2023 rallying thread (WRC, ERC, national and historics)
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
It is pointless comparing ANY kind of sports popularity in the 70's and 80;s to know sadly,.
Just about every sport had a bigger attendance back then, stock cars, speedway, athletics, lower league football, rugby, crickets, there are not many sports enjoying the same levels of fan attendance now as then.
Now you have to fight with gaming, festivals, tv and mountains of other stuff having billions a year pumped in to it to make it seem unmissable when in fact most of it is utterly futile rubbish!!
It is not often I agree with Luke, but I do on this. Just about every sport had a bigger attendance back then, stock cars, speedway, athletics, lower league football, rugby, crickets, there are not many sports enjoying the same levels of fan attendance now as then.
Now you have to fight with gaming, festivals, tv and mountains of other stuff having billions a year pumped in to it to make it seem unmissable when in fact most of it is utterly futile rubbish!!
I am not really interested in platitudes, this is a subject that needs debate at a much higher level than this.
Sadly the rallying world is very happy with itself it seems, people are willing to pay a fair bit of money to watch it online, yet in terms of its appeal to the masses it is at about its worst level ever, there is not even a crowd pulling event like a TT, Le Mans, N24 to pull people in for a weekend, it just exists.
Thankfully, live it is still popular, and at national level at least abroad it seems to be very strong, there will be 4 or 5 large rallies in France nearly every weekend, which is staggering really. Italy seems to be strong as does Eastern Europe, sadly in the UK it is lacking still, compared to where it was.
Sadly the rallying world is very happy with itself it seems, people are willing to pay a fair bit of money to watch it online, yet in terms of its appeal to the masses it is at about its worst level ever, there is not even a crowd pulling event like a TT, Le Mans, N24 to pull people in for a weekend, it just exists.
Thankfully, live it is still popular, and at national level at least abroad it seems to be very strong, there will be 4 or 5 large rallies in France nearly every weekend, which is staggering really. Italy seems to be strong as does Eastern Europe, sadly in the UK it is lacking still, compared to where it was.
LukeBrown66 said:
there is not even a crowd pulling event like a TT, Le Mans, N24 to pull people in for a weekend, it just exists.
I'll refrain from praising you but this is a really good point. It's clear there won't be wholesale changes to the weekend format, but it would be a nice idea if the promoter was to develop one or two events as "headline" ones for the calendar where maybe they would relax the format and make it more of classic style endurance rally. Monte or Kenya would probably be the obvious choices in terms of something special but the latter would be difficult for international fans.
Clearly such a plan would require a lot of co-ordination and buy in between the series and the event organiser, but it would be something great to build the WRC brand around.
I think most people Monte, it is the year start, and testing and pre-rally stage are always popular, but it just dies off.
I do not know the answer really, I suppose massive fans will pay for the live stuff, but that is a diminishing economy but I do not blame them, it has awful figures on tv as if it was decent it would not have been passed around like a hot potato for decades since McRae and Burns.
You can build WEC around Le Mans as it is soooo huge and you can build road racing around the TT the same, but there are very few events like this, some will say Indy 500 but that passes me by to be honest.
I think less events and a very wel thought out system for the top class of cars.
I want to see a guy a Gryazin, Lindholm or the like getting close to a top result as say Schwarz did in an Audi 200, or Gronholm did in a Celica, or Colin in the Sierra in the RAC, they cannot do that as they are not in equal equipment at all. So it has been made into a multi layered series, when it only needs perhaps 3 layers it has about 6!
I do not know the answer really, I suppose massive fans will pay for the live stuff, but that is a diminishing economy but I do not blame them, it has awful figures on tv as if it was decent it would not have been passed around like a hot potato for decades since McRae and Burns.
You can build WEC around Le Mans as it is soooo huge and you can build road racing around the TT the same, but there are very few events like this, some will say Indy 500 but that passes me by to be honest.
I think less events and a very wel thought out system for the top class of cars.
I want to see a guy a Gryazin, Lindholm or the like getting close to a top result as say Schwarz did in an Audi 200, or Gronholm did in a Celica, or Colin in the Sierra in the RAC, they cannot do that as they are not in equal equipment at all. So it has been made into a multi layered series, when it only needs perhaps 3 layers it has about 6!
thepawbroon said:
I think we need to admit this - watching rallying on Live TV is just not very good.
I disagree, I enjoy watching it live on WRC+ as long as there is some action happening. Obviously if a rally is boring (like dry tarmac with steady margins and no incidents) then live coverage won't help.Sure there is still room for improvement, but they have made some good progress in WRC+ coverage - its more reliable, and they now often show end of stage interviews etc in a small corner window instead of cutting away from stage coverage completely like they used to for a boring interview or irrelevant pre-recorded 'personal interest' story clip which nobody cares about.
Time zones probably make a difference, being around 12hrs ahead of Europe (give or take with daylight savings etc) means a WRC morning loop in Europe is normally an evening here, so the timing is good to sit down and watch it live. Then I can catch up with an afternoon loop or highlights the following day if it looks interesting.
LukeBrown66 said:
I want to see a guy a Gryazin, Lindholm or the like getting close to a top result as say Schwarz did in an Audi 200, or Gronholm did in a Celica, or Colin in the Sierra in the RAC, they cannot do that as they are not in equal equipment at all. So it has been made into a multi layered series, when it only needs perhaps 3 layers it has about 6!
I agree, though to be fair Sardegna this past weekend ended with 6 WRC2 cars in the top 10 as so many of the WRC crews had incidents or mechanical issues... mind you, that's also a statement of how small the WRC entry list is these days!I would like the top class being accessible enough that top privateers can compete with a chance of a podium, of course the top teams with the biggest budgets would probably still be dominant overall but local drivers could throw a cat among the pigeons and make the championship less predictable by taking points away from the regulars.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 6th June 01:30
GravelBen said:
thepawbroon said:
I think we need to admit this - watching rallying on Live TV is just not very good.
I disagree, I enjoy watching it live on WRC+ as long as there is some action happening. Obviously if a rally is boring (like dry tarmac with steady margins and no incidents) then live coverage won't help.Sure there is still room for improvement, but they have made some good progress in WRC+ coverage - its more reliable, and they now often show end of stage interviews etc in a small corner window instead of cutting away from stage coverage completely like they used to for a boring interview or irrelevant pre-recorded 'personal interest' story clip which nobody cares about.
Time zones probably make a difference, being around 12hrs ahead of Europe (give or take with daylight savings etc) means a WRC morning loop in Europe is normally an evening here, so the timing is good to sit down and watch it live. Then I can catch up with an afternoon loop or highlights the following day if it looks interesting.
I think he's certainly right in many regards, locking it behind a paywall is the most significant obstacle, charging for access to fan zones at live rallys is another issue, and of course the rules pandering to the manufacturers rather than whats in the interest of the sport is another issue.
The current Rally1 cars are way too fragile, the way some of them exploded through the water crossings this weekend was laughable. To be honest if they ran Rally2 cars and scrapped Rally1 there'd probably be a way more competitive field. Currently if it wasn't for the restart rules the field on Sunday would be 5 cars or less. How can you build World Championship around that?
Pirelli need to be held to account too, only Seb and Greensmith have outed them publicly for their dire performance. Last year almost every round was impacted significantly by punctures. Having 2 available brands like F1 used to be would certainly encourage them to up their game!
Personally I love WRC, however the issues are obvious to even a super fan like me.
Captain Obvious said:
...locking it behind a paywall is the most significant obstacle, charging for access to fan zones at live rallys is another issue, and of course the rules pandering to the manufacturers rather than whats in the interest of the sport is another issue...
Can you give any examples of other motorsport where that isn't the case though? There isn't much international-level motorsport that you can watch for free (on tv or in person), at least with WRC you can watch practically endless fan videos on youtube which often show the action better than the official coverage!Rules pander to manufacturers anywhere the level is high enough to have manufacturer involvement, the part that gets me is when manufacturers push for rules which result in huge costs, and then complain about the costs they caused themselves.
I agree its not what it could be (or perhaps used to be), and in many ways WRC which in theory should be the pinnacle of the sport offers the worst of rallying instead of the best. But to me its generally still better than any other motorsport I can think of...
Captain Obvious said:
To be honest if they ran Rally2 cars and scrapped Rally1 there'd probably be a way more competitive field.
No probably about it, that's a definite - I've been watching ERC a bit this year and the number of competitive cars is next level.The problem is that if WRC went to Rally2 cars as well, there would be no step up in car performance from local to national to regional to world championship level - just more of the same.
Rally2 with an add-on kit (wider restrictor for more power, basic wing/bodywork changes to look more aggressive without too much aero expense) for a more cost-effective top WRC class would be a pretty good option, then any privateer with a rally2 car could buy the kit to compete.
The manufacturers might not want that, because the factory teams would have less guarantee of winning...
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 6th June 07:08
GravelBen said:
Captain Obvious said:
To be honest if they ran Rally2 cars and scrapped Rally1 there'd probably be a way more competitive field.
No probably about it, that's a definite - I've been watching ERC a bit this year and the number of competitive cars is next level.The problem is that if WRC went to Rally2 cars as well, there would be no step up in car performance from local to national to regional to world championship level - just more of the same.
Rally2 with an add-on kit (wider restrictor for more power, basic wing/bodywork changes to look more aggressive without too much aero expense) for a more cost-effective top WRC class would be a pretty good option, then any privateer with a rally2 car could buy the kit to compete.
The manufacturers might not want that, because the factory teams would have less guarantee of winning...
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 6th June 07:08
Privateers can’t run these cars anymore without a massive budget, and they way they break down !!
I’m thinking back to days when an Irish Tarmac round not even a WRC round would have a top 10 of all WRC cars. Something has gone wrong, and it’s not the lack of interest.
epom said:
Agree with most of what you’ve said, but just to play devils advocate, the difference in performance should really be about the driver.
From a purely competition / sporting perspective I agree. But I can understand the WRC promoter / manufacturer point of view too where they don't only care about competition, they place a lot of value on the spectacle as well and sometimes there is a conflict or compromise between those values.
I guess you could argue that the spectacle attracts new viewers and the competition keeps people interested longer term.
GravelBen said:
Rally2 with an add-on kit (wider restrictor for more power, basic wing/bodywork changes to look more aggressive without too much aero expense) for a more cost-effective top WRC class would be a pretty good option, then any privateer with a rally2 car could buy the kit to compete.
As I mentioned earlier this was effectively the idea for S2000/WRC about a decade ago, but it never really caught on. Perhaps there was something in how it was applied that made it fail, but its not obvious that such a rule set is going to have the desired effect.egomeister said:
GravelBen said:
Rally2 with an add-on kit (wider restrictor for more power, basic wing/bodywork changes to look more aggressive without too much aero expense) for a more cost-effective top WRC class would be a pretty good option, then any privateer with a rally2 car could buy the kit to compete.
As I mentioned earlier this was effectively the idea for S2000/WRC about a decade ago, but it never really caught on. Perhaps there was something in how it was applied that made it fail, but its not obvious that such a rule set is going to have the desired effect.Anyone have an idea how much more power a rally2 engine could make with a bigger restrictor etc without compromising reliability too much?
GravelBen said:
Anyone have an idea how much more power a rally2 engine could make with a bigger restrictor etc without compromising reliability too much?
I think this is where the cracks start forming in the idea. If you start adding in that variable, you inevitably start to choose which engine config you want to be best optimised. As a manufacturer derives the most marketing benefit from the top class, you end up with a hobbled top spec engine rather than a rally2 with more air going to it which in turn ups the costs for rally2 etc etcegomeister said:
It's clear there won't be wholesale changes to the weekend format, but it would be a nice idea if the promoter was to develop one or two events as "headline" ones for the calendar where maybe they would relax the format and make it more of classic style endurance rally. Monte or Kenya would probably be the obvious choices in terms of something special but the latter would be difficult for international fans.
Clearly such a plan would require a lot of co-ordination and buy in between the series and the event organiser, but it would be something great to build the WRC brand around.
Yes, I agree. There was a time when the WRC had a few 'crowd pulling'/headline events....and decided to make them fit a generic format. The sport is its own worst enemy, it really is.Clearly such a plan would require a lot of co-ordination and buy in between the series and the event organiser, but it would be something great to build the WRC brand around.
The modern Monte is a pale shadow of the former event, as is the Safari - and as was RallyGB compared to the RAC Rally.
I liken it to making Le Mans a 6 Hour race on the Bugatti circuit....and telling us it's still the same. You just wouldn't do it.......
Captain Obvious said:
Ogier was funny with his comments after the rally to Dirtfish, he said the sport is essentially dead and meaningless now, which is why he would rather spend time with his family than persue a full season.
I think he's certainly right in many regards, locking it behind a paywall is the most significant obstacle, charging for access to fan zones at live rallys is another issue, and of course the rules pandering to the manufacturers rather than whats in the interest of the sport is another issue.
Personally I love WRC, however the issues are obvious to even a super fan like me.
Dirtfish did a round up of Sardinia, and showed the Ogier interview - and then completely glossed over it.....I think he's certainly right in many regards, locking it behind a paywall is the most significant obstacle, charging for access to fan zones at live rallys is another issue, and of course the rules pandering to the manufacturers rather than whats in the interest of the sport is another issue.
Personally I love WRC, however the issues are obvious to even a super fan like me.
Having all of the live coverage behind a paywall is killing it; no sponsors or new manufacturers are signing up for that. 1 or 2 free to air stages a day is what they should look at....but won't.
GravelBen said:
Can you give any examples of other motorsport where that isn't the case though? There isn't much international-level motorsport that you can watch for free (on tv or in person), at least with WRC you can watch practically endless fan videos on youtube which often show the action better than the official coverage!
IMSA Weathertech series, VLN, Nurburgring 24, Fanatec World series, and most SRO GT series all on either the series website or You Tube.....thepawbroon said:
...I think we need to admit this - watching rallying on Live TV is just not very good. It needs a Barry Hinchcliffe of today to bring the stories to life via a magazine-type programme, or something.
Yes, make it into a story.Something that stitches together the event, the battles, the highlights - and the various classes.
LukeBrown66 said:
It is pointless comparing ANY kind of sports popularity in the 70's and 80;s to know sadly,.
Just about every sport had a bigger attendance back then, stock cars, speedway, athletics, lower league football, rugby, crickets, there are not many sports enjoying the same levels of fan attendance now as then.
Now you have to fight with gaming, festivals, tv and mountains of other stuff having billions a year pumped in to it to make it seem unmissable when in fact most of it is utterly futile rubbish!!
Live TV coverage and the enormous availability of footage on social media has almost completely wiped out the need to actually go and see the action up close. Attendance has dropped across the board except at the WRC events and classic festivals.Just about every sport had a bigger attendance back then, stock cars, speedway, athletics, lower league football, rugby, crickets, there are not many sports enjoying the same levels of fan attendance now as then.
Now you have to fight with gaming, festivals, tv and mountains of other stuff having billions a year pumped in to it to make it seem unmissable when in fact most of it is utterly futile rubbish!!
That's not just hitting event revenues from a spectator aspect, but also the marshals, both numbers and demographics - with all the other things going on, the younger folks can meet up locally at some meet and the socials cover the real events.
I think the comments about moving to a Rally2 class across the board would actually be good for the sport - seeing privateers going head to head with the factory teams would be a good thing. Imagine a local hero being able to fight on a level playing field with a works driver. That would shake up the factory drivers and focus on the skill of the driver, not the team budget.
The massive time differences across the top 10 in Italy were barely mentioned. Third place was two minutes down and fourth was over five minutes down - if that was Le Mans or a GP it would be measured in laps and positively tedious in a live situation.
There are numerous great issues raised. the paywall thing is just greed, pure and simple. They do not make enough revenue from advertising and tv deals to make a profit, so because F1, boxing, cricket do it, why not charge people to watch WRC sort of live and sometimes fully live, it is pure greed, but the downside is you drop the casual away who might want to see some live action now and then on telly. Tat is ALL on Red Bull media, noone else.
As for live spectating, it has always been popular, there are lots of reasons why it is tough in the UK, and in some ways been ruined in the UK, but the only issue I have with that really is that it is really only here at certain sorts of venues, elsewhere in the world and Europe the same sport has been less affected by the problems we had in the UK largely linked to insurance, the bain of all our lives.
As for cars it was a mistake to basically exclude pretty much privateers from using works cars, it was going that way anyway at the end of 1600 WRC, only really a few guys did it, compared to when it started, but that is not great.
However R5 is made for this, it is crazy how dumb WRC are, it is plainly obvious that if you allowed R5 a better chance entries would go up, maybe they do not want that?
As for making them faster all along I have said R5 and R5plus, maybe a hybrid-ised R5, but not set, allow manufacturers to come up with THEIR way, like they can somewhat in WEC, this obsession with level playing fields is garbage and stifles creativity.
As for live spectating, it has always been popular, there are lots of reasons why it is tough in the UK, and in some ways been ruined in the UK, but the only issue I have with that really is that it is really only here at certain sorts of venues, elsewhere in the world and Europe the same sport has been less affected by the problems we had in the UK largely linked to insurance, the bain of all our lives.
As for cars it was a mistake to basically exclude pretty much privateers from using works cars, it was going that way anyway at the end of 1600 WRC, only really a few guys did it, compared to when it started, but that is not great.
However R5 is made for this, it is crazy how dumb WRC are, it is plainly obvious that if you allowed R5 a better chance entries would go up, maybe they do not want that?
As for making them faster all along I have said R5 and R5plus, maybe a hybrid-ised R5, but not set, allow manufacturers to come up with THEIR way, like they can somewhat in WEC, this obsession with level playing fields is garbage and stifles creativity.
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