RE: INEOS Grenadier officially unveiled
Discussion
Genuine question for anyone considering the Grenadier:
Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
LimaDelta said:
Genuine question for anyone considering the Grenadier:
Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
Better engines, better gearbox, Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
Better axles/halfshafts not made from cheese
Proper 4 link suspension on the front for greater articulation/off road ability
Locking axle differentials
Interior ergonomics that don't date to 1983 and 5 1/2 feet tall people
Better NVH
Possibly better corrosion protection
LimaDelta said:
Genuine question for anyone considering the Grenadier:
Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
My late-ish 110 is like owning a classic car, I drive it for holidays, travel and fun both on and off road. Like owning a Morgan or an old MG or something. I can work on it myself as a hobby and I’ve been far and wide across Europe and into Africa with it. I can tailor and change the interior very easily to match our use. There is a great community around the world too, despite the piss taking that goes on in these parts. It’s a piece of leisure equipment that supports our travelling mainly. But it is old, it does have its flaws and I like to reserve it for use when it is enjoyable to do so. Also, whilst it is a simple vehicle, they are quite high maintenance if you want to rely on them for long distance travel.Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
What the Grenadier potentially offers me is a continuation of that ethos that I could use much more frequently and with less concern for whether it will need a minor overhaul when I get home The proposed robustness appeals, whether I need it or not. If we want to go to to the Sahara we could jump in and go without needing to worry so much whether all the drive flanges need replacing or the adapter shaft from the gearbox to the transfer box is likely to wear out as is the case now. The Grenadier may also pick up some of the Defender cult too which would be fun.
I’ve only been stranded 3 times in distant places, but each time due to more modern JLR products I was with, so I wouldn’t buy one of those regardless as I don’t believe they make their vehicles robust enough.
I appreciate there are relatively few people looking for this, so am not saying Ineos should base a business on it, but if the vehicle succeeds, that’s why I’ll look at buying one. If 70 series Land Cruisers were available here I’d be looking at those too. The UK commercial land cruiser is an option, but the Ineos just looks a better proposition to me.
LimaDelta said:
Genuine question for anyone considering the Grenadier:
Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
A good question. Why buy this over a Defender (legacy, not new. I hesitate to use the word 'proper') for half the price, and use the remaining funds to run it, given the relative ease of maintenance and high level of 3rd party/indie support? I understand NGO/utilities etc will lease and want a 'new' vehicle, but for the general car-buying public what does it offer that a TD5 or more recent TDCi Defender does not?
I think it comes down to it being a new vehicle. With a warranty. And by the looks of it, having addressed the pitfalls of the Defender. Such as the entire driveline. The Puma engine is also a big let down. And the general construction techniques that always result in leaks and creaks.
I think the Grenadier essentially represents what lots of people try to achieve by modifying a 110. Only home build efforts are never as good.
Bill said:
He has a point, as much as the 3l BMW is desirable, it's not exactly a commercial engine.
I suspect it’s tied in to the same reason that they’ve made it a visual copy of the old Defender. Lifestyle. It’s going to be a reasonably expensive car for what it is and they’ve made no pretence that they are going after the lifestyle market. BMW were probably the best partner in that space and more willing to deal plus supply their hybrid tech which this will need within a few years for the lifestyle market especially. It wouldn’t make sense to go V8 and I suspect they know their key retail market would prefer more cylinders than 4. Few straight 6s to choose from and BMW have said they will keep making them until 2035 or until battery tech becomes efficient for real world ease of use.
LimaDelta said:
To the above two posters, all well and good - so my follow up is, what does the Grenadier do that a Hilux (for example), or as you say a Landcruiser Commercial will not?
There are certain intangibles aren’t there? Sometimes people just like something more than something else, maybe because of the way it looks, feels or whatever. Maybe I just like Grenadiers flavour of marketing b
ks more that JLRs.The UK Land Cruiser is no doubt good, I’ve driven them professionally, but it’s hard to get excited about them. The 70 series Land Cruiser on the other hand is wonderful thing to me, despite it being technically inferior in many ways, although much heavier duty. Heart can often rule head, especially for leisure vehicles. We are all on PH because vehicles are more than just a tool for a job.
Then you’ve got the argument over how much capability do I really need. Probably not as much as I think. But there is something nice about having something with great, but unnecessary capability. Like Rolex Sea Dweller, no one really dives that deep do they? Who really uses that thing for cleaning a horses hoof on a Swiss Army knife? It doesn’t matter, it just nice to know you could if you needed to.
I’ve no interest in a double cab pickup really for my use, a station wagon is more practical.
LimaDelta said:
To the above two posters, all well and good - so my follow up is, what does the Grenadier do that a Hilux (for example), or as you say a Landcruiser Commercial will not?
Well, 4 link live axle vs independent suspension is a big difference and subsequent off-road capability.Than there is ability to bolt things to it, flat panels are easy to modify as opposed to curved surfaces. Flat front wings are better for standing on/using as a workbench.
The interior is supposed to be durable and can be hosed out.
Does the Land Cruiser have a chassis cab option? Is it available as a SWB, LWB/double cab pickup?
The grenadier is more of a purpose built working tool as opposed to a car which has been adapted.
As someone who previously owned Defenders and now owns Toyotas I'm definitely interested.
The BMW engines are a slight concern though - while they're reasonably reliable in a 3 series, it'll be interesting to see how they cope with pulling a 6 tonne train weight around.
If they are serious about selling to the third world, then I'd imagine they'll need to find an older mechanical engine and gearbox.
Even Toyota, who's UK spec diesels are hardly highly stressed cutting edge performance units, continue to sell basic manual Land Cruisers with the 129bhp naturally aspirated straight six 4.2 diesel for those who need ultimate durability and ease of repair.
The BMW engines are a slight concern though - while they're reasonably reliable in a 3 series, it'll be interesting to see how they cope with pulling a 6 tonne train weight around.
If they are serious about selling to the third world, then I'd imagine they'll need to find an older mechanical engine and gearbox.
Even Toyota, who's UK spec diesels are hardly highly stressed cutting edge performance units, continue to sell basic manual Land Cruisers with the 129bhp naturally aspirated straight six 4.2 diesel for those who need ultimate durability and ease of repair.
blueST said:
Who really uses that thing for cleaning a horses hoof on a Swiss Army knife? It doesn’t matter, it just nice to know you could if you needed to.
A top of the range Swiss Champ isn't a lot of use really, but a simpler multi tool with a blade, screw drivers, bottle opener, can opener, saw, corkscrew and pliers/grips, covers most bases.Something that can cope with the Rubicon or Darién Gap, although probably more effective, is a bit like the Swiss Champ for most people.
LimaDelta said:
To the above two posters, all well and good - so my follow up is, what does the Grenadier do that a Hilux (for example), or as you say a Landcruiser Commercial will not?
I don’t dislike the Toyotas. But if I’m honest they are rather fugly looking. They have zero visual appeal. They are also IFS. And I’d place the LC more akin to a Discovery counterpart. Bit more rounded and comfort orientated. If Toyota offered the Tacoma or 4Runner in the UK. I’d be more interested in those from their range. There are other pickup trucks I’d consider. I have no need for commercial offerings. So the Ranger Raptor appeals. I also very much like the Chevy Colorado ZR2.
I’d also see the Wrangler as an option. Albeit they are too expensive in the UK vs US prices and product placement. And I suspect the new Ford Bronco would also make my list as an alternative.
I wouldn’t 100% rule out the new Defender. But in this company it is certainly the softer more plush offering. And almost feels out of place. I also can’t get the configurator to come up with anything less than £55k. If the Grenadier is £15k or even £20k cheaper. I’d have a real hard time justifying where the extra money was actually going.
A bit like with the Wrangler. I liked it very much. And while I’ll concede it is better than my Jimny. The Wrangler cost £31,000 more than the Jimny. And it just isn’t 2 1/2 times better.
MC Bodge said:
blueST said:
Who really uses that thing for cleaning a horses hoof on a Swiss Army knife? It doesn’t matter, it just nice to know you could if you needed to.
A top of the range Swiss Champ isn't a lot of use really, but a simpler multi tool with a blade, screw drivers, bottle opener, can opener, saw, corkscrew and pliers/grips, covers most bases.Something that can cope with the Rubicon or Darién Gap, although probably more effective, is a bit like the Swiss Champ for most people.
Combined with a leatherman wingman, my now middle aged home body needs are very well covered.
TurboBlue said:
Well, that is proper old school - I quite like it (happy memories of my Mk1 Shogun come to mind); pricing and reliability will be everything I think; as an aside, how are they going to sell it. On-line only?
Daewoo tried selling without dealerships and failed. Admittedly previous generation Vauxhall’s weren’t exciting, but look at Renault’s success with basic Dacia, with dealers. Maybe these workshops that “posh up” old Derenders will become dealerships. Hope it succeeds.Repeating what has been said many times on here, as the money no object Virginia Water and Alderney Edge set will continue to buy Land Rover, I hope they don’t price themselves out of the market.Edited by Lester H on Saturday 4th July 11:58
Sway said:
MC Bodge said:
blueST said:
Who really uses that thing for cleaning a horses hoof on a Swiss Army knife? It doesn’t matter, it just nice to know you could if you needed to.
A top of the range Swiss Champ isn't a lot of use really, but a simpler multi tool with a blade, screw drivers, bottle opener, can opener, saw, corkscrew and pliers/grips, covers most bases.Something that can cope with the Rubicon or Darién Gap, although probably more effective, is a bit like the Swiss Champ for most people.
Combined with a leatherman wingman, my now middle aged home body needs are very well covered.
Sway said:
MC Bodge said:
blueST said:
Who really uses that thing for cleaning a horses hoof on a Swiss Army knife? It doesn’t matter, it just nice to know you could if you needed to.
A top of the range Swiss Champ isn't a lot of use really, but a simpler multi tool with a blade, screw drivers, bottle opener, can opener, saw, corkscrew and pliers/grips, covers most bases.Something that can cope with the Rubicon or Darién Gap, although probably more effective, is a bit like the Swiss Champ for most people.
Combined with a leatherman wingman, my now middle aged home body needs are very well covered.
skyrover said:
LimaDelta said:
To the above two posters, all well and good - so my follow up is, what does the Grenadier do that a Hilux (for example), or as you say a Landcruiser Commercial will not?
Well, 4 link live axle vs independent suspension is a big difference and subsequent off-road capability.Than there is ability to bolt things to it, flat panels are easy to modify as opposed to curved surfaces. Flat front wings are better for standing on/using as a workbench.
The interior is supposed to be durable and can be hosed out.
Does the Land Cruiser have a chassis cab option? Is it available as a SWB, LWB/double cab pickup?
The grenadier is more of a purpose built working tool as opposed to a car which has been adapted.
A few other posters have already alluded to this, but is it really all just because it looks a bit like a legacy Defender? It this as much of a 'styling' exercise as the JLR effort?
If the Grenadier was as 'fugly' as a Landcruiser commercial, would it be receiving even half as much love on here as it is now?
Sway said:
I've had a Swiss champ for over 20 years. At some point, every single thing on it has been pretty much the perfect option.
Combined with a leatherman wingman, my now middle aged home body needs are very well covered.
Do you wear a good utility belt to carry them around on your body? Combined with a leatherman wingman, my now middle aged home body needs are very well covered.
blueST said:
I think you chaps are perhaps the exception that proves the rule. What I was trying to say is that many people buy things that have functions and capabilities that they don’t need just because they are nice thingsto have and gives the owners pleasure. If I take a completely dispassionate and rational view of the Grenadier, it would probably not the best choice for most of my usage, and when I do go off road it’d may well be way more than I need. That doesn’t stop me wanting one more than the on-paper more suitable options.
I am fairly utilitarian in my views and possessions.I am, however, the person in my office who people ask to fix things or borrow tools/Swiss army knife from.
I like the idea of the Grenadier, but would have no need for any of its off-road abilities, so wouldn't consider buying one. If I needed a road car that could cope with more difficult conditions, I'd buy a Duster.
300bhp/ton said:
If the Grenadier is £15k or even £20k cheaper. I’d have a real hard time justifying where the extra money was actually going
Can’t be many easier arguments than objectively justifying why a Defender costs more than a Grenadier (If, indeed, you choose one that does) - even if Ineos haven’t borrowed any of the 1950s chassis/suspension tech, it’s hardly breaking new ground to develop or build. MC Bodge said:
I am fairly utilitarian in my views and possessions.
I am, however, the person in my office who people ask to fix things or borrow tools/Swiss army knife from.
I like the idea of the Grenadier, but would have no need for any of its off-road abilities, so wouldn't consider buying one. If I needed a road car that could cope with more difficult conditions, I'd buy a Duster.
And there’s nothing wrong with that, I’m a little like that myself, but not quite full on Spock levels of detached logic. I would say I reckon that most people when buying a big ticket luxury item like a car aren’t so dispassionate about it and emotion does play a important part. If it didn’t, there’d be no need for Evo or Top Gear magazine, or all the marketing w***k, we’d just all subscribe to Fleet World.I am, however, the person in my office who people ask to fix things or borrow tools/Swiss army knife from.
I like the idea of the Grenadier, but would have no need for any of its off-road abilities, so wouldn't consider buying one. If I needed a road car that could cope with more difficult conditions, I'd buy a Duster.
Whilst not enough to sustain an entire car business, the recreational 4x4 market, particularly in the US and Australia, is significant and could prove lucrative for Ineos. The biggest hurdle there will be brand acceptance as opposed to capability of the product. Rightly or wrongly, having solid axles is a big thing in those markets.
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