Discussion
Basic points
Ge was flying without a licence for the machine he was, he was licenced to fly it, but the licence had expired.
The area he was in was notorious and difficult to fly in, typical McRae.
He was flying low and also doing some basic aerobatic stuff in the machine. There was video evidence of this too I gather
Ge was flying without a licence for the machine he was, he was licenced to fly it, but the licence had expired.
The area he was in was notorious and difficult to fly in, typical McRae.
He was flying low and also doing some basic aerobatic stuff in the machine. There was video evidence of this too I gather
I find the beatification of McRae hard to stomach . 'If in doubt flat out' might have been a snappy mantra for his adoring fans to adopt but the same mindset killed three people , two of them children . One was his son , the other was in the bloody helicopter without parental permission .
The AAIB report into the helicopter crash uses some of the most extreme language I’ve ever seen, in reading air accident reports for 30 years. They usually go out of their way to avoid blaming individuals who cannot defend themselves, and look for systemic or mechanical issues that might explain why an accident happened.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media...
Conclusion
The cause of the accident was not positively determined.
Although no technical reason was found to explain it,
a technical fault, whilst considered unlikely, could not
be ruled out entirely. The available evidence indicated
that the helicopter was intact when it struck the trees
and that the engine was delivering power. The aircraft’s
trajectory suggested that the pilot was in control of the
aircraft at the time of impact and was attempting to
recover from a significant deviation from his intended
flight path when the helicopter struck the trees.
The descent into the Mouse Water Valley appears to
have been a deliberate manoeuvre. Considering the
video evidence, the pilot’s intention was probably to
fly a hard, right turn at low height within the valley,
possibly leading to a further, final zoom climb before
landing at the helipad. A high-speed, low-level
turning manoeuvre in the heavily wooded valley
was a demanding one, which would have subjected
the helicopter and its occupants to an increased risk.
The circumstances of the accident, which included a
strong tailwind, suggest that the pilot needed to fly an
unexpectedly high performance manoeuvre which led
to, or contributed to, the flight path deviation. This
deviation may have been due to a servo transparency
encounter, spatial disorientation, misjudgement or
some other factor or combination of factors.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media...
Conclusion
The cause of the accident was not positively determined.
Although no technical reason was found to explain it,
a technical fault, whilst considered unlikely, could not
be ruled out entirely. The available evidence indicated
that the helicopter was intact when it struck the trees
and that the engine was delivering power. The aircraft’s
trajectory suggested that the pilot was in control of the
aircraft at the time of impact and was attempting to
recover from a significant deviation from his intended
flight path when the helicopter struck the trees.
The descent into the Mouse Water Valley appears to
have been a deliberate manoeuvre. Considering the
video evidence, the pilot’s intention was probably to
fly a hard, right turn at low height within the valley,
possibly leading to a further, final zoom climb before
landing at the helipad. A high-speed, low-level
turning manoeuvre in the heavily wooded valley
was a demanding one, which would have subjected
the helicopter and its occupants to an increased risk.
The circumstances of the accident, which included a
strong tailwind, suggest that the pilot needed to fly an
unexpectedly high performance manoeuvre which led
to, or contributed to, the flight path deviation. This
deviation may have been due to a servo transparency
encounter, spatial disorientation, misjudgement or
some other factor or combination of factors.
Sandpit Steve said:
This deviation may have been due to a servo transparency encounter, spatial disorientation, misjudgement or some other factor or combination of factors.
‘Servo transparency’ is also known as ‘jack stall’ and Jimmy McRae believes this was the possible cause of the accident - although he would obviously want to protect his son, and there were multiple other factors.
The AS350 Écureuil has hydraulic assistance on the cyclic (main flight control - joystick on a fixed wing).
Under certain extreme manoeuvres, this has been known to lock solid causing temporary loss of control.
For those who are interested, this was the Scottish Court findings - not the AAIB report.
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/jud...
McRae was always the fastest, right up until the crash. The problem is, you can get away with that in a car, not so much in a helicopter. Very fast for sure, but there was a definite ego/talent disconnect.
Despite what Hollywood will have you believe, most pilots are not big risk takers, and most flying is a very thoughtful, methodical and risk-averse process. i.e., nothing like McRae's driving.
Unsurprising it ended the way it did. Very sad he took innocent children with him.
Despite what Hollywood will have you believe, most pilots are not big risk takers, and most flying is a very thoughtful, methodical and risk-averse process. i.e., nothing like McRae's driving.
Unsurprising it ended the way it did. Very sad he took innocent children with him.
LimaDelta said:
McRae was always the fastest,.
Was he though? He's career was ending as I really got into the WRC so just going off wiki, he has 1 title, 3 seconds and 1 third.Just going off of that, he doesn't seem to be the fastest. I do wonder has his death added to his legend, as another poster has mentioned, his beautification.
confucuis said:
LimaDelta said:
McRae was always the fastest,.
Was he though? He's career was ending as I really got into the WRC so just going off wiki, he has 1 title, 3 seconds and 1 third.Just going off of that, he doesn't seem to be the fastest. I do wonder has his death added to his legend, as another poster has mentioned, his beautification.
McRae was a great driver when the conditions favoured him. He had some natural talent for car control that led to some some spectacular moments but his weakness was inconsistency. A number of his notable crashes were avoidable and ultimately his inability to drive strategically over a rally was his undoing. You watch clips of him flashing past the camera and assume that he would have won more than he did, because other drivers could stick to a plan better than he could even if it meant driving at 9/10ths pace rather than flat out. Had he continued to compete I think he would have been rather shown up by the style of driving used by Loeb and those who came after. Loeb showed how the best drivers match unparalleled technical ability with cool-headed consistency.
As for the helicopter crash, it was totally stupid and avoidable. That his legacy is tarnished is only natural.
As for the helicopter crash, it was totally stupid and avoidable. That his legacy is tarnished is only natural.
LimaDelta said:
confucuis said:
LimaDelta said:
McRae was always the fastest,.
Was he though? He's career was ending as I really got into the WRC so just going off wiki, he has 1 title, 3 seconds and 1 third.Just going off of that, he doesn't seem to be the fastest. I do wonder has his death added to his legend, as another poster has mentioned, his beautification.
I suspect many have forgotten that in both 1997 & 1998, car issues cost him both titles. There was a recurring problem in 1997, one of which took him out of a comfortable lead in NZ. And he actually led the last two events in 1998 - but turbo/engine issues ended that.
2001 is remembered for that crash in Rhondda; but what isn't remembered is the Focus/ Pirelli combination that season was hopeless on the Tarmac - and he didn't score a point on the black stuff at all. And not forgetting Rally Australia - turning up too late to pick road position, left him with no chance of winning, and a souring of the relationship with Grist who was blamed.
Later in 2002, there was an off in NZ, and one of his answers was "ask the Welsh wizard". Ringer was brought in for 2003, but he patched up the differences with Nicky and they did a few more WRC events together, until his last in Turkey in 2006.
confucuis said:
I'm conflicted about him tbh.
Obviously an incredible driver but the his death and causing the death of others has tarnished him.
Also having listened to Nicky Grists interview with Chris Harris (which is a fantastic listen to on Spotify collecting cars podcast!), he doesn't come across well in some of Nicky's stories. It's been awhile since I last listened to it but I seem to remember basically Nicky saying McRae wouldn't take responsibility for some accidents that were his fault, and in the end, Nicky found out McRae had dropped him from a reporter calling him rather than from McRae. Those stories have tarnished him quite a bit in my opinion.
I remember immediately after the accident they had Grist on the TV saying stuff like "Oh Colin would never fk about in the helicopter" He didn't need to say anything. And it didn't age well. He probably had doubts even at that point 24hrs after the crash!Obviously an incredible driver but the his death and causing the death of others has tarnished him.
Also having listened to Nicky Grists interview with Chris Harris (which is a fantastic listen to on Spotify collecting cars podcast!), he doesn't come across well in some of Nicky's stories. It's been awhile since I last listened to it but I seem to remember basically Nicky saying McRae wouldn't take responsibility for some accidents that were his fault, and in the end, Nicky found out McRae had dropped him from a reporter calling him rather than from McRae. Those stories have tarnished him quite a bit in my opinion.
Voldemort said:
I admit to making many mistakes in my life so far. But I am not responsible for the death of my own or other people's children.
There comes a point where the scale of the mistake has to affect the opinion and killing children is so far beyond that point as to be concerning that you - or anyone else - is able to put it to one side.
100% this! If it had been a mechanical, or a freak weather condition or something like bird strike. Absolutely I'd be a fan to this day. There comes a point where the scale of the mistake has to affect the opinion and killing children is so far beyond that point as to be concerning that you - or anyone else - is able to put it to one side.
But it wasn't. And once the investigation came out. That he had taken "the scenic route" to piss about and hit a tree X metres BELOW its top. I sold off his book, a DVD or 2 and the few model cars and anything else with his name on.
I've f
ked up in life. We all have. But when I've driven with kids in my car. Whether related or not. I've driven like a old lady. Its called being a grown up! I cant even comprehend dicking about in a helicopter with an expired licence!When it comes to the Impreza, a car I adore, I only think of Burns, Liatti and Sainz now!
Gary C said:
I remember reading a story of Moss (I think it was) changing a cassette tape with one hand, while sliding a car across three lanes of a highway as he almost missed the exit while still chatting to the passenger.
Degraded risk perception plus a bit of showing off can be dangerous in us all.
Similarly, anyone that met him away from a motorsport event will tell you Moss was a massive bell end who happened to have better than average car skillDegraded risk perception plus a bit of showing off can be dangerous in us all.
coppice said:
I find the beatification of McRae hard to stomach . 'If in doubt flat out' might have been a snappy mantra for his adoring fans to adopt but the same mindset killed three people , two of them children . One was his son , the other was in the bloody helicopter without parental permission .
flatlandsman said:
it is just very very sad, his kids careers would have been fascinating to watch if he had still been around, some of them no doubt would have wanted to get into rallying or something similar.
Holly McRae works in media for Rallying (Dirtfish I believe) and IIRC drove an Impreza at Goodwood FOS. Not sure how I feel about that. Its clearly as a result of her surname. It garnered media attention in the normal press. I do wonder what the other bereaved families made of the inevitable reverence for the McRae name. But then you also cant blame the daughter for the sins of the father
I have never really got the hype around McRae. But then I was in single figures age wise when he was doing it.
I came across his name from the games on PS2 as a teenager. As I got older I took more interest and was frankly quite surprised to find he only had one title to his name. I suppose you kind of assume when you have game series named after you that, that person must be the undisputed top dog of his sport.
Of course I only have the written word and videos to form my opinion. But I have never been able to get excited about him. He no doubt had some phenomenal drives. I just always come to the conclusion that he was quite one dimensional. Just massively fast in a sport that is quite attritional. When you read stuff that at first is quite romantic like you always knew when he had been down a stage as there would be tracks going up the bank and cutting the corners more than anyone else clipped fences etc, it sounds hardcore and exciting. As I have got older I read that as battered the car. Cars obviously break in motorsport as a whole and particularly rallying. Can’t help wondering if he might have done a bit better overall if he had taken it back a notch every now and then.
I wasn’t there though so it’s all just opinion based on not a lot.
For those that where around at the time everyone seems to have been massively excited about what he achieved. I guess he was a moment in time that you had to be there for in many ways.
Have always wondered from those that know more than I do. How big an influence on the title he did win was Sainz missing a rally due to injury?
I came across his name from the games on PS2 as a teenager. As I got older I took more interest and was frankly quite surprised to find he only had one title to his name. I suppose you kind of assume when you have game series named after you that, that person must be the undisputed top dog of his sport.
Of course I only have the written word and videos to form my opinion. But I have never been able to get excited about him. He no doubt had some phenomenal drives. I just always come to the conclusion that he was quite one dimensional. Just massively fast in a sport that is quite attritional. When you read stuff that at first is quite romantic like you always knew when he had been down a stage as there would be tracks going up the bank and cutting the corners more than anyone else clipped fences etc, it sounds hardcore and exciting. As I have got older I read that as battered the car. Cars obviously break in motorsport as a whole and particularly rallying. Can’t help wondering if he might have done a bit better overall if he had taken it back a notch every now and then.
I wasn’t there though so it’s all just opinion based on not a lot.
For those that where around at the time everyone seems to have been massively excited about what he achieved. I guess he was a moment in time that you had to be there for in many ways.
Have always wondered from those that know more than I do. How big an influence on the title he did win was Sainz missing a rally due to injury?
I guess there are just drivers that capture peoples imagination at certain times. I think the usual ones are Ari, Henri, Colin and perhaps a few others.
Mainly as they are fairly flamboyant, and are quite personable when you meet them.
My experiences with Colin were just simple ones of following his career from when he started, then seeing him on a few events and things stay with you, he would always take more risk and you could see it, a gear higher, more of a jump going nearer to the edge of the road.
The best one I can give is RAC 2000, I wanted Marcus to win, he was my fave at the time, partly coz of him partly the 206. Can't remember the stage but it was a very wide but heavily crowned road, so the main surface was about 10 feet but where we were you could cut maybe a car width but you would drop quite far down into a gully and then pop back up onto the main road, it was wet.
Tommi, Marcus, Richard came though, cutting by about a foot. there was a bloke about 30 feet in front standing at the bottom of the gulley and Carlos came through next, cut about 3 feet and he went back to stand there, I shouted to him, "You know who is next mate dont you, I would move," Sure enough Colin was entirely in the gully, about 2 feet from us a fullcar width cutting more than anyone else.
That is why people loved him, as he just did things that made you mutter "Colin". He had sublime car control, but he was prone to a crash, that was just him.
Mainly as they are fairly flamboyant, and are quite personable when you meet them.
My experiences with Colin were just simple ones of following his career from when he started, then seeing him on a few events and things stay with you, he would always take more risk and you could see it, a gear higher, more of a jump going nearer to the edge of the road.
The best one I can give is RAC 2000, I wanted Marcus to win, he was my fave at the time, partly coz of him partly the 206. Can't remember the stage but it was a very wide but heavily crowned road, so the main surface was about 10 feet but where we were you could cut maybe a car width but you would drop quite far down into a gully and then pop back up onto the main road, it was wet.
Tommi, Marcus, Richard came though, cutting by about a foot. there was a bloke about 30 feet in front standing at the bottom of the gulley and Carlos came through next, cut about 3 feet and he went back to stand there, I shouted to him, "You know who is next mate dont you, I would move," Sure enough Colin was entirely in the gully, about 2 feet from us a fullcar width cutting more than anyone else.
That is why people loved him, as he just did things that made you mutter "Colin". He had sublime car control, but he was prone to a crash, that was just him.
ntiz said:
I have never really got the hype around McRae. But then I was in single figures age wise when he was doing it.
I came across his name from the games on PS2 as a teenager. As I got older I took more interest and was frankly quite surprised to find he only had one title to his name. I suppose you kind of assume when you have game series named after you that, that person must be the undisputed top dog of his sport.
Of course I only have the written word and videos to form my opinion. But I have never been able to get excited about him. He no doubt had some phenomenal drives. I just always come to the conclusion that he was quite one dimensional. Just massively fast in a sport that is quite attritional. When you read stuff that at first is quite romantic like you always knew when he had been down a stage as there would be tracks going up the bank and cutting the corners more than anyone else clipped fences etc, it sounds hardcore and exciting. As I have got older I read that as battered the car. Cars obviously break in motorsport as a whole and particularly rallying. Can’t help wondering if he might have done a bit better overall if he had taken it back a notch every now and then.
I wasn’t there though so it’s all just opinion based on not a lot.
For those that where around at the time everyone seems to have been massively excited about what he achieved. I guess he was a moment in time that you had to be there for in many ways.
Have always wondered from those that know more than I do. How big an influence on the title he did win was Sainz missing a rally due to injury?
He was a thrilling driver to watch and he was British , which was enough for many. Remember that rallying was a very accessible sport and rallies were much longer than today's emasculated version. So if you were into the sport you had ample opportunity to see it live , along with literally a million or so others . And exposure to the real thing , out in Kielder or Dalby , thrilled far more than watching it on TV . I came across his name from the games on PS2 as a teenager. As I got older I took more interest and was frankly quite surprised to find he only had one title to his name. I suppose you kind of assume when you have game series named after you that, that person must be the undisputed top dog of his sport.
Of course I only have the written word and videos to form my opinion. But I have never been able to get excited about him. He no doubt had some phenomenal drives. I just always come to the conclusion that he was quite one dimensional. Just massively fast in a sport that is quite attritional. When you read stuff that at first is quite romantic like you always knew when he had been down a stage as there would be tracks going up the bank and cutting the corners more than anyone else clipped fences etc, it sounds hardcore and exciting. As I have got older I read that as battered the car. Cars obviously break in motorsport as a whole and particularly rallying. Can’t help wondering if he might have done a bit better overall if he had taken it back a notch every now and then.
I wasn’t there though so it’s all just opinion based on not a lot.
For those that where around at the time everyone seems to have been massively excited about what he achieved. I guess he was a moment in time that you had to be there for in many ways.
Have always wondered from those that know more than I do. How big an influence on the title he did win was Sainz missing a rally due to injury?
When I first saw the RAC , Roger Clark was a similar Brit folk hero , as was Tony Pond a few years later. Comparisons are notoriously odious , but the drivers who've impressed me most , up close on a stage , included Mikkola , Vatanen , Eklund, Alen and Waldegaard - and McRae
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