RE: INEOS Grenadier officially unveiled
Discussion
blueST said:
Oh I see. No idea, but the leisure/lifestyle 4x4 world is a broad church, especially at an international level. Look at events like Overland Expo in the US and you can see there are a significant number of people spending large amounts on new and nearly new off road vehicles. It's not all £1500 rotten Discoveries.
To be clear, I'm not saying this enough to sustain the Grenadier by itself, but it is a useful market they can tap into.
I think this is an important point. To be clear, I'm not saying this enough to sustain the Grenadier by itself, but it is a useful market they can tap into.
People act like everyone in Australia, for example, is tooling around in 70 series Land Cruisers s. In reality people are in everything from fully kitted out, highly modified 79 series pickups and GU patrols to Rangers, Hilux and base spec wranglers. Not to mention all the bigger trucks and adventure caravans.
Again in America there's a growing market for Overlanding and touring vehicles.
I don't think this is any threat to the new defender. Nor is its success going to be measured against JLR sales. They're simply two different vehicles aimed at completely different people.
Even if it's just one stage of the final build process, it would still be good to have something in Wales. That said we're still at CGI stage and I'm yet to be convinced this can be a success.
iridium_moon said:
If you really can forklift a pallet into the back, if it’s reliable, comfortable on long distances and easy to drive, has modern instrumentation and electronics, and is priced to compete with commercial vans I see a huge market. I’d buy one for company use in a flash. I run a Sprinter which is always getting stuck on the rough sites we go to, our 110 TD5 Defender has too small a load volume and is too slow and uncomfortable for long distances. Our Unimog works, but it’s too much of a beast for daily use. Could this thing solve all those problems?
Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
Why wouldn’t you buy a new hard top Defender when it’s released? Seems to fit your euro pallet requirement Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
iridium_moon said:
If you really can forklift a pallet into the back, if it’s reliable, comfortable on long distances and easy to drive, has modern instrumentation and electronics, and is priced to compete with commercial vans I see a huge market. I’d buy one for company use in a flash. I run a Sprinter which is always getting stuck on the rough sites we go to, our 110 TD5 Defender has too small a load volume and is too slow and uncomfortable for long distances. Our Unimog works, but it’s too much of a beast for daily use. Could this thing solve all those problems?
Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
Why would you not just get a 4x4 sprinter? Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
Toaster Pilot said:
iridium_moon said:
If you really can forklift a pallet into the back, if it’s reliable, comfortable on long distances and easy to drive, has modern instrumentation and electronics, and is priced to compete with commercial vans I see a huge market. I’d buy one for company use in a flash. I run a Sprinter which is always getting stuck on the rough sites we go to, our 110 TD5 Defender has too small a load volume and is too slow and uncomfortable for long distances. Our Unimog works, but it’s too much of a beast for daily use. Could this thing solve all those problems?
Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
Why wouldn’t you buy a new hard top Defender when it’s released? Seems to fit your euro pallet requirement Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
Might be a pallet width/depth - but not sure how much it'll actually carry.
Compare with the grenadier - if you assume same aperture width (and I'd expect the grenadier's to be wider in reality):
travisc said:
MC Bodge said:
A standard Dacia Duster will wade enough for most scenarios and is good on loose surfaces. A heavier off-roader will cope with deeper/faster flowing floods, but if you are someone who doesn't need that capability for 364.5 days of the year, then why bother?
Oh simply because for those days of the year you do need it you really need it. I’m not saying the duster is a bad vehicle and if you are going through rivers it’s Probably fine. If you are out in floods though you don’t just want to make it and no more you want to make it with enough to spare and a lot of leeway. That would make me want more than 35cm which is what I think a duster has. Good enough for Most scenarios can be a bit of a problem if you go out say In iffy flooding or heavy snow make it ok but it’s still raining / snowing when you come back hours later and that bit of fording that was ok is now not ok anymore
I’m fairness most of the year it’s probably fine but I’ve driven 4x4s in iffy conditions I wouldn’t want to do in a softer suv. That’s what appeals to me about a ‘proper’ 4x4. That’s what I would pay the extra for a Grenadier for. I can’t think I’m the only one. There is quite a pull for a “will always get you there regardless vehicle” which is what I mean about there is probably a market for the person who wants the capability even if you rarely use it.
AngryPartsBloke said:
iridium_moon said:
If you really can forklift a pallet into the back, if it’s reliable, comfortable on long distances and easy to drive, has modern instrumentation and electronics, and is priced to compete with commercial vans I see a huge market. I’d buy one for company use in a flash. I run a Sprinter which is always getting stuck on the rough sites we go to, our 110 TD5 Defender has too small a load volume and is too slow and uncomfortable for long distances. Our Unimog works, but it’s too much of a beast for daily use. Could this thing solve all those problems?
Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
Why would you not just get a 4x4 sprinter? Looks the part too, which is never a bad thing in business.
Cheers, Mark, Ribbands Explosives (UK).
Sway said:
Roofline is bloody low once you take into account pallet height...
Might be a pallet width/depth - but not sure how much it'll actually carry.
Compare with the grenadier - if you assume same aperture width (and I'd expect the grenadier's to be wider in reality):
Isn't the Defender a fair bit (20cm iirc??) wider than the Grenadier?Might be a pallet width/depth - but not sure how much it'll actually carry.
Compare with the grenadier - if you assume same aperture width (and I'd expect the grenadier's to be wider in reality):
OTOH you can get a Transit with fwd and LSD or 4x4 now...
Bill said:
Sway said:
Roofline is bloody low once you take into account pallet height...
Might be a pallet width/depth - but not sure how much it'll actually carry.
Compare with the grenadier - if you assume same aperture width (and I'd expect the grenadier's to be wider in reality):
Isn't the Defender a fair bit (20cm iirc??) wider than the Grenadier?Might be a pallet width/depth - but not sure how much it'll actually carry.
Compare with the grenadier - if you assume same aperture width (and I'd expect the grenadier's to be wider in reality):
OTOH you can get a Transit with fwd and LSD or 4x4 now...
I'd still suggest based on current appearances (defender having more width outside the aperture, the lower total height taken up by the rear bumper, the seemingly taller and squarer roof) that the Grenadier will have appreciably more load volume for a euro pallet.
Sway said:
Maybe. I've not seen any official measurements for the Grenadier yet.
I'd still suggest based on current appearances (defender having more width outside the aperture, the lower total height taken up by the rear bumper, the seemingly taller and squarer roof) that the Grenadier will have appreciably more load volume for a euro pallet.
Appreciate it's all speculation, but the Grenadier rear lights are pretty big. It doesn't look there's much in it widthwise IMO, but you're right about the Defender bumper taking height away.I'd still suggest based on current appearances (defender having more width outside the aperture, the lower total height taken up by the rear bumper, the seemingly taller and squarer roof) that the Grenadier will have appreciably more load volume for a euro pallet.
LimaDelta said:
Ok, but again I'm talking about the general public, not utility companies doing repairwork.
A few other posters have already alluded to this, but is it really all just because it looks a bit like a legacy Defender? It this as much of a 'styling' exercise as the JLR effort?
If the Grenadier was as 'fugly' as a Landcruiser commercial, would it be receiving even half as much love on here as it is now?
Visuals sell. Not just cars, but most things in life. The Grenadier happens to have great visuals (imo) and great spec. Most of the buying public, and certainly those of ‘interesting’ vehicles. Will undoubtedly have this as a big part of their decision. Even if it isn’t a conscious one. A few other posters have already alluded to this, but is it really all just because it looks a bit like a legacy Defender? It this as much of a 'styling' exercise as the JLR effort?
If the Grenadier was as 'fugly' as a Landcruiser commercial, would it be receiving even half as much love on here as it is now?
whytheory said:
Glad to see I wasn't the only one who immediately saw the Santana resemblance.
‘
I don't really see the point of it but if they can make it work good luck to them.
The point of it is, presumably, to fill a gap in the market vacated by the Defender with its panel gaps (pun unintended) so wide you could get in without opening the door, and the well earned nickname of Deafener, which was also a workhorse. If they can make it work, as you say, it will ‘fly’......at the right price.‘
I don't really see the point of it but if they can make it work good luck to them.
300bhp/ton said:
LimaDelta said:
Ok, but again I'm talking about the general public, not utility companies doing repairwork.
A few other posters have already alluded to this, but is it really all just because it looks a bit like a legacy Defender? It this as much of a 'styling' exercise as the JLR effort?
If the Grenadier was as 'fugly' as a Landcruiser commercial, would it be receiving even half as much love on here as it is now?
Visuals sell. Not just cars, but most things in life. The Grenadier happens to have great visuals (imo) and great spec. Most of the buying public, and certainly those of ‘interesting’ vehicles. Will undoubtedly have this as a big part of their decision. Even if it isn’t a conscious one. A few other posters have already alluded to this, but is it really all just because it looks a bit like a legacy Defender? It this as much of a 'styling' exercise as the JLR effort?
If the Grenadier was as 'fugly' as a Landcruiser commercial, would it be receiving even half as much love on here as it is now?
Lester H said:
As LH I agree with LD. However, we need to factor in the inverted snobbery of purely functional vehicles. Our s.w.b Land Cruiser was no beauty and the interior was like a Corolla but it was so honest and its integrity was evident when you raised the bonnet to check the two commercial sized batteries on either side of the big slam panel. To cut the waffle I like the visuals of the Grenadier and the new LR., but utility can also be an attraction: how did Renault 4 sales exceed 8 million.
Because the Renault 4 was cheap, primarily. Basic, cheap utility sells (Dacia, Renault 4). And reliable utility sells (see Toyota). And funky/lifestyle utility sells (wrangler).Come to think of it maybe it’s those other factors that are more important than the actual function or utility!
SuperPav said:
Because the Renault 4 was cheap, primarily. Basic, cheap utility sells (Dacia, Renault 4). And reliable utility sells (see Toyota). And funky/lifestyle utility sells (wrangler).
Come to think of it maybe it’s those other factors that are more important than the actual function or utility!
Wrangler isn’t utility. It is more akin to an MX-5/Elise. Ie it is recreational. Come to think of it maybe it’s those other factors that are more important than the actual function or utility!
SuperPav said:
Because the Renault 4 was cheap, primarily. Basic, cheap utility sells (Dacia, Renault 4). And reliable utility sells (see Toyota). And funky/lifestyle utility sells (wrangler).
Come to think of it maybe it’s those other factors that are more important than the actual function or utility!
More importantly, people were poor. Raleigh sold a lot of bikes back when people were even poorer. We have credit now so it’s hardly a surprise that people in the West have charged as hard as they can away from such products, despite them being perfectly useable still today. Come to think of it maybe it’s those other factors that are more important than the actual function or utility!
TurboBlue said:
Well, that is proper old school - I quite like it (happy memories of my Mk1 Shogun come to mind); pricing and reliability will be everything I think; as an aside, how are they going to sell it. On-line only?
From what I have read... engineered in conjunction with Magna and they're using BMW engines. So it's got half a chance of being decent reliability wise.300bhp/ton said:
Wrangler isn’t utility. It is more akin to an MX-5/Elise. Ie it is recreational.
Yes and... In one of those fascinating discoveries about product segments and product substitutions, a great number of Wrangler buyers are trading in a Boxster or Cayman (at least in the Wrangler's domestic market):https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/09/porsche-boxste...
MC Bodge said:
Of course there are some who might need something that can wade floods etc. It didn't sound as if you were the sort of person that required it, though.
I’m not at least 97% of the time. Most of the time I don’t in the same way most of the places in England that got flooded are probably dryish as a bone just now but if they’re bad you don’t want to be driving through them without a capable vehicle. If you live in a village (as we do) occasionally when it’s very bad it’s horrid.
I’ve only had to go out a handful of times when the rest of the country had thought better of the idea but having to do so when you pass either an abandoned council snow plough or ambulance caught in a flood makes you want a fairly hardcore vehicle with multiple locking diffs ; high air intakes for wading etc. And I’m in no way suggesting I’m a hardcore off raider I was just going to and from work!
For the other 97% you want comfort which is why I have driven discos; Jeep Grands; shoguns. I wouldn’t put up with a series LR or old Defender for that level of discomfort but by 2020 I am hoping Grenadier / BMW can engineer something as comfortable as a 2000 Jeep Grand (live axles but comfy and dry). I don’t need it to be as comfy as a car but if it’s got half decent Comfort which a modernist vehicle should it’s a bit easier to live with and justify for occasional users like me.
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