RE: INEOS Grenadier officially unveiled
Discussion
No one is going to sell 25,000 a year, the G-Class only sold between 1100 and 3000 per year over the last 20 years, the new facelift model sold just 7350 last year.
That includes the habib habib 6x6AMG bro is best Bro silly stuff and convertibles.
The G-Wagen already do military versions of it with the same proven life as the LandCruiser and a solid back catalogue as they have the same platform over 40 years.
Good luck pitching them on a BMW X3 based 4x4 dressed in cargo pants and a leatherman pouch.
That includes the habib habib 6x6AMG bro is best Bro silly stuff and convertibles.
The G-Wagen already do military versions of it with the same proven life as the LandCruiser and a solid back catalogue as they have the same platform over 40 years.
Good luck pitching them on a BMW X3 based 4x4 dressed in cargo pants and a leatherman pouch.
unsprung said:
PH article said:
Land Rover had never actually got around to trademarking the shape of the original Defender while it was in production.
This boggles the mind. Intellectual property and brand are everything.Although there is a certain basic look to the category, distinction is possible. It requires, however, a joined-up approach, across teams, that apparently was overlooked at JLR.
PH article said:
Key to the Grenadier's success (or failure) will be international sales, with the company committing to the considerable costs of homologating it for the United States.
With an unstressed V8 under the bonnet, the Grenadier might form a sizable niche, Stateside.However... With BMW engines and a vast continent to cover (in terms of dealership support), will this vehicle be in the US anything other than a toy for the better off?
Nobody is predicting, are they, that the Grenadier will in any way disrupt the extensive and keenly-contested US marketplace of pickup trucks (to include the 4x4 and full-fat commercial and fleet varieties), are they?
Am I wrong to guess that US sales volume will be rather Lotus-like? (less than one unit sold per day, annually)
You can’t just bribe an NGO or any commercial procurement director to take your product. The product still has to tick all the key boxes before you can fill up the chap’s Swiss bank account. So, being homogates for EU and US pretty much achieves that and releases your team of Manila Handlers to do what it takes.
JLR not trademarking the shape is a weird one. If we think a little deeper, not only did JLR not donso but Ford chose not to, BMW chose not to, as did Rover and Leyland. Throughout the history of the vehicle the owners who all had departments dedicated to this exact task chose not to or were not able to trademark.
Id wager there is more to that story.
EyeHeartSpellin said:
595Heaven said:
As it says in article I think it's actually a hatch to store wet items in a sealed box in boot. Seems like a genius idea.
Looks good (better than the new Defender, IMO which is just another Discovery clone).
The challenge will be getting the price right, and being able to make a profit. Simple, robust cars should be cheap. Unfortunately, making cars out of nuts and bolts is really hard, as anyone who has restored an old Land Rover will know. Making it look good, with decent shut lines and non leaky windows takes hours. Getting it right, every time on a production line will be expensive.
The challenge will be getting the price right, and being able to make a profit. Simple, robust cars should be cheap. Unfortunately, making cars out of nuts and bolts is really hard, as anyone who has restored an old Land Rover will know. Making it look good, with decent shut lines and non leaky windows takes hours. Getting it right, every time on a production line will be expensive.
camel_landy said:
Watching with interest.
As the saying goes though: "The proof of the pudding will be in the eating." but either way, it's great news for Bridgend.
With any vehicle, especially with a commercial vehicle, it needs to be reliable. If they get their quality control nailed, they could be in with something here... Assuming there is actually enough of a space in the market for them.
Not sure if it was covered in the article but it does look as though it has independent front suspension, with a live axle on the rear. I can understand why but it might upset one or two of the purists here.
It'll also be interesting to see how the emissions are dealt with as damaging exhaust systems with DPFs & AdBlue, get very expensive, very quickly!!
My 2p
M
A balanced post. As the saying goes though: "The proof of the pudding will be in the eating." but either way, it's great news for Bridgend.
With any vehicle, especially with a commercial vehicle, it needs to be reliable. If they get their quality control nailed, they could be in with something here... Assuming there is actually enough of a space in the market for them.
Not sure if it was covered in the article but it does look as though it has independent front suspension, with a live axle on the rear. I can understand why but it might upset one or two of the purists here.
It'll also be interesting to see how the emissions are dealt with as damaging exhaust systems with DPFs & AdBlue, get very expensive, very quickly!!
My 2p
M
Though, I have doubted with the new Defender not offering direct manual control of its mechanical off road components and its curvy exterior design, I actually in support of the newer chassis and suspension technologies it brings. So, for me at least having IFS on those old school 4x4s is an improvement. Well, the original Hamvee had independent suspensions all round. Is anybody doubting its off road abilities?
sisu said:
No one is going to sell 25,000 a year, the G-Class only sold between 1100 and 3000 per year over the last 20 years, the new facelift model sold just 7350 last year.
That includes the habib habib 6x6AMG bro is best Bro silly stuff and convertibles.
The G-Wagen already do military versions of it with the same proven life as the LandCruiser and a solid back catalogue as they have the same platform over 40 years.
Good luck pitching them on a BMW X3 based 4x4 dressed in cargo pants and a leatherman pouch.
Elsewhere they have said that 25,000/annum is the break even point for sales. Not the target but the floor. That includes the habib habib 6x6AMG bro is best Bro silly stuff and convertibles.
The G-Wagen already do military versions of it with the same proven life as the LandCruiser and a solid back catalogue as they have the same platform over 40 years.
Good luck pitching them on a BMW X3 based 4x4 dressed in cargo pants and a leatherman pouch.
In Autocar they’ve also said that prices start above £40k.
In the same article the company also said that if you’re used to driving cars that don’t handle well you should be ok driving this thing on the roads.
I think the problem with selling this to retail in the UK is that it’s starting price is well North of the average UK salary. It’s 1x lowest level higher rate tax payer.
So Brexit Jim, statistically, needs to find non Remainers who are higher rate tax payers but have a need for a vehicle that doesn’t work on roads very well but as good off road as a Defender. But is like a kit car copynof a Defender.
I think you can fleet sell them to cash rich NGOs and conglomerates such as Ineos itself but the retail consumer will be a very niche market. £40k+ to go and smash something around an off road course, which you can do for a few K or for a farmer to drive around in when he can get a pick-up for a lot less? And if you need the load space then a van is designed to drive on road and can carry more.
It’s the answer to many PH dreams but starting at £40k I suspect it’s more of a wall poster than a reality?
595Heaven said:
EyeHeartSpellin said:
595Heaven said:
As it says in article I think it's actually a hatch to store wet items in a sealed box in boot. Seems like a genius idea.DonkeyApple said:
I suspect that US homogation has much more to do with Global Market Access than intending to kick off a serious retail drive in the US itself.
You can’t just bribe an NGO or any commercial procurement director to take your product. The product still has to tick all the key boxes before you can fill up the chap’s Swiss bank account. So, being homogates for EU and US pretty much achieves that and releases your team of Manila Handlers to do what it takes.
JLR not trademarking the shape is a weird one. If we think a little deeper, not only did JLR not donso but Ford chose not to, BMW chose not to, as did Rover and Leyland. Throughout the history of the vehicle the owners who all had departments dedicated to this exact task chose not to or were not able to trademark.
Id wager there is more to that story.
Indeed...You can’t just bribe an NGO or any commercial procurement director to take your product. The product still has to tick all the key boxes before you can fill up the chap’s Swiss bank account. So, being homogates for EU and US pretty much achieves that and releases your team of Manila Handlers to do what it takes.
JLR not trademarking the shape is a weird one. If we think a little deeper, not only did JLR not donso but Ford chose not to, BMW chose not to, as did Rover and Leyland. Throughout the history of the vehicle the owners who all had departments dedicated to this exact task chose not to or were not able to trademark.
Id wager there is more to that story.
I wonder if the original Mini was trademarked ? Maybe it's something to do with the age of the product that IP (Intellectual Property) just wasn't viewed as important as it is today ?
It's interesting that if you search under morris cars or austin you don't find anything - first entries seem to be in the 1970's with British Leyland.
This looks pretty good overall.
As a previous Defender owner (had one of the last new ones in 2016), what's interesting is that the old Defender was the best brand new classic car you could buy, but it was an awful new car. The car's compromises (unreliability, discomfort etc.) were only tolerable to the lifestyle brigade, in the same way we tolerate our beloved 40 year old classics. Utility or real professional use just wouldn't accept that level of quality/unrefinement - For the same price a Hilux/Ranger/ basic Disco does a better job if you need to haul a trailer all day long up and down the country.
So with the Grenadier, I suspect the same will apply. If they get the quality done right, then it will open up a whole load of opportunity - yes you can now use this as a work vehicle for 12 hours a day without getting a bruised elbow, one burnt knee and bachache. Great!
Otherwise, if it still has the same reliability/quality issues as the old Defender have, then the only people that will accept it WILL be the lifestyle brigade.
I think it'll do well as a lifestyle car personally, it looks to have a lot of useful additions to the old Defender while still keeping the Defender/Jimny/Wrangler appearance. I just wonder what INEOS will do if they realise that's the market that actually buys the car, and whether its positioning will change as a result. It's all good pitching it at utility providers but if there's loads of demand from the Middle East for dune-bashing spec with lavish interiors, one would be silly not to offer that...
25,000 (once ramped up and sales channels across the world established over a few years) seems ambitious, but I wouldn't say completely unrealistic.
Now if they could bring out an electric one....
As a previous Defender owner (had one of the last new ones in 2016), what's interesting is that the old Defender was the best brand new classic car you could buy, but it was an awful new car. The car's compromises (unreliability, discomfort etc.) were only tolerable to the lifestyle brigade, in the same way we tolerate our beloved 40 year old classics. Utility or real professional use just wouldn't accept that level of quality/unrefinement - For the same price a Hilux/Ranger/ basic Disco does a better job if you need to haul a trailer all day long up and down the country.
So with the Grenadier, I suspect the same will apply. If they get the quality done right, then it will open up a whole load of opportunity - yes you can now use this as a work vehicle for 12 hours a day without getting a bruised elbow, one burnt knee and bachache. Great!
Otherwise, if it still has the same reliability/quality issues as the old Defender have, then the only people that will accept it WILL be the lifestyle brigade.
I think it'll do well as a lifestyle car personally, it looks to have a lot of useful additions to the old Defender while still keeping the Defender/Jimny/Wrangler appearance. I just wonder what INEOS will do if they realise that's the market that actually buys the car, and whether its positioning will change as a result. It's all good pitching it at utility providers but if there's loads of demand from the Middle East for dune-bashing spec with lavish interiors, one would be silly not to offer that...
25,000 (once ramped up and sales channels across the world established over a few years) seems ambitious, but I wouldn't say completely unrealistic.
Now if they could bring out an electric one....
It looks amazing, but I'm stunned that JLR lost their legal battle against the design. That said, it deserves to succeed.
But it will live or die on pricing. The internet appears to hate Defender for many reasons, one of which is because it's too expensive.
So "everyone" is "waiting for Grenadier" to come along and be the car Defender "should have been".
But so far, all the press direction point to £30k upwards pricing, and this pricing was also omitted from their press release.
And this is only £5k less than the Defender Commercial. So I'm struggling to see the issue.
Of course none of this matters because I would speculate 99.99% of the people "waiting for Grenadier" are actually in no position to buy it. And through no fault of it's own it's about to launch into a woefully crippled economy, with an apparent target market of exactly the people who will have less money to spend.
But it will live or die on pricing. The internet appears to hate Defender for many reasons, one of which is because it's too expensive.
So "everyone" is "waiting for Grenadier" to come along and be the car Defender "should have been".
But so far, all the press direction point to £30k upwards pricing, and this pricing was also omitted from their press release.
And this is only £5k less than the Defender Commercial. So I'm struggling to see the issue.
Of course none of this matters because I would speculate 99.99% of the people "waiting for Grenadier" are actually in no position to buy it. And through no fault of it's own it's about to launch into a woefully crippled economy, with an apparent target market of exactly the people who will have less money to spend.
Edited by piman2k on Wednesday 1st July 09:41
https://www.riversidemotors.co.uk/mitsubishi/fleet...
Half the price of this (from the Autocar article) with proven reliability, dealers and a tonne of spare parts. Why would anyone buy the Grenadier over an L200 for a commercial business unless it was purely an image thing?
Half the price of this (from the Autocar article) with proven reliability, dealers and a tonne of spare parts. Why would anyone buy the Grenadier over an L200 for a commercial business unless it was purely an image thing?
oilit said:
Indeed...
I wonder if the original Mini was trademarked ? Maybe it's something to do with the age of the product that IP (Intellectual Property) just wasn't viewed as important as it is today ?
It's interesting that if you search under morris cars or austin you don't find anything - first entries seem to be in the 1970's with British Leyland.
The Mini shape/silhouette was trademarked, but not until the 1990s when Rover (under BMW) began properly leveraging the Mini's lifestyle/fashion status and its value as 'a Mini' - when you started getting Coopers with wood dashboards and leather seats and foglalamps and Union Jack-painted roofs from the factory, and when they were selling them abroad for the same price as a Porsche 911. I wonder if the original Mini was trademarked ? Maybe it's something to do with the age of the product that IP (Intellectual Property) just wasn't viewed as important as it is today ?
It's interesting that if you search under morris cars or austin you don't find anything - first entries seem to be in the 1970's with British Leyland.
It's seeing the value and cachet in the design, arguably something LR should have done in the early 2000s when the Defender underwent a similar shift in image.
The searches you're getting probably relate to the time when 'Mini' was created as a marque in its own right rather than as a model of Austin or Morris.
piman2k said:
wisbech said:
I think it will be the GT86. The car every one says they want, but they will still buy a FWD hot hatch/ soft SUV.
Couldn't have said it better myself.There is a big wide world out there to sell the Grenadier to.
P.S. good job the pub Jim and friends were chatting in wasn't called one of these ...
https://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/the-23-weirdest...
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