3 is now in endurance racing. There are a lot of wealthy amateurs funding the racing of those types of cars ( and they're 400k plus) whilst providing rides for the young guns.

Car manufacturers might be tempted to make them if they can sell them, even for a small loss, as parts etc would be a revenue stream. Maybe have 20 manufacturers playing?

30 plus hyper competitive WrC2 cars on a WRC round would be very interesting.....

Your optimism is admirable.

[AlphaDelta]

Some good ideas here, although the likelihood of them becoming reality feels depressingly low.

FWIW I’d also favour a move towards cars more closely related to something you can buy but with the forced March towards electric in Europe I don’t see how manufacturers align selling electric SUVs to rally motorsport. Win on Sunday sell on Monday doesn’t work in an EV world.

I’ve seen some ideas floated around alternatives fuels, scrapping the hybrid and just going with it as a sort of historic event but then no link to the road cars.

Not sure what the answer is tbh, but as rapid as the current and prior gen WRC cars are I think it would be more entertaining if the class was scrapped and more manufacturers were involved at a Rally 2.

[GravelBen]

AlphaDelta said:

Some good ideas here, although the likelihood of them becoming reality feels depressingly low.

FWIW I’d also favour a move towards cars more closely related to something you can buy but with the forced March towards electric in Europe I don’t see how manufacturers align selling electric SUVs to rally motorsport. Win on Sunday sell on Monday doesn’t work in an EV world.

I’ve seen some ideas floated around alternatives fuels, scrapping the hybrid and just going with it as a sort of historic event but then no link to the road cars.

Not sure what the answer is tbh, but as rapid as the current and prior gen WRC cars are I think it would be more entertaining if the class was scrapped and more manufacturers were involved at a Rally 2.

It's a dilemma isn't it! I miss the days of production based rally cars in WRC, but agree that with the political push towards electric cars its hard to see that working now.

There are people like Paddon developing electric rally cars to get ahead of the curve and already using them for sprint/hillclimb events, very quick but battery technology doesn't seem to be there yet to last a full rally unless they use modular batteries and swap them out between stages. And the sound doesn't inspire the emotional response of a ICE car.

Conflicting factors with the idea of making WRC2 the top series, I can fully understand WRC wanting the top class to be a clear step above national/regional and feeder categories for speed and drama etc but of course that impacts costs and limits entry numbers.

I quite like the idea of an upgrade kit for a top class to be based on WRC2 but with more power, some different aero to visually distinguish the classes but not too much aero or drivetrain complexity in order to keep cost under control.

[LukeBrown66]

The thing is the sell on Monday never even worked in the glory WRC days.

Look at a few examples.

In the UK the only Hyundai Accent you could buy was a 1.6! They do it much better now.

Peugeot 206, they never sold anything remotely quick in that range for years. And teh 206 never took off like the 205 did.

Skoda the Fabia fasty was a diesel, great though it is, nothing like the WRC car.

Seat were fairly close i terms of link up with marketing and cars with the Cupra range and then of course Subaru and Mitsy basically sold the car that was rallied.

Even Ford initially with the Focus only had the St170.

And there was not really a mega hot Xsara with Citroen and the Peugeot 307CC really a boulevard cruiser as a hot turbo 4wd car it should never have been rallied!

So the link between rallying and selling is never that obvious, marketing live in an idiotic, dumb world and a bubble. As we can all see form the way they advertise stuff.

[Drumroll]

LukeBrown66 said:

The thing is the sell on Monday never even worked in the glory WRC days.

Look at a few examples.

In the UK the only Hyundai Accent you could buy was a 1.6! They do it much better now.

Peugeot 206, they never sold anything remotely quick in that range for years. And teh 206 never took off like the 205 did.

Skoda the Fabia fasty was a diesel, great though it is, nothing like the WRC car.

Seat were fairly close i terms of link up with marketing and cars with the Cupra range and then of course Subaru and Mitsy basically sold the car that was rallied.

Even Ford initially with the Focus only had the St170.

And there was not really a mega hot Xsara with Citroen and the Peugeot 307CC really a boulevard cruiser as a hot turbo 4wd car it should never have been rallied!

So the link between rallying and selling is never that obvious, marketing live in an idiotic, dumb world and a bubble. As we can all see form the way they advertise stuff.

I think you are reading to much into "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" it was a generalisation for the model of car. It gave the "rep mobile" owners a chance to say my Sierra (insert any other make or model of car you like) has won the British Rally championship or the latest round of the BTCC etc. That was also how the adverts were as well, showing the competition version of the car.

Very few car advertiser's link their competition car directly into their advertisements any more. Maybe we have got wise to that one or maybe car "buyers*" just don't care.

• the way people purchase cars has changed, many people lease them.

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

Drumroll said:

I think you are reading to much into "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" it was a generalisation for the model of car. It gave the "rep mobile" owners a chance to say my Sierra (insert any other make or model of car you like) has won the British Rally championship or the latest round of the BTCC etc. That was also how the adverts were as well, showing the competition version of the car.

Very few car advertiser's link their competition car directly into their advertisements any more. Maybe we have got wise to that one or maybe car "buyers*" just don't care.

• the way people purchase cars has changed, many people lease them.

Audi Quattro
Sierra Cosworth
Nissan Pulsar GTir
Subaru Impreza or Legacy
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
Lancia Delta Integrale


direct products to be bought by the public from the win on Sunday sell on Monday mantra.

[Drumroll]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

Drumroll said:

I think you are reading to much into "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" it was a generalisation for the model of car. It gave the "rep mobile" owners a chance to say my Sierra (insert any other make or model of car you like) has won the British Rally championship or the latest round of the BTCC etc. That was also how the adverts were as well, showing the competition version of the car.

Very few car advertiser's link their competition car directly into their advertisements any more. Maybe we have got wise to that one or maybe car "buyers*" just don't care.

• the way people purchase cars has changed, many people lease them.

Audi Quattro
Sierra Cosworth
Nissan Pulsar GTir
Subaru Impreza or Legacy
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
Lancia Delta Integrale


direct products to be bought by the public from the win on Sunday sell on Monday mantra.

Not denying that, but if you remember the adverts, they used the 'sporty" models to sell the whole range.

[thepawbroon]

Drumroll said:

Not denying that, but if you remember the adverts, they used the 'sporty" models to sell the whole range.

Funny coincidence - I just spotted this:

https://fb.watch/kAusaNqYIm/

Can you imagine something similar today?