Roger Albert Clark Rally 2023
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
Being brutally honest it is your choice to rally that car, among cars that are considerably more expensive, it's like complaining about wages in a job when you knew they were low before you started. If you are not bothered about results and simply want to rally, improve, why worry. If you want better results sounds like you might need to get your wallet out as everyone else does!
Very close to the mark there! It seems in UK club rallying, many folk want a class structure that limits the competition to a small number of crews with exactly the same budget. Look at the Jim Clark, goodness knows how many classes.
The need to "win" dominates peoples' thoughts, is it because winning will feed their ego? Same with spending all your (or your company's) money on a Rally2 Fiesta..... how much is "having fun" and how much is "look at me, aren't I successful?" ?
Seems I have my cynical head on today
LukeBrown66 said:
It is a problem when you can now easily spend 150 grand on a Mk2, and quite a lot of people (and they all seem to be from the same mould) do. What happens to the old stuff. The stuff you saw routinely at clubbies in the 80's and 90's getting top 20 results, winning classes etc.
It has always been this way, a friend used a Mk2 for a bit and got fed up trying to beat 16v cars in the big class, so bored it out to 2.1 and was top three in his class every rally getting roughly the same results
Being brutally honest it is your choice to rally that car, among cars that are considerably more expensive, it's like complaining about wages in a job when you knew they were low before you started. If you are not bothered about results and simply want to rally, improve, why worry. If you want better results sounds like you might need to get your wallet out as everyone else does!
Oh I knew exactly what I was getting in to when I bought the car (for about £9k and I have spent about the same on it again). It’s not really about being worried about whether I win or not (I fully understand my place in the pecking order) but it is about trying to:It has always been this way, a friend used a Mk2 for a bit and got fed up trying to beat 16v cars in the big class, so bored it out to 2.1 and was top three in his class every rally getting roughly the same results
Being brutally honest it is your choice to rally that car, among cars that are considerably more expensive, it's like complaining about wages in a job when you knew they were low before you started. If you are not bothered about results and simply want to rally, improve, why worry. If you want better results sounds like you might need to get your wallet out as everyone else does!
- encourage people back in to competing who did so years ago in similar cars
- encourage the growth of the sport by offering cost effective classes where cars are if a similar technical generation (“classic” racing as opposed to ‘historic” racing has been THE massive growth area of club racing in the uk over the last 20 plus years, so why wouldn’t it be in rallying?)
- modernise the sport by making it clear that there are separations between historic/ classic/ modern cars etc
Clearly my views (which are based on my experiences with the very successful CSCC) have not gained massive traction yet, and may never do, but there are one over 450 members of the Classic Rally Car Register (CRCR) fb group who seem to agree and one regional championship that has a taken up the idea. In many other social media places, there is tension between people arguing that the sport needs to modernise and others who want the status quo, but it’s difficult to modernise or keep the status quo without offering options for both sides of the argument.
I am at least trying to do that. Trouble is that too many people are happy to say, “ I am alright Jack” and not look at the bigger picture of the sports future. People can’t keep rallying Escorts for ever, and indeed it is noticeable on the circuit rallies, for eg, that the number of modern Escorts is now declining as a proportion of the overall entry, as the front runners switch to R5/R2 WRC cars.
I certainly can’t afford a £150k Escort, or even a £50k one, (nor an R5) but I can afford to do what I do and it was brilliant fun at the recent Dukeries rally to have an unofficial “ club classic” battle with a couple of other similar spec cars. Much better than just being there to make up the numbers in a glorified track day (as some infamous person here would argue). And a damn site more fun than being a spectator and saying, “I would really like to have a go at that but I am told I need a £150k Escort to do it!”
The sport needs to encourage far more participants, or else it will die; I don’t see anything wrong with trying to encourage people to participate at a relatively affordable and technically sensible level.
Of course, there are other cost effective initiatives like the Mini series or MX5s but are they not meant to succeed either, because they don’t fit the traditional class structure? I am just trying to suggest one possible alternative based on my experience of the success of classic club racing.
Rallies need entrants - 2 seasons ago you had to be very quick on the computer to get an entry to one of the circuit rallies, now they are invariably not full. If there was more encouragement for cost effective classes, maybe the entries would be full again?
thepawbroon said:
LukeBrown66 said:
Being brutally honest it is your choice to rally that car, among cars that are considerably more expensive, it's like complaining about wages in a job when you knew they were low before you started. If you are not bothered about results and simply want to rally, improve, why worry. If you want better results sounds like you might need to get your wallet out as everyone else does!
Very close to the mark there! It seems in UK club rallying, many folk want a class structure that limits the competition to a small number of crews with exactly the same budget. Look at the Jim Clark, goodness knows how many classes.
The need to "win" dominates peoples' thoughts, is it because winning will feed their ego? Same with spending all your (or your company's) money on a Rally2 Fiesta..... how much is "having fun" and how much is "look at me, aren't I successful?" ?
Seems I have my cynical head on today
Human beings are competitive people, and if you don’t want to compete but just want to drive round, then maybe you just do track days (which is fine). However, if you do want to compete then it is far better to be within a group of roughly similar technology cars.
I clearly look at things from a different perspective but I think it is illogical to divide classes up purely on an arbitrary capacity split devised in the in the 1960s when technology has moved on. I don’t see how it can be logical to have a car with a 1960s 1700 Crossflow or 2 litre Pinto with h-pattern gearboxes, in the same class as a car with a modern alloy 2 litre Duratec/ Honda/ YB/ Millington engine.
If there is another way of doing it within a similar number of classes to “normal”, then fire away.
The other issue is that the only other avenue you have is historic rallying, and I dont know if there is much of that on asphalt. Circuit racing, rallycross is totally obsessed with having classes for everything, which works at times but has always been confusing for fans as they often all look very similar, and let's face it a lot of it is about some bloke who has been in something for years and is an important member of the club and wants to stay in his car, which is fine by the way.
if it were me I would look at doing some more proper club level events, singe venues, they are a bit more challenging than the circuit rallies and I would think a well driven car even an old one stands a much better chance of doing well and probably would not go wrong as often. But I think trying to get more classes into basically tarmac sprint rallies is not the best idea, but if there are takers they will have it as it will increase entries and make the clamour more, meaning their entry fees could rise.
if it were me I would look at doing some more proper club level events, singe venues, they are a bit more challenging than the circuit rallies and I would think a well driven car even an old one stands a much better chance of doing well and probably would not go wrong as often. But I think trying to get more classes into basically tarmac sprint rallies is not the best idea, but if there are takers they will have it as it will increase entries and make the clamour more, meaning their entry fees could rise.
LukeBrown66 said:
The other issue is that the only other avenue you have is historic rallying, and I dont know if there is much of that on asphalt. Circuit racing, rallycross is totally obsessed with having classes for everything, which works at times but has always been confusing for fans as they often all look very similar, and let's face it a lot of it is about some bloke who has been in something for years and is an important member of the club and wants to stay in his car, which is fine by the way.
if it were me I would look at doing some more proper club level events, singe venues, they are a bit more challenging than the circuit rallies and I would think a well driven car even an old one stands a much better chance of doing well and probably would not go wrong as often. But I think trying to get more classes into basically tarmac sprint rallies is not the best idea, but if there are takers they will have it as it will increase entries and make the clamour more, meaning their entry fees could rise.
We have a “club classic” class within the AWMCC Heart of England Championship. This is its second season; i sponsor it. It is mostly traditional S/V events (the AGBO, Lookout Stages, Epynt, Harlech, Abingdon etc); there is only one circuit rally on the calendar - Donington Park), it is not about “tarmac sprint rallies”, as you put it.if it were me I would look at doing some more proper club level events, singe venues, they are a bit more challenging than the circuit rallies and I would think a well driven car even an old one stands a much better chance of doing well and probably would not go wrong as often. But I think trying to get more classes into basically tarmac sprint rallies is not the best idea, but if there are takers they will have it as it will increase entries and make the clamour more, meaning their entry fees could rise.
Thanks for your advice, luke, perhaps you should do your BARS test and take part? Theres a 1600 Pug 205 for sale at the moment for £9k which would be ideal for the “club classic class” and not that expensive to run really, and would, I am sure, be competitive in the class.
Edited by andy97 on Friday 7th April 19:40
Sadly, I have no way of competing, I get car sick from driving too fast so even if I could compete I could only do short events like sprints or hills.
Pus I have nowhere to keep a car and trailer. I am quite happy to be potentially doing something in the next few years, was made redundant unexpectedly recently which scuppered location plans etc, very annoying.
9 grand is cheap but that would probably be a well ratty 205 that has probably done more rallies than years i have been alive, that level of secondhand is fraught unless you are intending to take a car apart and make sure what you have bought.
My mate and I have laughably always talked about dong the RAC in a Marina Coupe however!
Pus I have nowhere to keep a car and trailer. I am quite happy to be potentially doing something in the next few years, was made redundant unexpectedly recently which scuppered location plans etc, very annoying.
9 grand is cheap but that would probably be a well ratty 205 that has probably done more rallies than years i have been alive, that level of secondhand is fraught unless you are intending to take a car apart and make sure what you have bought.
My mate and I have laughably always talked about dong the RAC in a Marina Coupe however!
LukeBrown66 said:
9 grand is cheap but that would probably be a well ratty 205 that has probably done more rallies than years i have been alive, that level of secondhand is fraught unless you are intending to take a car apart and make sure what you have bought.
I have seen the photos and it looks reasonably smart. Definitely something worth buying in my view.I bought my Escort for £9k and there is no denying it was cosmetically challenged but was well built - there are decent cars out there for not stupid money, and I reckon this is one of them.
andy97 said:
I understand the cynicism, but it really is not about everyone coming home with a trophy or saying “look at me”, it’s about having competition between roughly equivalent groups of competitors in roughly equivalent technical spec/ age cars.
Human beings are competitive people, and if you don’t want to compete but just want to drive round, then maybe you just do track days (which is fine). However, if you do want to compete then it is far better to be within a group of roughly similar technology cars.
I clearly look at things from a different perspective but I think it is illogical to divide classes up purely on an arbitrary capacity split devised in the in the 1960s when technology has moved on. I don’t see how it can be logical to have a car with a 1960s 1700 Crossflow or 2 litre Pinto with h-pattern gearboxes, in the same class as a car with a modern alloy 2 litre Duratec/ Honda/ YB/ Millington engine.
If there is another way of doing it within a similar number of classes to “normal”, then fire away.
Hi Andy,Human beings are competitive people, and if you don’t want to compete but just want to drive round, then maybe you just do track days (which is fine). However, if you do want to compete then it is far better to be within a group of roughly similar technology cars.
I clearly look at things from a different perspective but I think it is illogical to divide classes up purely on an arbitrary capacity split devised in the in the 1960s when technology has moved on. I don’t see how it can be logical to have a car with a 1960s 1700 Crossflow or 2 litre Pinto with h-pattern gearboxes, in the same class as a car with a modern alloy 2 litre Duratec/ Honda/ YB/ Millington engine.
If there is another way of doing it within a similar number of classes to “normal”, then fire away.
I've seen what you've been doing and this wasn't a dig at you and the Club Classic side of things. What you're doing is great, I would describe it as building a good community of like-minded enthusiasts. Whether you and the other Club Classic competitors see value in being classified together on event results or not, well that's up to you.
In general though, and I'm looking at this from both a (retired) competitor and organiser point of view, I feel that the trend is to have more and more classes, making the event more granular and having more and more people go home with a prize. There is a cost to that, in terms of cost and manpower to manage the results. Ok, it's fairly marginal in the grand scheme of things but it is valid.
My worry is that - what happens if people aren't winning? Are they still enjoying the rally effort enough to come back and just drive for the fun of it?
Look at the Mull Rally - 150 entries every year and vastly oversubscribed. And it has 6 classes (1 Merged historic, 4 on capacity, 1 for 4WD). The selling point for Mull is fun, challenge, endurance. These apply whether you're in the latest Rally2 Fiesta or a classic Mini that gets cleaned and wheeled out for Mull alone each year. A finishers award is an achievement itself.
I've tried track days and, quite frankly, they are dull compared to rallying.
Even if I was just aiming to improve myself over time, or eradicate mistakes, or beat the guy that just beat me last time, or just having fun with the challenge of taking each corner as fast as possible, or being part of a team wtih codriver and mechanics, It was miles, miles better than any track day.
thepawbroon said:
Hi Andy,
I've seen what you've been doing and this wasn't a dig at you and the Club Classic side of things. What you're doing is great, I would describe it as building a good community of like-minded enthusiasts. Whether you and the other Club Classic competitors see value in being classified together on event results or not, well that's up to you.
In general though, and I'm looking at this from both a (retired) competitor and organiser point of view, I feel that the trend is to have more and more classes, making the event more granular and having more and more people go home with a prize. There is a cost to that, in terms of cost and manpower to manage the results. Ok, it's fairly marginal in the grand scheme of things but it is valid.
My worry is that - what happens if people aren't winning? Are they still enjoying the rally effort enough to come back and just drive for the fun of it?
Look at the Mull Rally - 150 entries every year and vastly oversubscribed. And it has 6 classes (1 Merged historic, 4 on capacity, 1 for 4WD). The selling point for Mull is fun, challenge, endurance. These apply whether you're in the latest Rally2 Fiesta or a classic Mini that gets cleaned and wheeled out for Mull alone each year. A finishers award is an achievement itself.
I've tried track days and, quite frankly, they are dull compared to rallying.
Even if I was just aiming to improve myself over time, or eradicate mistakes, or beat the guy that just beat me last time, or just having fun with the challenge of taking each corner as fast as possible, or being part of a team wtih codriver and mechanics, It was miles, miles better than any track day.
I think what this shows is that good events will still get good entries.I've seen what you've been doing and this wasn't a dig at you and the Club Classic side of things. What you're doing is great, I would describe it as building a good community of like-minded enthusiasts. Whether you and the other Club Classic competitors see value in being classified together on event results or not, well that's up to you.
In general though, and I'm looking at this from both a (retired) competitor and organiser point of view, I feel that the trend is to have more and more classes, making the event more granular and having more and more people go home with a prize. There is a cost to that, in terms of cost and manpower to manage the results. Ok, it's fairly marginal in the grand scheme of things but it is valid.
My worry is that - what happens if people aren't winning? Are they still enjoying the rally effort enough to come back and just drive for the fun of it?
Look at the Mull Rally - 150 entries every year and vastly oversubscribed. And it has 6 classes (1 Merged historic, 4 on capacity, 1 for 4WD). The selling point for Mull is fun, challenge, endurance. These apply whether you're in the latest Rally2 Fiesta or a classic Mini that gets cleaned and wheeled out for Mull alone each year. A finishers award is an achievement itself.
I've tried track days and, quite frankly, they are dull compared to rallying.
Even if I was just aiming to improve myself over time, or eradicate mistakes, or beat the guy that just beat me last time, or just having fun with the challenge of taking each corner as fast as possible, or being part of a team wtih codriver and mechanics, It was miles, miles better than any track day.
As for the costs of awards/ prizes, personally I wouldn’t bother. There’s the kudos of a “class podium” but no need for a plastic cup in my view.
And I agree about track days, very dull. And that’s my point about being in the same class as cars that are in a different technological class, there is no real competition so you end up being on a “timed track day”. Now, of course, driving quickly along a stage is still demanding (far more demanding than the track day) and there is still some form of “competition”,from trying to get a finish, from trying to beat seeding, from trying to be quicker than the well driven 1 litre Micra in front of you (even though in reality you are in different classes) but it is so much better if there is genuine competition between similar technological era and performance cars.
Of course, there is a balance to be had, because there can’t be a class for every group of 3 similar cars, but there has to be an encouragement for competition too. What I find illogical is not just the fact that a 2 litre Millington and sequential equipped car is in the same class as Pinto and h-pattern box equipped car, but the fact that in many events and championships these days there has been a a split in class between sequential equipped 4wd and h-pattern 4wd cars, because ………….the performance is so different!!!
Edited by andy97 on Sunday 9th April 07:42
I’ve a general concern over Historic rallying not moving with the times and there’s zero encouragement to do so.
On Rally North Wales we were in a class of our own (literally not due to my driving !). Category 4 is where 205, Astra, Cosworth, GT4 etc all sit but there was only us out in the 309.
I get the Mk2 thing but it’s getting too much both in terms of cost and the sheer number of them. It’s great to see some 911’s back out and whilst we’ll invariably be Escort mounted if we’re out on the RAC I’m quietly hoping it’ll be something unusual or different.
On Rally North Wales we were in a class of our own (literally not due to my driving !). Category 4 is where 205, Astra, Cosworth, GT4 etc all sit but there was only us out in the 309.
I get the Mk2 thing but it’s getting too much both in terms of cost and the sheer number of them. It’s great to see some 911’s back out and whilst we’ll invariably be Escort mounted if we’re out on the RAC I’m quietly hoping it’ll be something unusual or different.
BEP said:
I’ve a general concern over Historic rallying not moving with the times and there’s zero encouragement to do so.
On Rally North Wales we were in a class of our own (literally not due to my driving !). Category 4 is where 205, Astra, Cosworth, GT4 etc all sit but there was only us out in the 309.
I get the Mk2 thing but it’s getting too much both in terms of cost and the sheer number of them. It’s great to see some 911’s back out and whilst we’ll invariably be Escort mounted if we’re out on the RAC I’m quietly hoping it’ll be something unusual or different.
Too many vested interests in Escorts in U.K. club rallying, not just historics, sadly.On Rally North Wales we were in a class of our own (literally not due to my driving !). Category 4 is where 205, Astra, Cosworth, GT4 etc all sit but there was only us out in the 309.
I get the Mk2 thing but it’s getting too much both in terms of cost and the sheer number of them. It’s great to see some 911’s back out and whilst we’ll invariably be Escort mounted if we’re out on the RAC I’m quietly hoping it’ll be something unusual or different.
I get it, and I am an Escort owner but the MSUK should not allow engine swaps and clicky boxes beyond what was available back in the day, in my view.
And as for historics, the sport has to move on. Sierra Cosworths and Audi Quattros etc are now historic, and should be rated as such. If we didn’t have overall winners and just had class winners maybe it wouldn’t matter. Crikey, in circuit racing there are “historic championships) dorm21st century super tourers and Le Mans cars whilst in U.K. rallying, historic stops at 1990 or before.
The problem is that period stuff like Quattro, Whistling Pig, 240RS are still worth a ton with fewer parts, abroad you get more variety yes, but more of a range toGpA.
RAC does seem typically UK stuffy, but I love it, just be great to have some Mantas, Asconas, TR8, Saabs up front not just Escorts even an HSR would be nice, but again it's parts and value I gueI do see Reynolds is in a Sunbeam which might be an outside bet for a result
RAC does seem typically UK stuffy, but I love it, just be great to have some Mantas, Asconas, TR8, Saabs up front not just Escorts even an HSR would be nice, but again it's parts and value I gueI do see Reynolds is in a Sunbeam which might be an outside bet for a result
You'd have to be very affluent and even more enterprising to run much of the other historic stuff now.
What was an old competition car worth a bit 10-15 years back is now a blue chip investment.
I'd love to see more gp A stuff but that's the same for the famous ones and latter period cars became ever more trick.
Each car needs a cottage industry to keep going and I'll guess some don't have any at all.
What was an old competition car worth a bit 10-15 years back is now a blue chip investment.
I'd love to see more gp A stuff but that's the same for the famous ones and latter period cars became ever more trick.
Each car needs a cottage industry to keep going and I'll guess some don't have any at all.
We have a 'classic 4wd' class here in NZ for the older Legacies, Imprezas and Evos etc, do you have anything similar?
H6-swapped Imprezas (using the EZ30 from a 3.0 Legacy or Outback) are becoming pretty popular, they aren't quite as fast as most of the 2.0 turbos but they are strong, reliable, significantly cheaper to run and make a great noise.
H6-swapped Imprezas (using the EZ30 from a 3.0 Legacy or Outback) are becoming pretty popular, they aren't quite as fast as most of the 2.0 turbos but they are strong, reliable, significantly cheaper to run and make a great noise.
andy97 said:
Too many vested interests in Escorts in U.K. club rallying, not just historics, sadly.
I get it, and I am an Escort owner but the MSUK should not allow engine swaps and clicky boxes beyond what was available back in the day, in my view.
And as for historics, the sport has to move on. Sierra Cosworths and Audi Quattros etc are now historic, and should be rated as such. If we didn’t have overall winners and just had class winners maybe it wouldn’t matter. Crikey, in circuit racing there are “historic championships) dorm21st century super tourers and Le Mans cars whilst in U.K. rallying, historic stops at 1990 or before.
Sums up UK rallying perfectly. I'd even guess that anything after the mid 80s is classed as 'modern' - laughable. The Impreza is 30 years old this year; that is surely 'Historic'? Historics shouldn't have a 'cut off' point, it should constantly move.....I get it, and I am an Escort owner but the MSUK should not allow engine swaps and clicky boxes beyond what was available back in the day, in my view.
And as for historics, the sport has to move on. Sierra Cosworths and Audi Quattros etc are now historic, and should be rated as such. If we didn’t have overall winners and just had class winners maybe it wouldn’t matter. Crikey, in circuit racing there are “historic championships) dorm21st century super tourers and Le Mans cars whilst in U.K. rallying, historic stops at 1990 or before.
We just don't help ourselves in this country.....
LukeBrown66 said:
My mate and I have laughably always talked about dong the RAC in a Marina Coupe however!
A Marina Coupe did the Mull Rally a few years ago, Honda S2000-powered if I remember right, good to see something different.I used to enjoy the RAC when it started in Yorkshire and headed to Kielder/SW Scotland/Kershope, trekking down to Wales and then all the way back north doesn't appeal as much although the new format is undoubtedly a success.
That's the reason I'd heard as well. It also has to be said, there's only a limited number of events that the FC allow in the Yorkshire forests.
I recall about 15 years ago spectating at the Riponian, the Kall Kwik and North Humberside from February to early April, then the Trackrod, Malton & RAC in the autumn after the break in the summer peak time for the walkers/MTB-ers/leisure users.
One got the feeling that the FC weren't exactly enthusiastic about motorsport in the Yorkshire forests. And they were more visible than their Welsh counterparts, who you'd hardly see at all. In fact, I recall they'd be on the gates taking the money, whereas in Wales you'd see the local club/ cubs & scouts taking the parking money.
I recall about 15 years ago spectating at the Riponian, the Kall Kwik and North Humberside from February to early April, then the Trackrod, Malton & RAC in the autumn after the break in the summer peak time for the walkers/MTB-ers/leisure users.
One got the feeling that the FC weren't exactly enthusiastic about motorsport in the Yorkshire forests. And they were more visible than their Welsh counterparts, who you'd hardly see at all. In fact, I recall they'd be on the gates taking the money, whereas in Wales you'd see the local club/ cubs & scouts taking the parking money.
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