Discussion
Tony1963 said:
People appear to have forgiven Graham Hill for his similar error, so perhaps we just need to wait another twenty years or so for Colin?
I'd suggest that whilst Hill was responsible (and his family were very nearly bankrupted in payouts after the event) At no point was "pissing about" the cause. And everyone on that flight was an adult who had gotten on board knowing the risks. Though there are similarities in that GHs licence was also expired.ISTR the weather was a factor too. And the wiki says that Hill was told visibility was 800m, when in reality it was around 50-100 (according to eyewitnesses)
Semantics maybe, but I had no interest in Graham Hill or his racing career, so feel no reason to defend him what appears to have been a genuine accident
I read the AAIB report in full earlier, it's amazing the lengths that they went to in order to find literally any plausible explanation for the helicopter crash other than McRae being irresponsible and reckless, ultimately costing the lives of everyone on board. It seems he was an irresponsible pilot, shirking his responsibilities with regards to maintaining his licence and logs for his helicopter and undertaking a manner of flying beyond his ability, which ultimately lead to those gruesome deaths.
As a rally driver, he was no doubt a showman and garnered love from the fans with his wildman style. However, despite the "When in doubt, flat out" mantra becoming a popular one among certain circles of motorsport fans or (or just Subaru enthusiasts), it was and is very rarely a successful tactic in rallying, where one mistake can destroy a whole weekend of successful driving in an instant.
Colin no doubt learned this the hard way, or maybe he didn't, as he thrashed and crashed his way out of contention, blaming the car, blaming his co-driver but seemingly never blaming himself. He won only a single title and was regularly behind the other, more consistent drivers.
I think his limitations would have been showed up in stark light next to Loeb, had McRae carried on driving longer. Loeb was an unbeatable talent because of his extreme skill and consistency. He set the standard for a new method of driving which was picked up by Ogier and others.
I think away from those who will always hold him in a special place in their hearts, the more objective telling of history will remember him as an entertaining, if inconsistent driver who couldn't measure out the pace and dial it back to collect the wins when needed and whose foolish actions lead to the death of three innocent people, two of them being children.
As a rally driver, he was no doubt a showman and garnered love from the fans with his wildman style. However, despite the "When in doubt, flat out" mantra becoming a popular one among certain circles of motorsport fans or (or just Subaru enthusiasts), it was and is very rarely a successful tactic in rallying, where one mistake can destroy a whole weekend of successful driving in an instant.
Colin no doubt learned this the hard way, or maybe he didn't, as he thrashed and crashed his way out of contention, blaming the car, blaming his co-driver but seemingly never blaming himself. He won only a single title and was regularly behind the other, more consistent drivers.
I think his limitations would have been showed up in stark light next to Loeb, had McRae carried on driving longer. Loeb was an unbeatable talent because of his extreme skill and consistency. He set the standard for a new method of driving which was picked up by Ogier and others.
I think away from those who will always hold him in a special place in their hearts, the more objective telling of history will remember him as an entertaining, if inconsistent driver who couldn't measure out the pace and dial it back to collect the wins when needed and whose foolish actions lead to the death of three innocent people, two of them being children.
stevemcs said:
The first time i saw him outside of a tv was clumber park looking for a bus stop but ending up denting the legacy on a straw bale. He never backed off, even if it guarenteed a win.
To me this actually says he wasn't a great. Not knowing when to back off shows (imo) an immature mindset, ditto bring unable to accept responsibility for various 'offs'.When you get to the helicopter accident it's a lot more complicated - because he also died he was never able to try and atone for his f
kup, and it was a fk-up rather than a deliberate act. BunkMoreland said:
I'd suggest that whilst Hill was responsible (and his family were very nearly bankrupted in payouts after the event) At no point was "pissing about" the cause. And everyone on that flight was an adult who had gotten on board knowing the risks. Though there are similarities in that GHs licence was also expired.
ISTR the weather was a factor too. And the wiki says that Hill was told visibility was 800m, when in reality it was around 50-100 (according to eyewitnesses)
Semantics maybe, but I had no interest in Graham Hill or his racing career, so feel no reason to defend him what appears to have been a genuine accident
You had no interest so that makes it ok?ISTR the weather was a factor too. And the wiki says that Hill was told visibility was 800m, when in reality it was around 50-100 (according to eyewitnesses)
Semantics maybe, but I had no interest in Graham Hill or his racing career, so feel no reason to defend him what appears to have been a genuine accident
Hill was equally as irresponsible on that flight, and flying in general, if you read the excellent David Tremanye book 'the lost generation' he goes into some length as to Hill's flying MO.
Not for him were there any pre flight checks, literally just fire it up and send it along the run way
He once, set the planes autopilot on, and then got in the back with his passengers to talk to them - until one of the passengers asked Graham if he knew that there were mountains in this area
He crashed at Arkley Wood, in thick thick fog, he was wanred of this and asked if he wanted to Land at Luton? But his cars were at Borehamwood and he had a party to get to.
It would therefore be fair to say that Hill had a cavalier attitude to flying, just like McRae.
Mastodon2 said:
I read the AAIB report in full earlier, it's amazing the lengths that they went to in order to find literally any plausible explanation for the helicopter crash other than McRae being irresponsible and reckless, ultimately costing the lives of everyone on board. It seems he was an irresponsible pilot, shirking his responsibilities with regards to maintaining his licence and logs for his helicopter and undertaking a manner of flying beyond his ability, which ultimately lead to those gruesome deaths.
As a rally driver, he was no doubt a showman and garnered love from the fans with his wildman style. However, despite the "When in doubt, flat out" mantra becoming a popular one among certain circles of motorsport fans or (or just Subaru enthusiasts), it was and is very rarely a successful tactic in rallying, where one mistake can destroy a whole weekend of successful driving in an instant.
Colin no doubt learned this the hard way, or maybe he didn't, as he thrashed and crashed his way out of contention, blaming the car, blaming his co-driver but seemingly never blaming himself. He won only a single title and was regularly behind the other, more consistent drivers.
I think his limitations would have been showed up in stark light next to Loeb, had McRae carried on driving longer. Loeb was an unbeatable talent because of his extreme skill and consistency. He set the standard for a new method of driving which was picked up by Ogier and others.
I think away from those who will always hold him in a special place in their hearts, the more objective telling of history will remember him as an entertaining, if inconsistent driver who couldn't measure out the pace and dial it back to collect the wins when needed and whose foolish actions lead to the death of three innocent people, two of them being children.
Colin's driving style very well suited the cars of the time. His stats at world level don't bear out him being a crasher any more than anyone else. Yes a younger generation drove the newer cars better, but that's progress. McRae was better than Mikkola, Loeb was better than McRae.As a rally driver, he was no doubt a showman and garnered love from the fans with his wildman style. However, despite the "When in doubt, flat out" mantra becoming a popular one among certain circles of motorsport fans or (or just Subaru enthusiasts), it was and is very rarely a successful tactic in rallying, where one mistake can destroy a whole weekend of successful driving in an instant.
Colin no doubt learned this the hard way, or maybe he didn't, as he thrashed and crashed his way out of contention, blaming the car, blaming his co-driver but seemingly never blaming himself. He won only a single title and was regularly behind the other, more consistent drivers.
I think his limitations would have been showed up in stark light next to Loeb, had McRae carried on driving longer. Loeb was an unbeatable talent because of his extreme skill and consistency. He set the standard for a new method of driving which was picked up by Ogier and others.
I think away from those who will always hold him in a special place in their hearts, the more objective telling of history will remember him as an entertaining, if inconsistent driver who couldn't measure out the pace and dial it back to collect the wins when needed and whose foolish actions lead to the death of three innocent people, two of them being children.
From 94 to 2001 he finished 1st once, 2nd 3 times, 3rd once. The reliability of the Subaru in 97 and 98 let him down massively, very likely that a couple more finishes in each season would have seen him a 3x champion.
Really the only people who have a right to be upset are his family and the family of those that died.
Everyone else just has to accept that he wasn't perfect nor pretended to be.
I'm cautious about comparing the circumstances of Hill and McRae's deaths. But I will try - Hill was returning from testing , doubtless tired and stressed by the fact it was a winter's night . A more careful pilot might not have taken the risks Hill did , and certainly would not have been as cavalier about stuff like insurance . His attitude and demeanour were not untypical - many people in racing flew themselves regularly , and there are lots of tales about how Chapman and others took daft risks.
Three decades on , society took a very dim view of the sort of cavalier behaviour McRae indulged in. And cruclally , I think , McRae was actively courting risk by showing off and - unforgivably - did so with children on board.
So , in my book , both behaved badly but McRae's behaviour was the worse - it was appalling risk taking for the sake of it . .
Three decades on , society took a very dim view of the sort of cavalier behaviour McRae indulged in. And cruclally , I think , McRae was actively courting risk by showing off and - unforgivably - did so with children on board.
So , in my book , both behaved badly but McRae's behaviour was the worse - it was appalling risk taking for the sake of it . .
Muzzer79 said:
It's becoming clear through this debate that it's the children factor that is key in the emotion around Colin's accident.
If he was flying with 3 other adults on board, I expect attitudes surrounding the accident would be different.
A combination of the children, and the reckless disregard for licensing and insurance. If he was flying with 3 other adults on board, I expect attitudes surrounding the accident would be different.
If everyone on board were adults, who understood that their unlicenced and uninsured pilot was going to push the limits of the airframe, then fair enough.
It is his legacy sadly, and it always will be, the sad aspects of his later life will always taint everything you talk about, especially on a forum.
I have shared a few little anecdotes about him, and they are ones I treasure. I will also add that there is a piece of onboard footage from about 2001/2 of him on a stage in Wales and I think it is the finest piece of on the limit driving I have EVER seen and likely ever will see in my life.
There are others that stay with you, Depailler in the wet at Montreal, Estre at the Ring a few years back, Sabine on slicks in the wet a bit earlier, and a few other rally ones.
But that clip shows a man doing things very few could do, on a limit not many ever achieved, the speed, commitment, cuts he takes are literally scary.
I have shared a few little anecdotes about him, and they are ones I treasure. I will also add that there is a piece of onboard footage from about 2001/2 of him on a stage in Wales and I think it is the finest piece of on the limit driving I have EVER seen and likely ever will see in my life.
There are others that stay with you, Depailler in the wet at Montreal, Estre at the Ring a few years back, Sabine on slicks in the wet a bit earlier, and a few other rally ones.
But that clip shows a man doing things very few could do, on a limit not many ever achieved, the speed, commitment, cuts he takes are literally scary.
coppice said:
He was a thrilling driver to watch and he was British , which was enough for many. Remember that rallying was a very accessible sport and rallies were much longer than today's emasculated version. So if you were into the sport you had ample opportunity to see it live , along with literally a million or so others . And exposure to the real thing , out in Kielder or Dalby , thrilled far more than watching it on TV .
When I first saw the RAC , Roger Clark was a similar Brit folk hero , as was Tony Pond a few years later. Comparisons are notoriously odious , but the drivers who've impressed me most , up close on a stage , included Mikkola , Vatanen , Eklund, Alen and Waldegaard - and McRae
Wish I could go back and watch them all again. I'd add Stig Blomqvist to that list and one other brit who impressed me immensely both in the forest and on tarmac. Russell Brookes. He had some really entertaining battles with Jimmy McRae in the British rally championship - and one minor tussle with me in my 998 Imp in-between stages of the Scottish rally - last thing at night. Didn't see which way he went...When I first saw the RAC , Roger Clark was a similar Brit folk hero , as was Tony Pond a few years later. Comparisons are notoriously odious , but the drivers who've impressed me most , up close on a stage , included Mikkola , Vatanen , Eklund, Alen and Waldegaard - and McRae
That letter, ten years ago when I used to buy magazines such as Evo, sums it all up for me.
I first saw Colin McRae in his Nova days, and even then he stood out, especially against the established ‘old guard’ of drivers. You just knew that if he didn’t do anything silly, he’d be up at the front somewhere. He even made his dad and Brookes look safe and boring.
Whether we choose to forgive/ignore his errors resulting in the helicopter crash is up to us as individuals. I’ve forgiven Chapman for putting drivers in death traps, and I’ve forgiven F1 for saving me lots of money by turning me off their circus completely.
Colin was a breath of fresh air in rallying.
It’s all a bit stale again now. I see no point in rallying: it services no purpose that I can see, and the drivers are yawn-inducing, marketing-led bores. (To me! We can all think differently)
I must admit that although I can get misty eyed about cars I've seen on stages - 911s , 6R4 , 205T16 , Quattro Sport , Delta S4 , Stratos , Impreza and the usual suspects - the current breed of WRC cars are simply mindblowingly fast. I loathe the short route format which has stripped the adventure from rallying but the current cars are ferociously fast . Shame they all sound the same but they are still things of wonder so far as naked speed is concerned.
coppice said:
I must admit that although I can get misty eyed about cars I've seen on stages - 911s , 6R4 , 205T16 , Quattro Sport , Delta S4 , Stratos , Impreza and the usual suspects - the current breed of WRC cars are simply mindblowingly fast. I loathe the short route format which has stripped the adventure from rallying but the current cars are ferociously fast . Shame they all sound the same but they are still things of wonder so far as naked speed is concerned.
Agreed, but there's more to it as a spectator than outright speed. As with F1, I'd rather watch almost any era of racing before anything since the beginning of 2014. Perhaps as motorsport ages it loses something. There are fairly regular road cars with more power than any current BTCC or WRC car, and quite a few hypercars with more power than any F1 car... it's a strange old world, and I'm not a happy (former) spectator.
Tony1963 said:
Agreed, but there's more to it as a spectator than outright speed. As with F1, I'd rather watch almost any era of racing before any F1 season since the beginning of 2014.
Perhaps as motorsport ages it loses something. There are fairly regular road cars with more power than any current BTCC or WRC car, and quite a few hypercars with more power than any F1 car... it's a strange old world, and I'm not a happy (former) spectator.Edited by Tony1963 on Wednesday 17th January 17:21
I think you are right. Sadly there are reason for the speed, a lot of it is practice and basically learning stages by heart by spending hours and hours every day and night watching stages on recce tapes, which I find rather a shame.
I think the top rally men are up there with the bravest and quickest of motorsport drivers, and those who can win consistently like Loeb, Ogier and Kalle are from an elite crop.
But the rallies are not what they were, there seems to be little emphasis on endurance now, it is all sprints. That is a lost art that a Mikkola, Jim McRae, Brookes learned all too early. Actually there is still a way to see it, every two years in November a rally basically from the 70's shows you exactly what it was like. But even that is a shadow if what old rallies used to be.
I think the top rally men are up there with the bravest and quickest of motorsport drivers, and those who can win consistently like Loeb, Ogier and Kalle are from an elite crop.
But the rallies are not what they were, there seems to be little emphasis on endurance now, it is all sprints. That is a lost art that a Mikkola, Jim McRae, Brookes learned all too early. Actually there is still a way to see it, every two years in November a rally basically from the 70's shows you exactly what it was like. But even that is a shadow if what old rallies used to be.
flatlandsman said:
Actually there is still a way to see it, every two years in November a rally basically from the 70's shows you exactly what it was like. But even that is a shadow if what old rallies used to be.
Except it's not the same, is it, not really.I just struggle these days with finding any motorsport I'll be happy to set aside the time, travel and money to watch. There's a parallel with airshows for me: I saw some of the best from around 1969 onwards, and the excitement was what got me hooked. I joined the RAF as an aircraft tech partly because air shows sold excitement to me. I've been involved in motorsport but not as a competitor. From about 1987 to 1990 i helped Brian and Liz Patterson distribute their Rally News newsletters during the larger rallies for example. And I was really happy to help, just to be involved, help out, be part of it all.
My nearest round of the British Rally Championship was almost a thing, then cancelled after a year I think. And from what I could see, the spectator experience was poor, the usual reasons.
Drag racing grabbed me for a while, incredibly exciting being on the start line, camera at my face, Top Methanol dragsters a feet away. Then covid, lost friendships, blah blah blah.
Oh i dunno, I'm a lost cause!
ArnageWRC said:
Another McRae thread, and like all the others, it ends up the same way.
Indeed , wrote something similar late last night then deleted in hindsight , it was slightly more pointed. Wonder how many of these anti McRae folks ever saw the man himself in action ? I'd emigrated before Colin passed away and therefore missed all these negative comments and the vitriol .I do not really think it is vitriol I think you will find some negative stuff but I have tried to balance out the downsides about eh accident with some stuff I will always remember, he gave so many people so much joy, and he was also universally liked apart from maybe in Spain when he was Carlos's team mate and going against him but those two were firm friends even then.
His kind do not come around that often, I can only hope to imagine what he would have been like in the 70's and early 80's! Imagine him in an RS200 or a 205 or Delta!!
His kind do not come around that often, I can only hope to imagine what he would have been like in the 70's and early 80's! Imagine him in an RS200 or a 205 or Delta!!
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